In general I say Maru's TvT is on the same level as TY. And TY looked a bit better than Gumi until he choked. Then again Maru stomped byuN so hard.....
On June 14 2017 06:41 Fango wrote: In general I say Maru's TvT is on the same level as TY. And TY looked a bit better than Gumi until he choked. Then again Maru stomped byuN so hard.....
I bet on Gumi but I want Maru to win
In interview ByuN said that Maru practised with TY and he was beating him most of the time, so probably he is level above TY.
Maru is too good, even TY who is a level below Maru atm stomped gumiho pretty hard and I really dont expect Maru to choke so much and throw away his victory... 4:2
On June 14 2017 06:41 Fango wrote: In general I say Maru's TvT is on the same level as TY. And TY looked a bit better than Gumi until he choked. Then again Maru stomped byuN so hard.....
I bet on Gumi but I want Maru to win
In interview ByuN said that Maru practised with TY and he was beating him most of the time, so probably he is level above TY.
Indeed his form vs byuN last week was amazing. Would have been a 3-0 if not for that base trade in g2
On June 14 2017 06:41 Fango wrote:And TY looked a bit better than Gumi until he choked.
Interesting how two people can watch the same games and get completely different feelings from them. I thought GuMiho looked better than TY but lost games due to overstaying his welcome rather than backing off after securing a nice early game advantage and he immediately started winning when he stopped doing that.
So conflicted. Half of me wants Maru to crush GuMiho because having a TvT sniper in the finals is just so stupid. The other half wants GuMiho to win so soO can stomp the shit outta him and finally win a GSL.
On the bright side, I'd love to see either Maru or soO as champion.
I dont really know who to vote for, i would like to see Maru win so he could get the GSL trophy he deserves. On other hand i hope Gumiho wins so Soo wouldn't choke and finally become GSL champion (if he defeats Classic)
I love GuMiho, and I especially love that he's in such great form lately. But I want Maru to go all the way this time, and I think he can do it. I have a feeling Gumi might just take this match, but it could easily be a stomp in Maru's favour for all I know. This one is tough to call.
Hey guys. I will not be around to post recommended polls. So if someone could do me a favor and post them in my place please. They are already made and ready. All you need to do is just copy/paste.
On June 14 2017 16:42 Diabolique wrote: Maru! What a pity about Rogue ...
Pretty much 100% what I think as well.
It was very painful ... he had it done and was already in the finals (after beating a protoss in the semis). But 5 seconds, when he could not get through to soO's drones and finish it, cost him everything.
Somehow funny that when Maru was on the top of his skill, when he was the best terran in the world, in the last year of Proleague, he was always defeated by someone in early rounds. And now, when he just belongs among the TOP5 terrans, he has a shot at the trophy.
On June 14 2017 18:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I'm no expert on TvT, but is there any reason to not proxy reaper? Also is the best counter to proxy reaper to build more of your own reapers?
If GuMiho didn't waste his units on the counter attack he'd be really far ahead.
Lots of action happened for sure but it just imo not the highest skill level to play this game. It takes skill, alot of it to do that no doubt, just i think it more skill if we got a game to go past 10 minutes XD
Is there a single game that was improved from having the reaper grenade? With how many games were reuined by it there must be many, otherwise it would be removed from the game..... right?!
On June 14 2017 19:04 Vindicare605 wrote: Just got home, real quick what did I miss?
Game 1 - Gumibro proxy 2rax reaper into gg Game 2 - Maru proxy 2 rax into a bit of damage, if anything was behind due to reaper in his base at same time. Into Gumibro throws away many units trying to end game to early > Maru wins
On June 14 2017 19:05 DBooN wrote: Is there a single game that was improved from having the reaper grenade? With how many games were reuined by it there must be many, otherwise it would be removed from the game..... right?!
The mass reaper against mass ling two weeks ago, byun? against ???
On June 14 2017 19:05 DBooN wrote: Is there a single game that was improved from having the reaper grenade? With how many games were reuined by it there must be many, otherwise it would be removed from the game..... right?!
