With eight spots open to qualified players, Iron Squid Chapter two offered a chance to everyone to compete with the world’s best. Among the eight, Mini is surely the most unexpected. Hardcore StarCraft II fans know him for his run at DreamHack Summer and his 4th place at the last insomnia in England. But the story of Mini is yet to be written. Aged only 18, the Swede has quite a cool opportunity to breakout, his first step to glory is to face the King of Terrans.
Mvp, the living legend
The best player of StarCraft II history enters the tournament in the last group for a good reason: his condition. Admins had to wait to make sure that Mvp could play in this second chapter of Iron Squid. Health might actually be the only factor that could ever prevent Mvp from winning everything. He has indeed suffered from neck pains for more than a year, which has been affecting his plays. Just before Iron Squid, he dropped from IPL 5 and GSL World Cup to get some rest. Gladly for our tournament, the game genie Terran had to practice to secure his GSL Code S spot and was in condition when it was time to play this group. If Mvp looked quite good when he had to defeat Flying and sOs to come back in Code S, he could not even win a Bo3 in Blizzard cup. Luckily for him he does not have to face the same players a second time this week and he can use this group to build back his confidence. Mvp failed at advancing last time, it is very unlikely for him to fail twice.
The face up
Even if he is not on top of his game Mvp has to win this game. Mini showed he is good at ZvZ on the way to his qualification but his recent loss to KraSs tends to show otherwise regarding his ZvT. It might not be enough facing that good of a player.
Stephano, on his way to redemption
His invitation might have come as a surprise for the ones who followed the first chapter where he forfeited his games against MMA. But there is no such a thing as a grudge in the great StarCraft II event that is Iron Squid. Not inviting Stephano would have been refusing to fans the opportunity to watch the most accomplished foreigners facing the best Koreans in the world. Nevertheless, Stephano knows he has to make it up for the fans by at least advancing from this group. He also has the perfect occasion to take his revenge on MaNa who took away his dream of becoming a two times ESWC champion in Paris. Stephano also lost to Mvp the only time they played each other, last year in the Blizzard Cup. If he wins the group, he can set everything right and also shush some of the curse mouths.
MaNa, a real chance to advance
Even if every group of Iron Squid can be considered as a group of death, MaNa might have ended up in the one which the most adapted to his skills. Unable to defeat Stephano for a long while, MaNa has broken his losing streak on his way to his two major titles of the year, DreamHack Summer and ESWC. The Polish Protoss is also really good at PvT, a match-up he trained during his stay in Korea. When he went there to play GSL Code S, MaNa had an awful luck in the group draw and got TaeJa, MMA and Mvp in his group. He did not face Mvp that time but might have to do it in Iron Squid and he will have to play better than he did in GSL, else he will have to beat Stephano again.
The face up
MaNa has been doing well against Stephano but PvZ remains his worst nightmare in StarCraft II. After a really exhausting November, Stephano had a little quiet time to prepare his games for this group. The Frenchy was regarded as the best ZvP for a long time, he is still a favorite in this match.
About advancing
If Mini’s chances to advance seem rather slim, the other three players should be neck and neck. Stephano is the hottest of them at this moment and Mvp will probably be the most accomplished forever. But there is a history between MaNa and Stephano and the condition of Mvp leaves a window for the other two to beat him. Stephano wants to make it up for the chapter one and grabbing the first place would be nice for his fans, but he would have to beat Mvp first.
On December 23 2012 06:54 Bagration wrote: This should be good for Stephano. He should be able to beat Mana. Hopefully he doesn't bail out on his matches like last Iron Squid
Game were played during the week, Stephano was there, don't worry.
would be surprised if MVP and Stephano didn't both make it out of this group. Mana is pretty good though, who knows. i don't know who Miniraser is and i have a feeling it's gonna stay that way.
