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On June 30 2015 22:49 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:19 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:02 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 21:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:36 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 30 2015 21:30 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Let's see here, mirrors are always relatively more coinflippy by nature, so at least either Bogus or Dream should stop Maru - and that takes care of Jin Air's super ace.
As for the rest of the rosters, Classic/Dark/Dream/Bogus/Soo seems like a stronger lineup than Jin Air's sOs/Maru/Rogue/Cure/Trap, but either way this is going to be a close one.
Dream? Dream's TvT is... uh... pretty... not good. Dark is a much better choice to take out Maru. On June 30 2015 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 30 2015 21:14 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If KT just had a top level PvTer they'd be basically unstoppable. just a vMaru'er tbh. Stats actually has (did?) reasonable PvT against anyone not named Dream or Maru. To be fair, so does Zest True. Zest has beaten most top Terrans this year, those 2 are pretty much exceptions (also TANGTANG and jjakji I guess). Gotta get that First PvT mojo back on track though. Dark soO and Classic are the best options to take out Maru. Although I do want to see Dream try to yolo drop Maru. honestly i greatly favor SKT in the finals. I think KT had a better chance vs them. Well, Jinair has trap to take out the sk zergs and the rest could be taken by sOs then. Dream rekts both of them so..... as soon as Jin Air sends on sOs or Trap, SKT should send out Dream, also, Classic can handle Trap and sOs too Pretty sure the other way around goes for maru and trap if you want to go that far. Why would you think Dream and Classic would handle Trap and sOs? I'm assuming when you said "can", you meant "can easily". Dream hasn't lost to ANY Protoss lately except for Classic, and Classic is on his team, soooo.... He's ok for both Jin Air Toss's Dark and soO can beat both Cure AND Maru easily; Classic (maybe) and Dream can both beat Rogue; Classic beat Stats with exceptional pvp, so barring some weirdass shenanigans from sOs, he'll be ok. I think SKT has this in the bag, as long as they don't field INnoVation or even worse, Sorry. Tell me, how is Jin air going to beat the lineup of: Dark, soO, Dream and Classic (Each one of the best in their race...), Maru and sOs won't save em' sOs all kill ggnore
The 12-0 dream died because you believed in it.
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Finally just watched the games. They were freaking hilarious actually. The level that Maru outplayed everybody except Zest was comedic. Each game was more ridiculous than the next in terms of straight up abuse. LOL.
It is crazy how well Maru reacts to certain situations. He does stuff literally nobody else is capable of doing or is even willing to try yet it works amazingly well for him.
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On June 30 2015 23:06 Grizvok wrote:
Finally just watched the games. They were freaking hilarious actually. The level that Maru outplayed everybody except Zest was comedic. Each game was more ridiculous than the next in terms of straight up abuse. LOL.
It is crazy how well Maru reacts to certain situations. He does stuff literally nobody else is capable of doing or is even willing to try yet it works amazingly well for him.
Maru played really well but his opponents played poorly or made really bad mistakes also. Life for example was really bad today.
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On June 30 2015 22:44 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:19 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:02 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 21:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:36 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 30 2015 21:30 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Let's see here, mirrors are always relatively more coinflippy by nature, so at least either Bogus or Dream should stop Maru - and that takes care of Jin Air's super ace.
As for the rest of the rosters, Classic/Dark/Dream/Bogus/Soo seems like a stronger lineup than Jin Air's sOs/Maru/Rogue/Cure/Trap, but either way this is going to be a close one.