Can't think of one. But hey they increased the cooldown
LOL @ the song just played. "Rock out with your motherf*cking c*ck out" lol what is this? do they even listen to the songs before they decide to air them?
On June 14 2017 19:09 ReachTheSky wrote: LOL @ the song just played. "Rock out with your motherf*cking c*ck out" lol what is this? do they even listen to the songs before they decide to air them?
On June 14 2017 19:05 DBooN wrote: Is there a single game that was improved from having the reaper grenade? With how many games were reuined by it there must be many, otherwise it would be removed from the game..... right?!
Can't think of one. But hey they increased the cooldown
It's so fun to watch units bouncing left and right...btw not as fun as enjoying adepts shading left and right
On June 14 2017 19:09 ReachTheSky wrote: LOL @ the song just played. "Rock out with your motherf*cking c*ck out" lol what is this? do they even listen to the songs before they decide to air them?
Isn't that a line from Motörhead?
There's a much older Red Hot Chili Peppers botleg with that title but I'm sure the phrase is older than that too
On June 14 2017 20:06 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: somehow I think only Maru of these 4 semifinalists can beat Classic lol
Maybe at an earlier stage but ro4 soO has this easily
To make it clear, if soO always wins in semis and loses finals - we don't need next two matches, just give a trophy to gumiho and let soO his tears of second place, again. And Classic makes it solid top3-4.
On June 14 2017 20:12 Fango wrote: So Gumi was the only ro8 terran I didn't want to go to the final on the basis he will lose 4-0 or 4-1
He is playing pretty well, I only see Classic Stomping him. If SoO wins the semi then SoO will get a 3-4 loss against Gumiho because he is forever cursed.
On June 14 2017 20:12 Fango wrote: So Gumi was the only ro8 terran I didn't want to go to the final on the basis he will lose 4-0 or 4-1
He is playing pretty well, I only see Classic Stomping him. If SoO wins the semi then SoO will get a 3-4 loss against Gumiho because he is forever cursed.
Don't underestimate Gumi's TvP, it doesn't look very standard but he's very strong in the match-up
Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
Wow Gumiho reaching the GSL finals at last, I'll admit I didn't expect that T from the upper bracket. He'll have a shot at the title, though I'll favor Classic and soO in the upcoming finals.
On June 14 2017 20:31 [PkF] Wire wrote: Wow Gumiho reaching the GSL finals at last, I'll admit I didn't expect that T from the upper bracket. He'll have a shot at the title, though I'll favor Classic and soO in the upcoming finals.
He literally washed the floor with ByuL so his vZ must also be good. As much as i'd like soO to win, i'm favouring Gumiho. If Classic makes it, i am not certain who to favour.
On June 14 2017 20:31 [PkF] Wire wrote: Wow Gumiho reaching the GSL finals at last, I'll admit I didn't expect that T from the upper bracket. He'll have a shot at the title, though I'll favor Classic and soO in the upcoming finals.
He literally washed the floor with ByuL so his vZ must also be good. As much as i'd like soO to win, i'm favouring Gumiho. If Classic makes it, i am not certain who to favour.
ByuL played a horrible series. I'd definitely say TvZ is GuMiho's worst match-up but he's still good enough at it with his great range of builds and strategies.
On June 14 2017 20:12 Fango wrote: So Gumi was the only ro8 terran I didn't want to go to the final on the basis he will lose 4-0 or 4-1
He is playing pretty well, I only see Classic Stomping him. If SoO wins the semi then SoO will get a 3-4 loss against Gumiho because he is forever cursed.
Don't underestimate Gumi's TvP, it doesn't look very standard but he's very strong in the match-up
Can't wait to see a nice mixture of Mech & Bio vs soO in the finals. Heck yeah! Gimme dat 7 base vs 7 base Mech play on Abyssal. Plus gumiho plays a really awesome game on Ascension as well. His tank positioning is stellar. So pumped. In the end though, sorry Gumiho & Classic, this GSL is for soO!
