• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:06
CEST 22:06
KST 05:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced60
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Serral wins EWC 2025 TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy
Tourneys
Global Tourney for College Students in September Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Simple editing of Brood War save files? (.mlx) StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BW General Discussion Help, I can't log into staredit.net
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Bitcoin discussion thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 780 users

[WCS] Global Finals 2014 Day 3 - Page 231

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 229 230 231 232 233 423 Next
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4601
On November 09 2014 08:42 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:40 Cheren wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:37 Cheren wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:36 liberate71 wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


Wow that was very well explained.

Gimmie a K!


it's a silly debate since most of the sc2 pros who aren't really young played BW for Kespa at some point.

debating whether the players who switched in 2010 or 2012 are better became a sport though.


The argument was always that the 2010 switchers were all the B teamers who couldn't cut it in BW, so they went for easy money against easy opponents.

Which is technically true, but the argument was also that the players that stayed in BW were genetically better, or something.


The B-teamers always rise up and replace the A-teamers eventually though, they would have done that regardless of whether SC2 replaced BW.


That was brought up once and they said players like Life and Taeja would have been the future of BW. I was less convinced knowing what I know of those two. They would have never made it in the kespa training.


Oh yeah, SC2 shook up the system a lot, I was just making a general statement.
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4602
Gosu transfuse.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4603
This must mean triple cast tastosis+apollo for finals right?
Neosteel Enthusiast
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4604
On November 09 2014 08:42 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:40 Cheren wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:37 Cheren wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:36 liberate71 wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


Wow that was very well explained.

Gimmie a K!


it's a silly debate since most of the sc2 pros who aren't really young played BW for Kespa at some point.

debating whether the players who switched in 2010 or 2012 are better became a sport though.


The argument was always that the 2010 switchers were all the B teamers who couldn't cut it in BW, so they went for easy money against easy opponents.

Which is technically true, but the argument was also that the players that stayed in BW were genetically better, or something.


The B-teamers always rise up and replace the A-teamers eventually though, they would have done that regardless of whether SC2 replaced BW.


That was brought up once and they said players like Life and Taeja would have been the future of BW. I was less convinced knowing what I know of those two. They would have never made it in the kespa training.

didn't oov win a WCG after they had kicked him out of the teamhouse?
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Boucot
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
France15997 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4605
On November 09 2014 08:41 Apoteosis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:40 Boucot wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 Apoteosis wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:38 rice_devOurer wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:37 Apoteosis wrote:
Life has never lost a BO5.

he's lost like 10000 bo5/7 against taeja though oO


Life has lost one BO7 and multiples BO3, but he's never lost a BO5.

http://aligulac.com/players/3/results/?after=&before=&event=&race=ptzr&country=all&bestof=5&offline=offline&game=all&op=


Forgot about dat Zest win. My bad.

If only it was only Zest. He lost against Scarlett, Welmu, San, Creator as well. 8 in total in Bo5/7 offline for 31 victories.
Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17676 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4606
On November 09 2014 08:41 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:39 Dodgin wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


This is a very good post. This post should be referred to whenever someone asks a question about this topic.

The proof is in all the old LR threads(mostly gsl code a in late 2012/early/mid 2013)

It was almost as annoying as the stephano's discussions whenever he got eliminated from a tournament.

the worst part was when a kespa player would lose they would just say "they need more time to learn the game, give them another 6 months/year/decade/century...."
"Expert" mods4ever.com
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4607
On November 09 2014 08:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
This must mean triple cast tastosis+apollo for finals right?


Meh Tasteless is panel host, not caster.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28481 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4608
On November 09 2014 08:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
This must mean triple cast tastosis+apollo for finals right?

I'm guessing Artosis Apollo
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4609
On November 09 2014 08:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
This must mean triple cast tastosis+apollo for finals right?


Yeah or Apollo and someone, maybe a tricast
The curse is real
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States873 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4610
Which opponent is tougher to beat for TaeJa: Artosis curse or Champagne bottle?
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
November 08 2014 23:43 GMT
#4611
So many people :o

[image loading]
Neosteel Enthusiast
Undead1993
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany17651 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4612
On November 09 2014 08:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
This must mean triple cast tastosis+apollo for finals right?

that's at least how they did it last time would be really cool
SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO SEKO
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4613
On November 09 2014 08:43 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:41 Godwrath wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 Dodgin wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


This is a very good post. This post should be referred to whenever someone asks a question about this topic.