Dream? Dream's TvT is... uh... pretty... not good. Dark is a much better choice to take out Maru. On June 30 2015 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 30 2015 21:14 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If KT just had a top level PvTer they'd be basically unstoppable. just a vMaru'er tbh. Stats actually has (did?) reasonable PvT against anyone not named Dream or Maru. To be fair, so does Zest True. Zest has beaten most top Terrans this year, those 2 are pretty much exceptions (also TANGTANG and jjakji I guess). Gotta get that First PvT mojo back on track though. Dark soO and Classic are the best options to take out Maru. Although I do want to see Dream try to yolo drop Maru. honestly i greatly favor SKT in the finals. I think KT had a better chance vs them. Well, Jinair has trap to take out the sk zergs and the rest could be taken by sOs then. Dream rekts both of them so..... as soon as Jin Air sends on sOs or Trap, SKT should send out Dream, also, Classic can handle Trap and sOs too Pretty sure the other way around goes for maru and trap if you want to go that far. Why would you think Dream and Classic would handle Trap and sOs? I'm assuming when you said "can", you meant "can easily". Dream hasn't lost to ANY Protoss lately except for Classic, and Classic is on his team, soooo.... He's ok for both Jin Air Toss's Dark and soO can beat both Cure AND Maru easily; Classic (maybe) and Dream can both beat Rogue; Classic beat Stats with exceptional pvp, so barring some weirdass shenanigans from sOs, he'll be ok. I think SKT has this in the bag, as long as they don't field INnoVation or even worse, Sorry. Tell me, how is Jin air going to beat the lineup of: Dark, soO, Dream and Classic (Each one of the best in their race...), Maru and sOs won't save em' Rogue has beaten Dream plenty of times, so no to the assumption that Dream will definately win against Rogue. Dream HAS lost to protosses by hero, sOs and classic. He has won however, against hero and sOs, Zest and Stats. This means Dream is good PvTer but so is sOs and Trap. Easpecially when Dream is good against defensive protosses like Stats, Zest and hero (at the semi), which sOs and Trap aren't. Trap has won against both dark and soO. Trap seems to be dark's kryptonite btw. Check his winrate against him. Maru's PvZ is not great against SKT zergs but does not lose "easily." Classic's PvP is great but Trap and sOs' PvPs are also known to be good. Classic may be favored, but never easily.
Fair enough, BUT!!!!!!
Dream lost to rogue when his TvZ wasn't that good, now it's godlike
Dream lost to herO in GSL to hide builds/sniff herO out for SSL semi-finals, and he WON 4-0
Dream hasn't lost to any protoss since, other than Classic (not relevant), and he beat Trap handily in the IEM Shenzhen qualies...
also???
Maru's PvZ?????
Maru lost 3-0 to Dark in KeSPa Cup. Even Taeja took a map off Dark, how was it NOT easy? for Dark at least.....
for soO, I'm not sure but his recent form is promising
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On June 30 2015 23:38 MiniFotToss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:19 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:02 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 21:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:36 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 30 2015 21:30 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Let's see here, mirrors are always relatively more coinflippy by nature, so at least either Bogus or Dream should stop Maru - and that takes care of Jin Air's super ace.
As for the rest of the rosters, Classic/Dark/Dream/Bogus/Soo seems like a stronger lineup than Jin Air's sOs/Maru/Rogue/Cure/Trap, but either way this is going to be a close one.
Dream? Dream's TvT is... uh... pretty... not good. Dark is a much better choice to take out Maru. On June 30 2015 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 30 2015 21:14 dazed25 wrote:
[quote]
just a vMaru'er tbh. Stats actually has (did?) reasonable PvT against anyone not named Dream or Maru. To be fair, so does Zest True. Zest has beaten most top Terrans this year, those 2 are pretty much exceptions (also TANGTANG and jjakji I guess). Gotta get that First PvT mojo back on track though. Dark soO and Classic are the best options to take out Maru. Although I do want to see Dream try to yolo drop Maru. honestly i greatly favor SKT in the finals. I think KT had a better chance vs them. Well, Jinair has trap to take out the sk zergs and the rest could be taken by sOs then. Dream rekts both of them so..... as soon as Jin Air sends on sOs or Trap, SKT should send out Dream, also, Classic can handle Trap and sOs too Pretty sure the other way around goes for maru and trap if you want to go that far. Why would you think Dream and Classic would handle Trap and sOs? I'm assuming when you said "can", you meant "can easily". Dream hasn't lost to ANY Protoss lately except for Classic, and Classic is on his team, soooo.... He's ok for both Jin Air Toss's Dark and soO can beat both Cure AND Maru easily; Classic (maybe) and Dream can both beat Rogue; Classic beat Stats with exceptional pvp, so barring some weirdass shenanigans from sOs, he'll be ok. I think SKT has this in the bag, as long as they don't field INnoVation or even worse, Sorry. Tell me, how is Jin air going to beat the lineup of: Dark, soO, Dream and Classic (Each one of the best in their race...), Maru and sOs won't save em' Rogue has beaten Dream plenty of times, so no to the assumption that Dream will definately win against Rogue. Dream HAS lost to protosses by hero, sOs and classic. He has won however, against hero and sOs, Zest and Stats. This means Dream is good PvTer but so is sOs and Trap. Easpecially when Dream is good against defensive protosses like Stats, Zest and hero (at the semi), which sOs and Trap aren't. Trap has won against both dark and soO. Trap seems to be dark's kryptonite btw. Check his winrate against him. Maru's PvZ is not great against SKT zergs but does not lose "easily." Classic's PvP is great but Trap and sOs' PvPs are also known to be good. Classic may be favored, but never easily. Fair enough, BUT!!!!!! Dream lost to rogue when his PvZ wasn't that good, now it's godlike Dream lost to herO in GSL to hide builds/sniff herO out for SSL semi-finals, and he WON 4-0 Dream hasn't lost to any protoss since, other than Classic (not relevant), and he beat Trap handily in the IEM Shenzhen qualies... also??? helost 3-0 to Dark in KeSPa Cup even Taeja took a map off Dark, how was it NOT easy????