On June 14 2017 20:25 Vanadiel wrote: Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
it's so hard to prepare for him. no other terran is playing mech at GuMiho's level
On June 14 2017 20:25 Vanadiel wrote: Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
it's so hard to prepare for him. no other terran is playing mech at GuMiho's level
you forgot InnoVation, I dont think anyone can surpass Inno's mech play in 2015.
On June 14 2017 20:25 Vanadiel wrote: Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
it's so hard to prepare for him. no other terran is playing mech at GuMiho's level
If soO makes the finals he'll have Innovation to practice with. I think that must be a huge plus. But he has to reach it first, soO vs Classic is a "classic" 50-50% for me.
And what a bad day for SC2 fan tbh, a TvT sniper being in a final guarantees a one-sided series for sure, there are huge gap in mechanic skill between Gumiho and either Classic or Soo, in a Bo7 non-mirror match up, there is 99% chance Soo or Classic will stomp the shit out of Gumiho. I feel sorry for Maru, Inno and TY.
On June 14 2017 22:05 ParksonVN wrote: And what a bad day for SC2 fan tbh, a TvT sniper being in a final guarantees a one-sided series for sure, there are huge gap in mechanic skill between Gumiho and either Classic or Soo, in a Bo7 non-mirror match up, there is 99% chance Soo or Classic will stomp the shit out of Gumiho. I feel sorry for Maru, Inno and TY.
On June 14 2017 22:05 ParksonVN wrote: And what a bad day for SC2 fan tbh, a TvT sniper being in a final guarantees a one-sided series for sure, there are huge gap in mechanic skill between Gumiho and either Classic or Soo, in a Bo7 non-mirror match up, there is 99% chance Soo or Classic will stomp the shit out of Gumiho. I feel sorry for Maru, Inno and TY.
? Gumiho is about as good among terrans as soO and Classic are among zergs and protosses. It really depends on their current form whether or not they advance. The fact that TY, ByuN and Maru are more accomplished as terrans than Gumiho doesn't make them automatically better than him, even in other match-ups than TvT. For example, I'd put Maru slightly ahead in TvZ than him, but worse in TvP. If Gumiho goes on to win GSL, he'll be as big (or almost) of a terran name as these three.
On June 14 2017 20:25 Vanadiel wrote: Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
it's so hard to prepare for him. no other terran is playing mech at GuMiho's level
you forgot InnoVation, I dont think anyone can surpass Inno's mech play in 2015.
Fairly certain that Gumiho was still regarded as best mech terran even in 2015.
Loved these series, loved those TvT, both of them, the rush and macro games in the BO7, I don't get why people get so mad about it.
This is a FU*KING strategy game, which means your strategy have some weight, right? And that is what we saw, strategy and skill from both sides, but GuMiho was better today, and I enjoyed every game.
People hating rushes and proxies are like those hating macro, sad them can't enjoy series like the one we had today, and both previous TvT were awesome as well.
Now I think Classic will win, even when I want soO in the finals tho... I see it hard for him to win a ZvP vs Classic which seems unstoppable lately.
On June 14 2017 23:01 kajtarp wrote: Does Swarm Host still shut down Terran mech play?
Mech requires dealing damage in the early game, otherwise it's easily containable. So situations where Swarm Hosts shut it down are quite frequent indeed. Unless you're Innovation.
On June 15 2017 00:09 Sogetsu wrote: Loved these series, loved those TvT, both of them, the rush and macro games in the BO7, I don't get why people get so mad about it.
This is a FU*KING strategy game, which means your strategy have some weight, right? And that is what we saw, strategy and skill from both sides, but GuMiho was better today, and I enjoyed every game.
People hating rushes and proxies are like those hating macro, sad them can't enjoy series like the one we had today, and both previous TvT were awesome as well.
Now I think Classic will win, even when I want soO in the finals tho... I see it hard for him to win a ZvP vs Classic which seems unstoppable lately.
the non-stanard games were so much like a C&C game....
just really cool that we can have the traditional "simmy" type of Starcraft brand RTS game AND a C&C gimmick-fest with quick tricks and nasty fucking brutal hard counters and micro that makes you want to smash ur keyboard into a million pieces when u lose to it.
