|
|
On November 10 2013 10:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:53 Tachion wrote:On November 10 2013 10:46 Penguinator wrote:
I'm honestly depressed now. Like physically and mentally fucking depressed after watching that. I want to curl up in a warm blanket and do heroin... Why couldn't Jaedong just win? He's worked so hard... Same  I'm so turned off from everything starcraft right now. I muted the stream when JD was losing then closed it after the gg. I've never been this invested in a player before. jesus, was such a fairy tale story for JD and then this. fucking crushed hopes to the extreme. neither of you been sports (team) fans before?
heheheh sports. Yeah I cheer for team tennis over team football. About that much do I care about sports.
|
Great tournement...production/casting was all good,,,rushed at the end....
sOs deserved the win....Hero, Polt, Bomber and Jaedong, None could take two games off him... that is dominance!
I liken SC2 to tennis a lot....I feel Jaedong is like Murray...sooo many 2nd places,,,but eventually will make his breakthrough...
sOs is like early Djokovic...stealing the limelight from the big players (Innovation, Soulkey, Dear, Maru and Jaedong.)
|
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Zealot is Reach.
DT is Inca
Stalker is Hongun
Void Ray is Genius
Warp Prism is Hero
HT is Rain
Immortal is Parting.
Sentry is MC
Observor is Creator
Cannon is sOs
No one from sc2 has made the zealot his signature unit so far. I've changed Hero to Warp prism and Hongun to Stalker. I can see why Parting deserves multiple units, but in the end the SOUL TRAIN is associated with him even more than his changing PvT to storm openings.
|
On November 10 2013 10:52 stuchiu wrote:
For those sad Jaedong fans, he's going to DH Winter.
And for the rest of you, this is the current Protoss Pantheon.
Zealot is Reach.
DT is Inca
Stalker is Anypro
Carrier is Hongun
Void Ray is Genius
Phoenix is Hero
HT is Rain
Immortal is Parting.
Sentry is MC
Observor is Creator
Cannon is sOs
I'm open to suggestions/changes to the list.
If there is Reach, then carrier has to be Stork. That would open up the (blink) stalker position for Hongung, which fits him better anyways, imo.
|
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
On November 10 2013 10:56 DiLiGu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:48 marcesr wrote:On November 10 2013 10:41 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:35 Rostam wrote:On November 10 2013 10:33 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:30 aintz wrote:On November 10 2013 10:29 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:27 Zealously wrote:On November 10 2013 10:24 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:23 liberate71 wrote:
[quote]
Your smileys dont make up for your silly comments sOs is the definition of faceless. Most people didn't know he existed before this tournament. And he cheesed the entire finals. What a joke. Please never come into an LR thread again I'm hosting a barcraft and it was dead silent in here because no one cares about sOs. I honestly liked his play - it was neat, and some new strats I never expected to see (hidden expansion in a finals, say WHAT!?). But his story is 0. yall are a bunch of lame haters then. but you're probaby sitting home alone spreading hate on the internet anyways. I'm not hating! How can you argue that sOs is in any way a fan favorite!? He's maybe top 100 in terms of name recognition. It's fucking boring if the same players are constantly placing high and winning every tournament. New fan favorites need to emerge for things to stay interesting. Just because he doesn't have a big fanbase now doesn't mean he never will, and it doesn't mean you should make 100 posts in this thread whining about how he's killing esports by not throwing the finals. There are several factors that produce increased fanfare in sports. Chief among them are Dynasties, Rivalries, and Underdogs. I love SC2. I