The proof is in all the old LR threads(mostly gsl code a in late 2012/early/mid 2013)

It was almost as annoying as the stephano's discussions whenever he got eliminated from a tournament.

the worst part was when a kespa player would lose they would just say "they need more time to learn the game, give them another 6 months/year/decade/century...."


jetlag was my favorite.
Moderator
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4614
On November 09 2014 08:43 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
Why is there such a huge delay on the German stream? D:

Cause they're not at Blizzcon? (I'm assuming?)

it's not that. i'm also behind the regular stream. the taeja tweet was posted here before i saw artosis curse him on stream.
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
Larkin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom7161 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4615
Why can't every series just be soO vs Taeja
https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague
Xoronius
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany6362 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4616
On November 09 2014 08:39 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:38 Xoronius wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:37 Big J wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:35 Garnet wrote:
wow if Life loses we're gonna have a non-Kespa finals. Well maybe MMA and Taeja are just a different level.

Startale isn't on Kespa, or did I miss something?

No, not yet. And even if they were, Life is certainly no elephant.

Will they be? Didn't proleague open up to non-members? So Startale wouldn't have to join?!

They don't have to, but they might. Noone knows.
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4617
On November 09 2014 08:43 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:41 Godwrath wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 Dodgin wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


This is a very good post. This post should be referred to whenever someone asks a question about this topic.

The proof is in all the old LR threads(mostly gsl code a in late 2012/early/mid 2013)

It was almost as annoying as the stephano's discussions whenever he got eliminated from a tournament.

the worst part was when a kespa player would lose they would just say "they need more time to learn the game, give them another 6 months/year/decade/century...."

I still love the headstart excuse, I'm sure that 2010 experience made all the difference ^_^
Glorious SEA doto
KingofdaHipHop
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United States25602 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4618
On November 09 2014 08:44 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:43 Die4Ever wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:41 Godwrath wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 Dodgin wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


This is a very good post. This post should be referred to whenever someone asks a question about this topic.

The proof is in all the old LR threads(mostly gsl code a in late 2012/early/mid 2013)

It was almost as annoying as the stephano's discussions whenever he got eliminated from a tournament.

the worst part was when a kespa player would lose they would just say "they need more time to learn the game, give them another 6 months/year/decade/century...."


jetlag was my favorite.

don't people still cite that today?
Rain | herO | sOs | Dear | Neeb | ByuN | INnoVation | Dream | ForGG | Maru | ByuL | Golden | Solar | Soulkey | Scarlett!!!
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4619
On November 09 2014 08:44 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2014 08:43 Die4Ever wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:41 Godwrath wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:39 Dodgin wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:34 HolyArrow wrote:
On November 09 2014 08:27 KtJ wrote:
can somebody explain the kespa jokes?


Basically, when Kespa players switched over from BW, there was a lot of BW elitism going around where BW fanboys would claim that the current crop of SC2 players were trash BW rejects, and thus, the actually good BW players would dominate them after switching to SC2. BW did indeed have many talented RTS players switching over, so the player pool was injected with a bunch of extremely skilled contenders, so there were many instances of recently-switched BW players taking out the old-school SC2 players in tournaments. While this was happening, we had BW elitists everywhere (presumably salty because they perceived SC2 being the main cause of BW's demise) talking shit about ESF players, citing the Elephant in the Room article, and so on. One of the things these BW elitists would do is spam KESPAAAA whenever a Kespa player would win. As a result, people now parody their ridiculousness by spamming the same thing when a Kespa player loses to one of the SC2 "old guard", or whatever you want to call them.


This is a very good post. This post should be referred to whenever someone asks a question about this topic.

The proof is in all the old LR threads(mostly gsl code a in late 2012/early/mid 2013)

It was almost as annoying as the stephano's discussions whenever he got eliminated from a tournament.

the worst part was when a kespa player would lose they would just say "they need more time to learn the game, give them another 6 months/year/decade/century...."


jetlag was my favorite.

He is saving builds for PL.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
November 08 2014 23:44 GMT
#4620
I hate it, when caster claim go like "player a is good at xyz" and don't continue with an example why they are good at it...
Are they just saying it to sound smart or do they actually have some pasts situations in mind?
Prev 1 229 230 231 232 233 423 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 54m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ForJumy 206
SteadfastSC 159
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1436
Mini 748
ggaemo 275
sSak 73
Aegong 35
Stormgate
ZombieGrub292
UpATreeSC251
Nathanias68
JuggernautJason54
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Reynor134
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu558
Other Games
Grubby2129
mouzStarbuck225
Hui .164
oskar67
Trikslyr57
QueenE42
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 80
• davetesta43
• LUISG 30
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 43
• 80smullet 27
• Pr0nogo 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22487
League of Legends
• Doublelift1899
• TFBlade1204
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur484
Other Games
• imaqtpie1834
Upcoming Events
DaveTesta Events
3h 54m
The PondCast
13h 54m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
14h 54m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
LiuLi Cup
1d 14h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 18h
RSL Revival
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
RotterdaM Event
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.