SC in general feels just ever so slightly too "sim" oriented. C&C is too gimmicky. LotV is a good balance between the 2.
On June 15 2017 00:09 Sogetsu wrote: Loved these series, loved those TvT, both of them, the rush and macro games in the BO7, I don't get why people get so mad about it.
This is a FU*KING strategy game, which means your strategy have some weight, right? And that is what we saw, strategy and skill from both sides, but GuMiho was better today, and I enjoyed every game.
People hating rushes and proxies are like those hating macro, sad them can't enjoy series like the one we had today, and both previous TvT were awesome as well.
Now I think Classic will win, even when I want soO in the finals tho... I see it hard for him to win a ZvP vs Classic which seems unstoppable lately.
On June 15 2017 00:09 Sogetsu wrote: Loved these series, loved those TvT, both of them, the rush and macro games in the BO7, I don't get why people get so mad about it.
This is a FU*KING strategy game, which means your strategy have some weight, right? And that is what we saw, strategy and skill from both sides, but GuMiho was better today, and I enjoyed every game.
People hating rushes and proxies are like those hating macro, sad them can't enjoy series like the one we had today, and both previous TvT were awesome as well.
Now I think Classic will win, even when I want soO in the finals tho... I see it hard for him to win a ZvP vs Classic which seems unstoppable lately.
Proxies should be a massive gamble to do and have some weight to them. Not the standard meta in 80% of games. It just turns the matchup into a coinflip of who scouts who's proxy first.
Its not people hating proxy reaper, it's the fact the same build was used in almost every map and its a complete coinflip/who has quicker hands of the day. its like ZvZ when each player goes lingbane rush. Even the best players in the world lose to weaker ones in this scenario. And when we end up with weaker players eliminating better ones it can ruin tournaments and give us shit finals
On June 14 2017 20:25 Vanadiel wrote: Curse aside, I still think Gumiho could beat Soo, he may not be the best terran but he has a wide variety of build that could mess a lot with Soo play style.
it's so hard to prepare for him. no other terran is playing mech at GuMiho's level
you forgot InnoVation, I dont think anyone can surpass Inno's mech play in 2015.
Fairly certain that Gumiho was still regarded as best mech terran even in 2015.
By Koreans, anyways.
Until ByuL made Gumiho look like a mech fool in the Ro8 and then Inno beat ByuL with mech in the finals?
Gumiho might not be a completely one-dimensional TvT sniper, but he got to the finals off the back of TvT and he's definitely outmatched against Classic who beat TY and soO who beat Maru.
Hoping for soO to beat Classic, because getting a non-top-tier TvZ player as an opponent is a golden opportunity for him to finally grab the gold.
On June 15 2017 04:00 TerranOwnsAll wrote: Do you guys think Gumiho has a better chance against SoO or Classic?
I feel like Classic would be easier, but I don't know if the stats back me up on that.
soO just can't lose 6 in a row. It just can't happen
Yeah, while it would be cool to see Classic pick up his second GSL, I can't not cheer for soO. And Gumiho is the perfect opponent for soO too, since he is nowhere near the TvZ level of ByuN/Maru/Inno.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
On June 14 2017 22:05 ParksonVN wrote: And what a bad day for SC2 fan tbh, a TvT sniper being in a final guarantees a one-sided series for sure, there are huge gap in mechanic skill between Gumiho and either Classic or Soo, in a Bo7 non-mirror match up, there is 99% chance Soo or Classic will stomp the shit out of Gumiho. I feel sorry for Maru, Inno and TY.
no. Beautiful day for sc2! GuMiho will be extremely competitive against either.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
Perhaps you missed this event, I think it was called "GSL." I hear there are a lot of offline matches going on there. In fact, I hear this guy called 'Gumiho' is going to be playing an offline finals there, amazing right?!