You keep saying PvZ when you mean TvZ.
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On June 30 2015 23:41 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:38 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:19 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:02 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 21:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:36 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 30 2015 21:30 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Let's see here, mirrors are always relatively more coinflippy by nature, so at least either Bogus or Dream should stop Maru - and that takes care of Jin Air's super ace.
As for the rest of the rosters, Classic/Dark/Dream/Bogus/Soo seems like a stronger lineup than Jin Air's sOs/Maru/Rogue/Cure/Trap, but either way this is going to be a close one.
Dream? Dream's TvT is... uh... pretty... not good. Dark is a much better choice to take out Maru. On June 30 2015 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
To be fair, so does Zest True. Zest has beaten most top Terrans this year, those 2 are pretty much exceptions (also TANGTANG and jjakji I guess). Gotta get that First PvT mojo back on track though. Dark soO and Classic are the best options to take out Maru. Although I do want to see Dream try to yolo drop Maru. honestly i greatly favor SKT in the finals. I think KT had a better chance vs them. Well, Jinair has trap to take out the sk zergs and the rest could be taken by sOs then. Dream rekts both of them so..... as soon as Jin Air sends on sOs or Trap, SKT should send out Dream, also, Classic can handle Trap and sOs too Pretty sure the other way around goes for maru and trap if you want to go that far. Why would you think Dream and Classic would handle Trap and sOs? I'm assuming when you said "can", you meant "can easily". Dream hasn't lost to ANY Protoss lately except for Classic, and Classic is on his team, soooo.... He's ok for both Jin Air Toss's Dark and soO can beat both Cure AND Maru easily; Classic (maybe) and Dream can both beat Rogue; Classic beat Stats with exceptional pvp, so barring some weirdass shenanigans from sOs, he'll be ok. I think SKT has this in the bag, as long as they don't field INnoVation or even worse, Sorry. Tell me, how is Jin air going to beat the lineup of: Dark, soO, Dream and Classic (Each one of the best in their race...), Maru and sOs won't save em' Rogue has beaten Dream plenty of times, so no to the assumption that Dream will definately win against Rogue. Dream HAS lost to protosses by hero, sOs and classic. He has won however, against hero and sOs, Zest and Stats. This means Dream is good PvTer but so is sOs and Trap. Easpecially when Dream is good against defensive protosses like Stats, Zest and hero (at the semi), which sOs and Trap aren't. Trap has won against both dark and soO. Trap seems to be dark's kryptonite btw. Check his winrate against him. Maru's PvZ is not great against SKT zergs but does not lose "easily." Classic's PvP is great but Trap and sOs' PvPs are also known to be good. Classic may be favored, but never easily. Fair enough, BUT!!!!!! Dream lost to rogue when his TvZ wasn't that good, now it's godlike Dream lost to herO in GSL to hide builds/sniff herO out for SSL semi-finals, and he WON 4-0 Dream hasn't lost to any protoss since, other than Classic (not relevant), and he beat Trap handily in the IEM Shenzhen qualies... also??? Maru's PvZ????? helost 3-0 to Dark in KeSPa Cup even Taeja took a map off Dark, how was it NOT easy???? You keep saying PvZ when you mean TvZ.
Editted
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On June 30 2015 23:12 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:06 Grizvok wrote:
Finally just watched the games. They were freaking hilarious actually. The level that Maru outplayed everybody except Zest was comedic. Each game was more ridiculous than the next in terms of straight up abuse. LOL.
It is crazy how well Maru reacts to certain situations. He does stuff literally nobody else is capable of doing or is even willing to try yet it works amazingly well for him. Maru played really well but his opponents played poorly or made really bad mistakes also. Life for example was really bad today.