L Leenock L Leenock L DongRaeGu L DongRaeGu W DongRaeGu L DongRaeGu L DongRaeGu L NesTea L NesTea W NesTea L Life L Life W Life W Life W Life L Life L Life W Symbol W Symbol L Symbol
L HerO L HerO L PartinG L PartinG W sOs L sOs W sOs W Flying W Flying L PartinG W Squirtle L TAiLS L Creator L Creator W By.Sun W By.Sun L By.Sun W By.Sun L By.Sun W JYP
Mini is totally unknown and unproven. Against Terran, Mini has played a whopping total of 4 games, and none of them were against particularly impressive opponents. Sure, Mvp's TvZ streak has been abysmal, but Mvp is the overwhelming favorite here - no questions asked. Stephano
ZvT Overall: 65.54% ZvT Last 20: 55% Head to Head Record: 1-0 (100.0%)
PvT Overall: 61.61% PvT Last 20: 55% Head to Head Record: 0-0
The next match will be either Stephano or MaNa. Against Stephano, Mvp might encounter significant opposition. While Stephano has not looked too hot recently, I suspect that Stephano will not stay down for long. On the other hand, Mvp is fresh off possibly the worst night of GSL he has experienced in his entire career. He has only won 7 of the last 20 games he has played against Zerg. However, the redeeming factor is that Mvp has been facing the absolute best Zergs in the world, the likes of Leenock, DongRaeGu, Life, and so forth. I predict Stephano will win this encounter, but it would not be an upset if Mvp takes this match.
Against MaNa, Mvp will be much happier. Yes, Mvp has a losing streak against Protoss, but he's on a losing streak against HerO and PartinG. Mvp has won matches against Flying and sOs (or sHy) recently in Code A, and while MaNa is good, MaNa isn't HerO/PartinG good. MaNa, Flying, and sOs should have comparable skill levels at the moment, so I'm thinking that Mvp's chances against MaNa are pretty good. Prediction: Mvp vs. Mini Stephano vs. MaNa Mvp vs. Stephano Mini vs. MaNa Mvp vs. MaNa
Mvp 2-1, advances to the Round of 16 in 2nd place!
Mvp 2-0 Mini MaNa 1-2 Stephano Mvp 0-2 Stephano Mini 1-2 MaNa Mvp 2-1 MaNa
Mvp should still be good enough to beat Mini and most likely Mana, but I won't have much hope for him against Stephano after his recent performances (and taking Mvp's games in the first Iron Squid tournament into account, he doesn't seem comfortable online either).
Hm no one knows what level mini is at, the favorites are obviously mvp and stephano, but I could see mini making an upset and getting 2nd place if he doesn't lose twice to mvp. His ZvZ looked pretty good in the online qualifier, and Stephano has been struggling a bit in that matchup lately.
On December 24 2012 01:24 goswser wrote: Hm no one knows what level mini is at, the favorites are obviously mvp and stephano, but I could see mini making an upset and getting 2nd place if he doesn't lose twice to mvp. His ZvZ looked pretty good in the online qualifier, and Stephano has been struggling a bit in that matchup lately.
Stephano's been struggling a little bit like a few other highly regarded names after the patch. No idea when the matches were actually played. I don't think this will be a walk in the park for MVP or Stephano. Expecting close series.
Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Did you actually see how people responded to the lineup?
On December 23 2012 12:18 StarVe wrote: Mvp 2-0 Mini MaNa 1-2 Stephano Mvp 0-2 Stephano Mini 1-2 MaNa Mvp 2-1 MaNa
Mvp should still be good enough to beat Mini and most likely Mana, but I won't have much hope for him against Stephano after his recent performances (and taking Mvp's games in the first Iron Squid tournament into account, he doesn't seem comfortable online either).
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Did you actually see how people responded to the lineup?
Don't bother. Some people think that ratings will go up just because a foreigner gets far. They don't get that the draw is foreigners getting far AGAINST the top players (Koreans).
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Did you actually see how people responded to the lineup?
Hardcore audience differs from the casual one. There are good reasons why some foreigner players keep getting invites even if their play-level remains unimpressive.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
It's not feelings of elitism and its not a bad decision on their part at all. That's completely subjective. Guess what smartass? The finals sold out with the flick of their fingers. You deserve a whack over the head.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
It's not feelings of elitism and its not a bad decision on their part at all. That's completely subjective. Guess what smartass? The finals sold out with the flick of their fingers. You deserve a whack over the head.
namecalling isn't solving any discussions, it just makes you look pretty bad. You deserve a lesson in economy. Ask people who are in the industry or listen to what they say publicly on shows and you will find out what's actually going on.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
It's not feelings of elitism and its not a bad decision on their part at all. That's completely subjective. Guess what smartass? The finals sold out with the flick of their fingers. You deserve a whack over the head.
namecalling isn't solving any discussions, it just makes you look pretty bad. You deserve a lesson in economy. Ask people who are in the industry or listen to what they say publicly on shows and you will find out what's actually going on.