And there was SSL, and IEM, and the Super Tournament. Guniho has played 41 offline TvP games in premier tournaments alone since the start of the year.
But of course it's totally picking cherries to use offline matches to predict an offline final, I mean who the hell would think a representative sample is actually a good idea?
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
Perhaps you missed this event, I think it was called "GSL." I hear there are a lot of offline matches going on there. In fact, I hear this guy called 'Gumiho' is going to be playing an offline finals there, amazing right?!
And there was SSL, and IEM, and the Super Tournament. Guniho has played 41 offline TvP games in premier tournaments alone since the start of the year.
But of course it's totally picking cherries to use offline matches to predict an offline final, I mean who the hell would think a representative sample is actually a good idea?
41 offline TvP games in 6 months? 10 hours worth of games over 6 months is such a representative sample, in a game where players regularly peak in form for a week or two (of calendar time). In every match-up, because that's how peaks of form work, just ask Dear.
No, your sample is indeed a classic case of cherrypicking, you went digging few months back just to try and make a point about his match-ups but forgot in the process that knowledge from 6 months back is never relevant in SC2 for judging present form.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
If you can take games you can take matches because to win matches you just need to win enough games :o. To be honest every player left can win this GSL, it's gonna come down to who comes more prepared. I wonder who will practice with Gumiho.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
Perhaps you missed this event, I think it was called "GSL." I hear there are a lot of offline matches going on there. In fact, I hear this guy called 'Gumiho' is going to be playing an offline finals there, amazing right?!
And there was SSL, and IEM, and the Super Tournament. Guniho has played 41 offline TvP games in premier tournaments alone since the start of the year.
But of course it's totally picking cherries to use offline matches to predict an offline final, I mean who the hell would think a representative sample is actually a good idea?
41 offline TvP games in 6 months? 10 hours worth of games over 6 months is such a representative sample, in a game where players regularly peak in form for a week or two (of calendar time). In every match-up, because that's how peaks of form work, just ask Dear.
No, your sample is indeed a classic case of cherrypicking, you went digging few months back just to try and make a point about his match-ups but forgot in the process that knowledge from 6 months back is never relevant in SC2 for judging present form.
I used the games since the new year because the sample whose size you are already bitching about would get even smaller if I shrank the date range. So either we have a non-representative sample because of date, or a non-representative sample because of size. Or a non-representative sample because of online/offline type. You seem to have forgotten that Starcraft II players simply don't play as many games as your obtuse definition of sufficiently large sample requires. You've insisted on using a sweeping definition of "cherry-picking" such that there's no good answer, the games are useless data in all cases, and ergo it is pointless to mention any of this at all. Worthless definition, worthless discussion.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
If you can take games you can take matches because to win matches you just need to win enough games :o. To be honest every player left can win this GSL, it's gonna come down to who comes more prepared. I wonder who will practice with Gumiho.
Yeah, anybody can win. I'm just not inclined to favor Gumiho against Classic/soO. Not saying it's impossible by any means though. Gumiho's practice partners are a good point, actually. It's obvious that Classic/soO will practice with INnoVation, but what top-class Protoss/Zerg players are friends of Gumiho? I can't remember any particularly skilled P/Z players on MVP, and there definitely aren't any on Psistorm right now. So where does that leave him? Personally, I've got no idea.
Since Byun helped Gumiho it stands to reason he will practice with Neeb. That's a good protoss and I'm sure he has others. He will come prepared. He is a stronger TvZ player for sure, doubt he has much of a shot against Classic, unfortunately.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
Perhaps you missed this event, I think it was called "GSL." I hear there are a lot of offline matches going on there. In fact, I hear this guy called 'Gumiho' is going to be playing an offline finals there, amazing right?!
And there was SSL, and IEM, and the Super Tournament. Guniho has played 41 offline TvP games in premier tournaments alone since the start of the year.
But of course it's totally picking cherries to use offline matches to predict an offline final, I mean who the hell would think a representative sample is actually a good idea?