absolutely love it. I watched every single match of WCS NA and EU this year. But the players with the most of each of the three items I mentioned simply keep not winning. What's the biggest rivalry in SC2? It's not IdrA vs MMA anymore. TL vs EG? They're besties now. When was the last Dynasty? Mvp? Everyone loves jurgen. Lost in RO16. Who was the biggest underdog story? NaNiwa, out in ro16. I'm not hating on sOs, I'm really not. He just doesn't do anything to grow the community. Try explaining him to a new viewer - you can't. He's not the BW god that came to SC2 and continued his legacy. He's not the only foreigner in a Korean-dominated world. He's not the up-and-coming young guy with sick micro. He's not the "new best zerg". He's not the "new best terran". He's not the aggressive Korean Protoss who learned English and has cool ceremonies. He's just some gamer. You make some very good points, even if most people in this thread disagree...but too much negativity wont help us either, to some extent you gotta accept SC2's problems. Thanks, I appreciate you for actually reading my posts. Have I balance whined once? Nope. Have I spoken ill of sOs as a player or person once? Nope. I've even defended him, because I personally enjoyed his playstyle. I'm not speaking as a hater, or some foaming-at-the-mouth Spike Lee racist caricature. I'm speaking a businessperson. What I want more than anything else is for SC2 to become a mainstream sport, to take the 4th most-watched spot after football, baseball, and basketball in America. But it's so freaking hard to grow a brand in this industry, when victories go to players like sOs. Were the games interesting? Absolutely. Was his play neat and innovative? Yes. Was anyone rooting for him at the start of the tournament? No (speaking for the newish foreign community hear, not for 15000+ post BW people). People don't like to see their favorites just fall by the wayside. Even the most seasoned SC2 viewers here had no idea that sOs was going to win, and did nothing to hype him coming into this tourney. All of the hype was around Soulkey, NaNiwa, Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, and MC. Hell, even HerO and TaeJa.
I don't get why people even want SC to get to that level. The obnoxiousness of discussions between fans of 'real sports' is directly correlative to the big reach they have imo. The kind of discourse that happens on TL (or a similar central hub) would not be possible.
|
On November 10 2013 10:57 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:53 Faruko wrote:On November 10 2013 10:51 Sokrates wrote:On November 10 2013 10:42 Faruko wrote:On November 10 2013 10:40 Sokrates wrote:On November 10 2013 10:37 moon_fall wrote:
Grandfinal between Jaedong and sOs is actually a good example of difference between SC BW and SC2. In BW, "hard skill" like micro and macro are all that matters. Hence a good player will be good throughout his career. SC2, on the other hand, somewhat focuses on "soft skill" like mind-game and building hard counter armies, which is much more dicey. So a legendary player in SC2 will not stay in legend for long. "Mind-games" also include a lot of luck (he thinks that i think that he thinks etc.), SOS got lucky, but his wins didnt entirely rely on luck, he is a really good player aswell. It could have also gone the other way round. "Luck"? that was hardly luck, if you see all the games sOs won, he clearly made JD play what he wanted to play, in fact, he made that in the one he lost, but JD took a chance and build mutas So cannonrushing and going for a zealot immo allin doesnt have a good portion of luck involved? You know that this are risky builds for a reason... Risky means you do something that involves elements that are out of your control for example JD going hatch first, or SOS going nexus first. That is why i said "mindgames"... then Sc2 its all about luck ? I cant believe that That is why i said portion not entirely based on luck. Big difference.