Why don't you take all your education somewhere else and let people actually watch the sold out finals. Interestingly enough IPL5 was voted the most popular tournament of the year recently and guess how many foreigners played an important rule during that one.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
Did you watch the live finals of the first Iron Squid? The 4 players were Symbol, Nestea, Alive and MMA Live event, packed, in Paris.
But don't worry. Your foreigner fill will most probably be filled by Stephano.
rofl? You call that name calling? I could do much worse.
One: I was in the industry. Two: I follow the industry just as well as anyone else. Three: Opinions. Some have more weight than others. Also, I would hope you could think for yourself and not buy into everything you hear. Four: Substance. What part of they sold their tickets pretty darn fast did you not understand? Five: Did you see their figures? Six: We'll come back to this one. I watched HSC and TB's last invitational which was just within the last few weeks. How about this we come back here and compare the figures and numbers after the fact and don't be surprised when the figures are roughly the same okay buster?
With that said, Iron Squid does an exceptionally good job for being an Invitational and many people can learn from what they're doing. Hat goes off to the oGs team.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
It's not feelings of elitism and its not a bad decision on their part at all. That's completely subjective. Guess what smartass? The finals sold out with the flick of their fingers. You deserve a whack over the head.
namecalling isn't solving any discussions, it just makes you look pretty bad. You deserve a lesson in economy. Ask people who are in the industry or listen to what they say publicly on shows and you will find out what's actually going on.
People who run these shows and pledge for better foreigner presence in tournaments are usually bitter public figures who lost their relevancy over time. You should not let these clowns influence your taste for good starcraft.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I think this is a myth. Do people really want to watch worse starcraft?
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I think this is a myth. Do people really want to watch worse starcraft?
I've talked to my friends who watch starcraft about this. Some of them don't have time and is really only interested in the best games, because of this, they prefer to watch GSL or events that feature the most skilled players (usually koreans).
A lot of people who watch don't really have the mentality to care too much about who plays, but rather the entertainment value of the games. It just so happens that the top korean players are best at delivering that.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I guess the fact that the 3500 tickets were sold in less than 10 days should give you an idea of how wrong it is to have top Koreans in the tournament.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I guess the fact that the 3500 tickets were sold in less than 10 days should give you an idea of how wrong it is to have top Koreans in the tournament.
That could mean something if there was an easy comparison point. I doubt ESWC would work.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I guess the fact that the 3500 tickets were sold in less than 10 days should give you an idea of how wrong it is to have top Koreans in the tournament.
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I guess the fact that the 3500 tickets were sold in less than 10 days should give you an idea of how wrong it is to have top Koreans in the tournament.
Arg, isn't there extra tickets still available? I'd really want to be there...
On December 24 2012 01:38 TigerKarl wrote: Sad that this tournament is risking it's own success by having to many koreans participating. It's not good to hope for a good foreigner run, instead of making sure that foreigners will advance far by limiting the korean number.
Oh shut up.
Your feelings of elitism won't save tournaments from making bad decisions. 21 koreans in a 32 man tournament may be cool for you, but you're not the 20.000 people who won't tune in if the top8 is all korean. I have no problem watching top koreans play, but i won't close my eyes to the fact that a remarkable amount of people find that really lame, so if you're not willing to put in your money to replace missing ad revenue, then maybe you + Show Spoiler +
better shut up?
I guess the fact that the 3500 tickets were sold in less than 10 days should give you an idea of how wrong it is to have top Koreans in the tournament.
Arg, isn't there extra tickets still available? I'd really want to be there...
not that I know of :/ there might be a (very) few extra depending on how much are needed for press and sponsors, but if so, you'd better be really really quick
I like the new defeat pop up blocks the whole chat so you don't see if there is only a g or nothing or a gg if they leave quick enough ! Or you can see it barely hehe
Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
On December 24 2012 04:58 Scrubwave wrote: Wonder if not sieging tanks against ultras was intentional. Apparently so, since he didn't siege them again.
Of course it was on purpose, against pure Ultralisks unsieged Tanks are much better.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
against zerg he didn't play mech as much as today, he even said himself what i told you, if he only plays mech against zerg, it's on purpose
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Following the same logic mech on TvP is perfectly viable because there was one player who won some games using it (liquid sea).
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
And because they're crap, Gumiho builds them to dominate the best Zerg players in the world? Why that makes complete sense, I don't know how I couldn't see that!