Both Maru and Life have this super-aggressive (aka head-banging) style which forces things on their opponent. Non-stop drops, ling run-bys, etc. The Protoss equivalents would be sOs and Parting. Their micro and execution is so good that their opponents crumble more often than not. But sometimes they fail, and they look silly (like how Life botched his semi all-in today). It's a high-risk / high-reward.
Most viewers are entertained by their style (as opposed to safe, defensive and solid styles like Rain).
When Maru wins, people mostly go nuts over his prowess. When Rain wins, people mostly go "meh, his opponent played bad". And the post-mortem discussions tend to flow from such sentiments. Just my humble observation.
(I don't think KT played super bad this round. Life and Stats tried to counter by taking on the aggression against Maru, who reacted just by the nick of time - the games dragged on, and that's why they 'looked' bad. Flash lost by the reaper mis-micro. Zest put up a great fight. Maru didn't dominate, KT didn't flop. The games were closer than the scores suggest.)
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On June 30 2015 23:38 MiniFotToss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:19 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 22:02 MiniFotToss wrote:On June 30 2015 21:44 swissman777 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:36 dazed25 wrote:On June 30 2015 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 30 2015 21:30 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Let's see here, mirrors are always relatively more coinflippy by nature, so at least either Bogus or Dream should stop Maru - and that takes care of Jin Air's super ace.
As for the rest of the rosters, Classic/Dark/Dream/Bogus/Soo seems like a stronger lineup than Jin Air's sOs/Maru/Rogue/Cure/Trap, but either way this is going to be a close one.
Dream? Dream's TvT is... uh... pretty... not good. Dark is a much better choice to take out Maru. On June 30 2015 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 30 2015 21:14 dazed25 wrote:
[quote]
just a vMaru'er tbh. Stats actually has (did?) reasonable PvT against anyone not named Dream or Maru. To be fair, so does Zest True. Zest has beaten most top Terrans this year, those 2 are pretty much exceptions (also TANGTANG and jjakji I guess). Gotta get that First PvT mojo back on track though. Dark soO and Classic are the best options to take out Maru. Although I do want to see Dream try to yolo drop Maru. honestly i greatly favor SKT in the finals. I think KT had a better chance vs them. Well, Jinair has trap to take out the sk zergs and the rest could be taken by sOs then. Dream rekts both of them so..... as soon as Jin Air sends on sOs or Trap, SKT should send out Dream, also, Classic can handle Trap and sOs too Pretty sure the other way around goes for maru and trap if you want to go that far. Why would you think Dream and Classic would handle Trap and sOs? I'm assuming when you said "can", you meant "can easily". Dream hasn't lost to ANY Protoss lately except for Classic, and Classic is on his team, soooo.... He's ok for both Jin Air Toss's Dark and soO can beat both Cure AND Maru easily; Classic (maybe) and Dream can both beat Rogue; Classic beat Stats with exceptional pvp, so barring some weirdass shenanigans from sOs, he'll be ok. I think SKT has this in the bag, as long as they don't field INnoVation or even worse, Sorry. Tell me, how is Jin air going to beat the lineup of: Dark, soO, Dream and Classic (Each one of the best in their race...), Maru and sOs won't save em' Rogue has beaten Dream plenty of times, so no to the assumption that Dream will definately win against Rogue. Dream HAS lost to protosses by hero, sOs and classic. He has won however, against hero and sOs, Zest and Stats. This means Dream is good PvTer but so is sOs and Trap. Easpecially when Dream is good against defensive protosses like Stats, Zest and hero (at the semi), which sOs and Trap aren't. Trap has won against both dark and soO. Trap seems to be dark's kryptonite btw. Check his winrate against him. Maru's PvZ is not great against SKT zergs but does not lose "easily." Classic's PvP is great but Trap and sOs' PvPs are also known to be good. Classic may be favored, but never easily. Fair enough, BUT!!!!!! Dream lost to rogue when his TvZ wasn't that good, now it's godlike Dream lost to herO in GSL to hide builds/sniff herO out for SSL semi-finals, and he WON 4-0 Dream hasn't lost to any protoss since, other than Classic (not relevant), and he beat Trap handily in the IEM Shenzhen qualies... also??? Maru lost 3-0 to Dark in KeSPa Cup. Even Taeja took a map off Dark, how was it NOT easy? for Dark at least..... for soO, I'm not sure but his recent form is promising
So you're saying dream will win against hero again? I don't think dream will. It was hero's fault for underestimating dream that lead to 4-0. Also, maru lost against Dark in IEM katowice which was some time ago.