Well, we can agree at that, good point
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 10 2013 10:56 DiLiGu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:48 marcesr wrote:On November 10 2013 10:41 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:35 Rostam wrote:On November 10 2013 10:33 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:30 aintz wrote:On November 10 2013 10:29 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:27 Zealously wrote:On November 10 2013 10:24 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:23 liberate71 wrote:
[quote]
Your smileys dont make up for your silly comments sOs is the definition of faceless. Most people didn't know he existed before this tournament. And he cheesed the entire finals. What a joke. Please never come into an LR thread again I'm hosting a barcraft and it was dead silent in here because no one cares about sOs. I honestly liked his play - it was neat, and some new strats I never expected to see (hidden expansion in a finals, say WHAT!?). But his story is 0. yall are a bunch of lame haters then. but you're probaby sitting home alone spreading hate on the internet anyways. I'm not hating! How can you argue that sOs is in any way a fan favorite!? He's maybe top 100 in terms of name recognition. It's fucking boring if the same players are constantly placing high and winning every tournament. New fan favorites need to emerge for things to stay interesting. Just because he doesn't have a big fanbase now doesn't mean he never will, and it doesn't mean you should make 100 posts in this thread whining about how he's killing esports by not throwing the finals. There are several factors that produce increased fanfare in sports. Chief among them are Dynasties, Rivalries, and Underdogs. I love SC2. I absolutely love it. I watched every single match of WCS NA and EU this year. But the players with the most of each of the three items I mentioned simply keep not winning. What's the biggest rivalry in SC2? It's not IdrA vs MMA anymore. TL vs EG? They're besties now. When was the last Dynasty? Mvp? Everyone loves jurgen. Lost in RO16. Who was the biggest underdog story? NaNiwa, out in ro16. I'm not hating on sOs, I'm really not. He just doesn't do anything to grow the community. Try explaining him to a new viewer - you can't. He's not the BW god that came to SC2 and continued his legacy. He's not the only foreigner in a Korean-dominated world. He's not the up-and-coming young guy with sick micro. He's not the "new best zerg". He's not the "new best terran". He's not the aggressive Korean Protoss who learned English and has cool ceremonies. He's just some gamer. You make some very good points, even if most people in this thread disagree...but too much negativity wont help us either, to some extent you gotta accept SC2's problems. Was anyone rooting for him at the start of the tournament? No (speaking for the newish foreign community hear, not for 15000+ post BW people). People don't like to see their favorites just fall by the wayside. Even the most seasoned SC2 viewers here had no idea that sOs was going to win, and did nothing to hype him coming into this tourney. All of the hype was around Soulkey, NaNiwa, Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, and MC. Hell, even HerO and TaeJa.
I could accept what you're saying if it weren't for this part of your post. It's wrong. You can twist it however you want, it's just not right.
|
On November 10 2013 10:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:53 Tachion wrote:On November 10 2013 10:46 Penguinator wrote:
I'm honestly depressed now. Like physically and mentally fucking depressed after watching that. I want to curl up in a warm blanket and do heroin... Why couldn't Jaedong just win? He's worked so hard... Same I'm so turned off from everything starcraft right now. I muted the stream when JD was losing then closed it after the gg. I've never been this invested in a player before. jesus, was such a fairy tale story for JD and then this. fucking crushed hopes to the extreme. neither of you been sports (team) fans before?
+1 here; I've never been a sports fan, haha. I felt kinda like that guy when JD GG'ed out in the last game. I was really excited (for the first time in 1.5 years) about SC2 yesterday, and then that happened and I felt pretty annoyed/sad. I'm not gonna start bashing anyone though, haha. I can accept and compartmentalize it and not take it out on people though.
|
|
|
On November 10 2013 10:57 Orek wrote:
As long as rush, cheese, and all-ins are considered somehow "bad" by us foreign fans, foreigners will never show results because they will try to please fans by not doing whatever it takes to win.
"Fuck you fans. I play a boring style, but I win." actually gives the player more money, and I approve it.
That's probably one of the smallest problems that foreigners face. Just look at how liked Naniwa is when his MLG win was of the back of 4 gates, his MLG 2nd place was 2 base all-ins and got to blizzcon with 2 base all-ins.
|
United States97276 Posts
On November 10 2013 10:57 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:56 -Celestial- wrote:On November 10 2013 10:53 75 wrote:On November 10 2013 10:52 stuchiu wrote:
For those sad Jaedong fans, he's going to DH Winter.
And for the rest of you, this is the current Protoss Pantheon.
Zealot is Reach.
DT is Inca
Stalker is Anypro
Carrier is Hongun
Void Ray is Genius
Phoenix is Hero
HT is Rain
Immortal is Parting.