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
Even though people say he has to play with a low apm style, he actually has more apm than most from what I've seen. Replays from all tournaments thaat release replays show his apm is roughly mid 300's.
On December 24 2012 04:58 Scrubwave wrote: Wonder if not sieging tanks against ultras was intentional. Apparently so, since he didn't siege them again.
Of course it was on purpose, against pure Ultralisks unsieged Tanks are much better.
Yeah, but often terran players forget to siege but I guess I should've known better since it's MVP.
If it was a mistake, he would probably siege the tanks in later fights, but he didn't so it was probably intentional. It makes sense since tanks in siege can hit ultras probably once before they close the distance...
On December 24 2012 05:11 TommyP wrote: If you are 10x better than your opponent, why try gimmick/cheesy play?
Skill check I guess. Koreans like to do it
lol thats what I call it too. 3 rax stim rush, 4 gate, roach ling or roach ling bane, bane ling bust, 2 rax proxy etc.. just a bunch of skill checks that shouldn't work, but they can make it work
On December 24 2012 04:58 Scrubwave wrote: Wonder if not sieging tanks against ultras was intentional. Apparently so, since he didn't siege them again.
Of course it was on purpose, against pure Ultralisks unsieged Tanks are much better.
Yeah, but often terran players forget to siege but I guess I should've known better since it's MVP.
If it was a mistake, he would probably siege the tanks in later fights, but he didn't so it was probably intentional. It makes sense since tanks in siege can hit ultras probably once before they close the distance...
That and ultras are big enough to eat whole splash damage.
Exactly. No need to splash ultras when regular siege tanks have higher DPS and ultras really absorb the whole blast.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
No Tarson is the best Terran. Those sick holds.
Scrappy game 2 there. Lots of damage for both sides
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Gumhios results aside the reason is simple - other terran pros disagree and Khaldor is not qualified to say he knows better. Other casters that indulge in bias at least have the good form to try and be funny about it.
On December 24 2012 04:58 Scrubwave wrote: Wonder if not sieging tanks against ultras was intentional. Apparently so, since he didn't siege them again.
Of course it was on purpose, against pure Ultralisks unsieged Tanks are much better.
Yeah, but often terran players forget to siege but I guess I should've known better since it's MVP.
If it was a mistake, he would probably siege the tanks in later fights, but he didn't so it was probably intentional. It makes sense since tanks in siege can hit ultras probably once before they close the distance...
That and ultras are big enough to eat whole splash damage.
Exactly. No need to splash ultras when regular siege tanks have higher DPS and ultras really absorb the whole blast.
And the normal attack is somewhat okay against lings as well if you are +3. If you have a few hellions scattered in at the sides a tank clump is pretty good with 3 armor upgrades against lings/ultra. The problem are chain Fungals, but thats why you siege a few Tanks.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Gumhios results aside the reason is simple - other terran pros disagree and Khaldor is not qualified to say he knows better. Other casters that indulge in bias at least have the good form to try and be funny about it.
What qualification is necessary when the results are there for everyone to see? Gumiho uses Ghosts against the best Zergs in the world, and anyone who watched those games can see that Ghosts were very effective.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
Then "best terran in the world" is a pretty meaningless title.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
LeBron James was the best small forward long before he won a championship. You can't compare SC2 pros to basketball pros in that manner.
It may have worked better if he just sent the Warp Prism in without walking his entire army next to Stephano's main showing the Overlord what he was trying to do.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Gumhios results aside the reason is simple - other terran pros disagree and Khaldor is not qualified to say he knows better. Other casters that indulge in bias at least have the good form to try and be funny about it.
What qualification is necessary when the results are there for everyone to see? Gumiho uses Ghosts against the best Zergs in the world, and anyone who watched those games can see that Ghosts were very effective.
On December 24 2012 05:43 DarkLordOlli wrote: And now Stephano just remaxes on corruptors and wins
PvZ as its best ^^
But mana had a very bad positionning. - Archons not protecting the carriers (too late, actually) - HT a bit too far, were not able to feedback the infestors early enough
I think with more practice, this comp can actually beat the lategame zerg.
But mana lost way too much on the 4th. Very bad fight for him... Bad engagement.
On December 24 2012 05:43 DarkLordOlli wrote: And now Stephano just remaxes on corruptors and wins
PvZ as its best ^^
But mana had a very bad positionning. - Archons not protecting the carriers (too late, actually) - HT a bit too far, were not able to feedback the infestors early enough
I think with more practice, this comp can actually beat the lategame zerg.