41 offline TvP games in 6 months? 10 hours worth of games over 6 months is such a representative sample, in a game where players regularly peak in form for a week or two (of calendar time). In every match-up, because that's how peaks of form work, just ask Dear.
No, your sample is indeed a classic case of cherrypicking, you went digging few months back just to try and make a point about his match-ups but forgot in the process that knowledge from 6 months back is never relevant in SC2 for judging present form.
I used the games since the new year because the sample whose size you are already bitching about would get even smaller if I shrank the date range. So either we have a non-representative sample because of date, or a non-representative sample because of size. Or a non-representative sample because of online/offline type. You seem to have forgotten that Starcraft II players simply don't play as many games as your obtuse definition of sufficiently large sample requires. You've insisted on using a sweeping definition of "cherry-picking" such that there's no good answer, the games are useless data in all cases, and ergo it is pointless to mention any of this at all. Worthless definition, worthless discussion.
Congratulations on wasting my time.
Yeah, sample is unrepresentative so maybe it's time you'll learn that every time a Korean player went on a tear in offline matches he first went on a tear in online matches/ladder in general. So, online matches freaking matter, and excluding them just because they don't allow you to push your point bringing up half a year old games really does not help you.
On June 15 2017 04:08 pvsnp wrote: TY has the best TvP around.
GuMiho can actually take games/matches against herO and every other top Protoss for that matter, I think the jury is still out on that. His style might not be as pretty and refined as some of the others but it's really strong. It's actually his best match-up.
And soO just kinda struggles against GuMiho in general usually, even though his bio TvZ is weak-ish.
Gumiho can take games, yes, but not matches. In 2017 offline matches, the only series he's won against a top Protoss was Stats in the Super Tournament. And that happened right as Stats was slumping after GSL so I'm not sure how much that counts. Other than that one win, he's lost to herO three times and Stats once.
Eh, if soO beats Classic he will have plenty of prep time and Inno as a practice partner.
Talking about offline matches when these barely happen is kind of funny way of cherry picking.
Perhaps you missed this event, I think it was called "GSL." I hear there are a lot of offline matches going on there. In fact, I hear this guy called 'Gumiho' is going to be playing an offline finals there, amazing right?!
And there was SSL, and IEM, and the Super Tournament. Guniho has played 41 offline TvP games in premier tournaments alone since the start of the year.
But of course it's totally picking cherries to use offline matches to predict an offline final, I mean who the hell would think a representative sample is actually a good idea?
41 offline TvP games in 6 months? 10 hours worth of games over 6 months is such a representative sample, in a game where players regularly peak in form for a week or two (of calendar time). In every match-up, because that's how peaks of form work, just ask Dear.
No, your sample is indeed a classic case of cherrypicking, you went digging few months back just to try and make a point about his match-ups but forgot in the process that knowledge from 6 months back is never relevant in SC2 for judging present form.
I used the games since the new year because the sample whose size you are already bitching about would get even smaller if I shrank the date range. So either we have a non-representative sample because of date, or a non-representative sample because of size. Or a non-representative sample because of online/offline type. You seem to have forgotten that Starcraft II players simply don't play as many games as your obtuse definition of sufficiently large sample requires. You've insisted on using a sweeping definition of "cherry-picking" such that there's no good answer, the games are useless data in all cases, and ergo it is pointless to mention any of this at all. Worthless definition, worthless discussion.
Congratulations on wasting my time.
Yeah, sample is unrepresentative so maybe it's time you'll learn that every time a Korean player went on a tear in offline matches he first went on a tear in online matches/ladder in general. So, online matches freaking matter, and excluding them just because they don't allow you to push your point bringing up half a year old games really does not help you.
Ah, so that was your point the entire time! That online matches "matter?" For a moment I thought you actually had a legitimate statistical objection about sufficiently large samples. Thanks for clarifying.
Now about online matches....perhaps you've heard of this guy called "ByuN?" In all of his HotS online matches, he had a TvP winrate of 73% and a TvZ winrate of 78%. Now according to you, this insanely good form should most certainly be reflected in his offline matches. Except we can look at his offline winrates..... and we see 35% and 41%.