Sentry is MC
Observor is Creator
Cannon is sOs
I'm open to suggestions/changes to the list. mothership is kiwikaki and bisu might be probe Shouldn't Naniwa be the probe after "that" probe rush? it seems that this is sc2 related so bisu shouldnt be in that list at all 
I think you could argue Bisu as a sentry for sc2
|
On November 10 2013 10:56 DiLiGu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:48 marcesr wrote:On November 10 2013 10:41 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:35 Rostam wrote:On November 10 2013 10:33 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:30 aintz wrote:On November 10 2013 10:29 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:27 Zealously wrote:On November 10 2013 10:24 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:23 liberate71 wrote:
[quote]
Your smileys dont make up for your silly comments sOs is the definition of faceless. Most people didn't know he existed before this tournament. And he cheesed the entire finals. What a joke. Please never come into an LR thread again I'm hosting a barcraft and it was dead silent in here because no one cares about sOs. I honestly liked his play - it was neat, and some new strats I never expected to see (hidden expansion in a finals, say WHAT!?). But his story is 0. yall are a bunch of lame haters then. but you're probaby sitting home alone spreading hate on the internet anyways. I'm not hating! How can you argue that sOs is in any way a fan favorite!? He's maybe top 100 in terms of name recognition. It's fucking boring if the same players are constantly placing high and winning every tournament. New fan favorites need to emerge for things to stay interesting. Just because he doesn't have a big fanbase now doesn't mean he never will, and it doesn't mean you should make 100 posts in this thread whining about how he's killing esports by not throwing the finals. There are several factors that produce increased fanfare in sports. Chief among them are Dynasties, Rivalries, and Underdogs. I love SC2. I absolutely love it. I watched every single match of WCS NA and EU this year. But the players with the most of each of the three items I mentioned simply keep not winning. What's the biggest rivalry in SC2? It's not IdrA vs MMA anymore. TL vs EG? They're besties now. When was the last Dynasty? Mvp? Everyone loves jurgen. Lost in RO16. Who was the biggest underdog story? NaNiwa, out in ro16. I'm not hating on sOs, I'm really not. He just doesn't do anything to grow the community. Try explaining him to a new viewer - you can't. He's not the BW god that came to SC2 and continued his legacy. He's not the only foreigner in a Korean-dominated world. He's not the up-and-coming young guy with sick micro. He's not the "new best zerg". He's not the "new best terran". He's not the aggressive Korean Protoss who learned English and has cool ceremonies. He's just some gamer. You make some very good points, even if most people in this thread disagree...but too much negativity wont help us either, to some extent you gotta accept SC2's problems. Thanks, I appreciate you for actually reading my posts. Have I balance whined once? Nope. Have I spoken ill of sOs as a player or person once? Nope. I've even defended him, because I personally enjoyed his playstyle.I'm not speaking as a hater, or some foaming-at-the-mouth Spike Lee racist caricature. I'm speaking a businessperson. What I want more than anything else is for SC2 to become a mainstream sport, to take the 4th most-watched spot after football, baseball, and basketball in America. But it's so freaking hard to grow a brand in this industry, when victories go to players like sOs. Were the games interesting? Absolutely. Was his play neat and innovative? Yes. Was anyone rooting for him at the start of the tournament? No (speaking for the newish foreign community hear, not for 15000+ post BW people). People don't like to see their favorites just fall by the wayside. Even the most seasoned SC2 viewers here had no idea that sOs was going to win, and did nothing to hype him coming into this tourney. All of the hype was around Soulkey, NaNiwa, Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, and MC. Hell, even HerO and TaeJa.
Are you fucking SERIOUS? You called him a faceless korean that literally 0 people care about for about 30 pages of this thread.
Tell me, how did Soulkey, NaNiwa, Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, and MC. Hell, even HerO and TaeJa all gain their hype? faeries? wizards? pixie dust?
|
On November 10 2013 10:50 moon_fall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:46 disciple wrote:
What I didnt like so much about the casters is the way they dismissed Dear in hyping sOs as the best protoss in the world. sOs is clearly the hot shit right now, but dear went on a ridiculous streak - sure he was going to lose at some point, but I would consider him still the best protoss in the world right now. Dear is better than sOs skill-wise. But Dear decided to confront Jaedong with his skills, and barely lost. sOs is smarter, decided to take risk advantages like cannon rush and hidden base. Luckily for him, it paid and he's now the "best protoss" in the world.
all the stupid sos bash is so stupid
if you win the blizzcon your the best PERIOD!