Also I just don't think there's "easy" among top players in sc2? Only the consistent results can allow you to be sure of the outcome (ie soulkey vs maru, zest vs maru). I remember 3 dark vs maru in which dark won twice. That's not enough. Otherwise, you should've been sure that sOs will win against Innovation easily every time since that match at Hot6ix cup because sOs won it in a convincing manner.
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United States97276 Posts
weren't the Dark vs Maru games the same tournament where Rain lost to Fantasy in the first round? A lot can change in 4 months
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Bisutopia19246 Posts
So Maru did an amazing job of performing multi-pronged attacks against protoss. This has been seen time and again as a method of immobilizing the protoss player and running them dry of workers, resources, and army. Why are protoss players unable to build a few defensive phoenix units?
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On July 01 2015 01:19 BisuDagger wrote:
So Maru did an amazing job of performing multi-pronged attacks against protoss. This has been seen time and again as a method of immobilizing the protoss player and running them dry of workers, resources, and army. Why are protoss players unable to build a few defensive phoenix units?
I mean Maru also shown how to dismantle Phoenix/Colo in the last months when he played against it. I think the real answer to Maru is : don't ever send Protosses against him, unless this Protoss is top3 PvT in the world.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
You guys make it sound like its a simple thing to create a snipe strategy for a player whose TvP is such that no one else can emulate it in the entire world, whose TvZ is basically second best in the world and who has the highest TvT winrate in 2015.
KT just dont have any players that can reliably take out Maru. They'd need to hire Rain or herO or Classic to do that.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
KT sent out the right players to try to take out Maru (and even had two snipe like builds come in from Life/Stats), but Maru isnt a one-dimensional player. At best its just a calculated gamble, at worst Maru just does another build from his wide arsenal of unique/stylistic builds.
You can scapegoat all you want, but KT players wer just a level below Maru and no amount of coaching will help that.
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On July 01 2015 02:37 stuchiu wrote:
KT sent out the right players to try to take out Maru (and even had two snipe like builds come in from Life/Stats), but Maru isnt a one-dimensional player. At best its just a calculated gamble, at worst Maru just does another build from his wide arsenal of unique/stylistic builds.
You can scapegoat all you want, but KT players wer just a level below Maru and no amount of coaching will help that.
yeah maybe we are spacegoating but goddammit how can it be possible to not take a fuckin single win against him? it's not like our players aren't skilled ffs!
Pardon my French, today's loss still hurts T_T
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On July 01 2015 03:06 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 02:37 stuchiu wrote:
KT sent out the right players to try to take out Maru (and even had two snipe like builds come in from Life/Stats), but Maru isnt a one-dimensional player. At best its just a calculated gamble, at worst Maru just does another build from his wide arsenal of unique/stylistic builds.
You can scapegoat all you want, but KT players wer just a level below Maru and no amount of coaching will help that. yeah maybe we are spacegoating but goddammit how can it be possible to not take a fuckin single win against him? it's not like our players aren't skilled ffs! Pardon my French, today's loss still hurts T_T
lol
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wait why are you laughing? doesn't that word mean what I think it means? *checks wikipedia*
E: OMG LOL :D+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 01 2015 02:35 stuchiu wrote:
You guys make it sound like its a simple thing to create a snipe strategy for a player whose TvP is such that no one else can emulate it in the entire world, whose TvZ is basically second best in the world and who has the highest TvT winrate in 2015.
KT just dont have any players that can reliably take out Maru. They'd need to hire Rain or herO or Classic to do that.
Life on form would do just fine.
Besides, our main annoyance is that they used Stats on Vaani against Maru, which is just asking to lose the map instead of fielding TY (who has pretty damn good TvT) on the good T map and saving Stats for Coda.
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United States23455 Posts
It's all Maru baby. Jin Air is winning this round
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United States23455 Posts
On July 01 2015 01:19 BisuDagger wrote:
So Maru did an amazing job of performing multi-pronged attacks against protoss. This has been seen time and again as a method of immobilizing the protoss player and running them dry of workers, resources, and army. Why are protoss players unable to build a few defensive phoenix units?
The real question is why can't all Protoss players just become late 2013 Dear and beat Maru like he did
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EPT![[image loading]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lpvpgnq_WxM/U9fE8AHvQII/AAAAAAAAABE/G16zmJcKnSY/w426-h427/spacegoat.jpg)