And that's just one example. INnoVation beat the crap out of all his top-tier opponents in GSLTV right before he got stopped by Stats in Season 1 and aLive at Katowice. Scarlett had huge hype after she beat ByuN and Inno during NationWars and somehow never translated that into amazing offline performance. I can go on. The abundantly obvious point is that online results are chronically unreliable at best for predicting offline results.
And don't even get me started on the ladder. Does the term "ladder hero" mean nothing to you? Before the Season 1 finals soO had multiple accounts in top 10 gm. Didn't help him. Before his Ro8 match Rogue was #1 gm. Didn't help him. INnoVation was consistently in the top 5 throughout the first season. Didn't help him either. Endless examples that all prove you wrong.
To be overly pedantic, yes online matches/ladder do matter (for instance if a player had 0 offline matches we could use online since anything is better than nothing). They just don't matter anywhere near as much as offline ones.
Not to mention, in this context of predicting finals (Gumiho vs Classic/soO) your assertion that "every time a Korean player went on a tear in offline matches he first went on a tear in online matches/ladder in general" is completely worthless. If we can only judge retrospectively (after a tear offline we look at the previous online) then how the fuck can you predict offline results before they happen? (Hint: you can't). Depending on whether you meant this to be a biconditional, it's either worthless or wrong. Take your pick.
I'll make this simple: online isn't offline. Seems kinda obvious that online shouldn't be treated as offline for the purposes of predicting a match. Can't believe I have to explain that, but hey, "alternative facts" are still a thing. Once again, congratulations for wasting my time (actually this is getting fun, so maybe that should be thanks for wasting my time instead).
On June 16 2017 05:10 pvsnp wrote: Now about online matches....perhaps you've heard of this guy called "ByuN?" In all of his HotS online matches, he had a TvP winrate of 73% and a TvZ winrate of 78%. Now according to you, this insanely good form should most certainly be reflected in his offline matches. Except we can look at his offline winrates..... and we see 35% and 41%.
And that's just one example.
A horrendous one. ByuN went on a break after December 2013 and came back in 2015. He played 392 of his 460 HotS games in 2015 and it was the phase where he was doing the best online in HotS. However, he didn't compete offline at all at that point, meaning there actually was no chance for his online results to translate to offline.
At least put in more effort to find a good example. And ByuN is also an example of online tear before offline success for LotV, he was winning every online tournament with ease and eventually it translated to good offline performances.
On June 16 2017 05:10 pvsnp wrote: Now about online matches....perhaps you've heard of this guy called "ByuN?" In all of his HotS online matches, he had a TvP winrate of 73% and a TvZ winrate of 78%. Now according to you, this insanely good form should most certainly be reflected in his offline matches. Except we can look at his offline winrates..... and we see 35% and 41%.
And that's just one example.
A horrendous one. ByuN went on a break after December 2013 and came back in 2015. He played 392 of his 460 HotS games in 2015 and it was the phase where he was doing the best online in HotS. However, he didn't compete offline at all at that point, meaning there actually was no chance for his online results to translate to offline.
At least put in more effort to find a good example. And ByuN is also an example of online tear before offline success for LotV, he was winning every online tournament with ease and eventually it translated to good offline performances.
My bad, didn't notice the dates jumped a year.
But looking at 2017 ByuN, he was doing great (over 70% winrate in all matchups) before he got knocked out in GSL Ro32. He's been doing consistently well online all year, but offline the best tournament result he's had is Ro8. The original Inno + Scarlett online examples are also still valid.
I suppose I could put in more effort and find more examples, but the point of them is showing that online form is very much a nondeterministic and therefore unreliable predictor of offline performance. One counterexample is enough to prove falsity of a universal quantification like "always" in the original assertion. (Obviously, if something is not true in all cases it is not true at all)
Also I am at work and have probably spent too much time on TL as it is
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2106.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1850.jpg)
i have maybe a free morning 