as a protoss you not win tournaments with long macro games with pure skill vs zerg ... its impossible
every race has it own style, macro zergs the harrasment terrans, and protoss strenght is the creativity
from his 1st day i saw sos in sc2 he played amazing creativ, we own him the voidrays in pvz and what a baller move he always makes.
no he perhaps not play the longest macro games but thats only because he know the way a protoss has to be, CREATIV
thats not "oh rnd bullshit lucky etc" ... GUYS with random bullshit lucky shit you not gonna be in the top16 of the wcs season and you by far not make the 1st place as blizzcon, if so then we would have bitbybit be first place ... or choya but no we have sos an impressive player
alot cry like foreigns not want him to win but thats all jd fanboys sorry to say, yes jaedong has an amaaaazing backstory and i root for him too BUT thats not what count
in the finals i saw jaedong make mistakes every game sooo many mistakes ... you not gonna win a blizzcon with so many mistakes i am sorry ...
ah and btw for all the balance whiner here (btw terrans not whine 50% tour was terran, and zerg even there was 2, one was in final)
we had 2 terrans 1 zerg and 1 protoss in the top4, and by both terrans loosing we had the top 3 games
tvp tvz and pvz, makes it nearly 100%!!!! perfect balanced top4 (you cant get a more balanced top4, the race who is in twice has to lose both semis to make it balance)
SO STOP WHINE there was no tournament top4 ever more balanced (because its not possible by math ^^)
sure there was only 2 zergs but 1 was first of the season and 1 was the runner up of blizzcon ... its sometimes bad luck but DAMN what a nice balance in sc2 nowadays.
OVERALL: BEST tournament i saw for a loooon time, i am super happy sos won, i never expected him and its so nice to see an underdog, a smart player to win the tournament with alot of ideas who are intelligent, not just a robot
edit: i am even more happy its sos and not dear or hero, because we own sos so many clever build orders, perhaps more then all other protoss together ever made
|
On November 10 2013 10:30 Jonvvv wrote:
sOs outplayed Jaedong, showing absolute brilliance in all three matchups through the tournament. I was rooting for Jaedong to take it, but you can't take anything away from sOs, well deserved champion. (Not saying Jaedong don't deserve it, but sOs was the better player)
i respect your opinion, but i disagree. sometimes the better player or team loses. luck is a factor as is conditions, confidence, and mind games, psyche outs.
|
Do you guys really feel these were interesting games to watch? I mean, seriously.
|
On November 10 2013 10:57 Orek wrote:
As long as rush, cheese, and all-ins are considered somehow "bad" by us foreign fans, foreigners will never show results because they will try to please fans by not doing whatever it takes to win.
"Fuck you fans. I play a boring style, but I win." actually gives the player more money, and I approve it.
And it's not even boring.
|
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On November 10 2013 10:57 DiLiGu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:55 forsooth wrote:On November 10 2013 10:30 Ljas wrote:On November 10 2013 10:27 DiLiGu wrote:
I'm soooo tired of disappointing tournaments. When was the last time someone won who anyone cared about? Around five minutes ago. Polt's WCS AM win, Mvp's WCS Europe win. I think one of the troubles with Protoss is that there's kind of a revolving door when it comes to the best players. We've had a lot of them come out of nowhere, dominate for a little while, and then fade away and not come back. Parting, Squirtle, Seed, and Rain (I'm probably missing someone) all had their moments but haven't shown championship form in a while. Now we have Dear and sOs sitting at the top of the mountain, and who knows how long they'll last? That's a lot of players coming and going over the course of just a couple years. The only real exception to the rule is MC, who had an extended period of dominance and also a great ability to win over fans with showmanship and a willingness to speak as much English as he was able to. Now look at Terran. Mvp has won championships in 3 different years, and along with Polt and Bomber has been relevant since 2011. MMA is back too, and he's also been around since 2011. MKP had his time and Innovation did too, and Maru is looking great recently, but we're still looking at those first four names in the top 16 players of the year-end tournament even after all this time. It's a stark contrast. Exactly! Thank you for getting it. Both Polt and Mvp's wins were incredible, and you nailed the situation on the head with the Protoss revolving door thing.
Except MC who got stuck in the revolving door cause he ate too much and now he's always there.
edit: damn mobile autocorrect
|
On November 10 2013 10:55 suicideyear wrote:
jaekong
the zerg kongjwa
|
On November 10 2013 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 10:56 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:48 marcesr wrote:On November 10 2013 10:41 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:35 Rostam wrote:On November 10 2013 10:33 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:30 aintz wrote:On November 10 2013 10:29 DiLiGu wrote:On November 10 2013 10:27 Zealously wrote:On November 10 2013 10:24 DiLiGu wrote:
[quote]
sOs is the definition of faceless. Most people didn't know he existed before this tournament. And he cheesed the entire finals. What a joke. Please never come into an LR thread again I'm hosting a barcraft and it was dead silent in here because no one cares about sOs. I honestly liked his play - it was neat, and some new strats I never expected to see (hidden expansion in a finals, say WHAT!?). But his story is 0. yall are a bunch of lame haters then. but you're probaby sitting home alone spreading hate on the internet anyways. I'm not hating! How can you argue that sOs is in any way a fan favorite!? He's maybe top 100 in terms of name recognition. It's fucking boring if the same players are constantly placing high and winning every tournament. New fan favorites need to emerge for things to stay interesting. Just because he doesn't have a big fanbase now doesn't mean he never will, and it doesn't mean you should make 100 posts in this thread whining about how he's killing esports by not throwing the finals. There are several factors that produce increased fanfare in sports. Chief among them are Dynasties, Rivalries, and Underdogs. I love SC2. I absolutely love it. I watched every single match of WCS NA and EU this year. But the players with the most of each of the three items I mentioned simply keep not winning. What's the biggest rivalry in SC2? It's not IdrA vs MMA anymore. TL vs EG? They're besties now. When was the last Dynasty? Mvp? Everyone loves jurgen. Lost in RO16. Who was the biggest underdog story? NaNiwa, out in ro16. I'm not hating on sOs, I'm really not. He just doesn't do anything to grow the community. Try explaining him to a new viewer - you can't. He's not the BW god that came to SC2 and continued his legacy. He's not the only foreigner in a Korean-dominated world. He's not the up-and-coming young guy with sick micro. He's not the "new best zerg". He's not the "new best terran". He's not the aggressive Korean Protoss who learned English and has cool ceremonies. He's just some gamer. You make some very good points, even if most people in this thread disagree...but too much negativity wont help us either, to some extent you gotta accept SC2's problems. Thanks, I appreciate you for actually reading my posts. Have I balance whined once? Nope. Have I spoken ill of sOs as a player or person once? Nope. I've even defended him, because I personally enjoyed his playstyle. I'm not speaking as a hater, or some foaming-at-the-mouth Spike Lee racist caricature. I'm speaking a businessperson. What I want more than anything else is for SC2 to become a mainstream sport, to take the 4th most-watched spot after football, baseball, and basketball in America. But it's so freaking hard to grow a brand in this industry, when victories go to players like sOs. Were the games interesting? Absolutely. Was his play neat and innovative? Yes. Was anyone rooting for him at the start of the tournament? No (speaking for the newish foreign community hear, not for 15000+ post BW people). People don't like to see their favorites just fall by the wayside. Even the most seasoned SC2 viewers here had no idea that sOs was going to win, and did nothing to hype him coming into this tourney. All of the hype was around Soulkey, NaNiwa, Maru, INnoVation, Mvp, and MC. Hell, even HerO and TaeJa. I don't get why people even want SC to get to that level. The obnoxiousness of discussions between fans of 'real sports' is directly correlative to the big reach they have imo. The kind of discourse that happens on TL (or a similar central hub) would not be possible.
You say that, because you're not a member of eliteish sites on mainstream sports (I assume).
Why wouldn't you want this game to become massively financially successful?
|
Has Stork actually won a game with a carrier? It's his iconic unit but I don't know if it's been leading him to victory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