Mana actually did pretty well, I expected the first fight to go waaay worse already.
On December 24 2012 05:43 DarkLordOlli wrote: And now Stephano just remaxes on corruptors and wins
PvZ as its best ^^
But mana had a very bad positionning. - Archons not protecting the carriers (too late, actually) - HT a bit too far, were not able to feedback the infestors early enough
I think with more practice, this comp can actually beat the lategame zerg.
This comp is old and has proven numerous times to be unsuccessful when scouted at a reasonable timing.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
Come on now, he's good but to say he's the best in the world? I'll admit that there aren't many Terrans that are doing well or dominating, but pointing to Gumiho seems very random. Even results-wise he hasn't even made it further than the Ro32 since Season 2 GSL this year. I mean, he's had some good games, but you could say that about many Terrans.
I agree with the statement on all ins. I guess the mentality that "all ins are for bad players" originated from when certain strategies were really easy to abuse and overpowered so bad players would win games they wouldn't win without these strats.
On December 24 2012 05:55 DarkLordOlli wrote: I agree with the statement on all ins. I guess the mentality that "all ins are for bad players" originated from when certain strategies were really easy to abuse and overpowered so bad players would win games they wouldn't win without these strats.
I blame idra for that.
On a serious note, i like all ins when it turns out to be some low eco scrappy game because of it.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
Mvp does spam a lot as far as I recall from the MLG multi-replays I opened up in sc2gears. The lowest redundancy terrans are Polt and MKP, but Polt started spamming a bit more recently afaik.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
LeBron James was the best small forward long before he won a championship. You can't compare SC2 pros to basketball pros in that manner.
Thats my point. Lebron best player at his position for a long time but never won anything. You can be the best at your position/race but not win anything is what i was saying when referring to gumiho.
Also Stephano vs Mvp is going to be sick i cant wait.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
Mvp does spam a lot as far as I recall from the MLG multi-replays I opened up in sc2gears. The lowest redundancy terrans are Polt and MKP, but Polt started spamming a bit more recently afaik.
Gogo Stephano and Mvp! :D
Mvp was actually one of the best MMM-multitasker in 2011, but since then his health got alot worse, so he has to play this slow style.
Thats my point. Lebron best player at his position for a long time but never won anything. You can be the best at your position/race but not win anything is what i was saying when referring to gumiho.
Also Stephano vs Mvp is going to be sick i cant wait.
Comparing an individual sport to a team sport is pretty smart.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
LeBron James was the best small forward long before he won a championship. You can't compare SC2 pros to basketball pros in that manner.
Thats my point. Lebron best player at his position for a long time but never won anything. You can be the best at your position/race but not win anything is what i was saying when referring to gumiho.
Also Stephano vs Mvp is going to be sick i cant wait.
Hai.
Basketball = team game. SC2 = 1on1 game
Kk.
Or we could start argueing why bomber is the best terran in the world, because his TvP is godly and Gumiho is not even close to his shoes at that match up. And yes, it sounds stupid because it is.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
Mvp does spam a lot as far as I recall from the MLG multi-replays I opened up in sc2gears. The lowest redundancy terrans are Polt and MKP, but Polt started spamming a bit more recently afaik.
Gogo Stephano and Mvp! :D
Mvp was actually one of the best MMM-multitasker in 2011, but since then his health got alot worse, so he has to play this slow style.
Yeah. I know, that's why I also knew that Leenock wasn't that much of a beast for beating Mvp in this MLG before he failed vs Jjakji, cuz Mvp wasn't playing his bio as well as in the past because of his health. I miss the old Mvp utter domination, in this gisado showmatches where he beat 5 of the best zergs of the planet one after another, along with winning GSL and another tourney. Scary to imagine what he could have done without his injury.
Stephano should have it now. why didnt Mana try to expand... Mana loses to alot of zergs as of late, hope he can come back by taking out mini then taking out Mvp should be possible, Mvp hasn't looked to great and Mana is alot better vs t
edit: I think Stephano should win over Mvp since Mvp looked weak against Mini
On December 24 2012 06:12 pufulete wrote: I hate it every time a caster says "the fungals are good". When you have 8-10 infestors it's hard NOT to get some good fungals.
actually considering the fact that there were a lot of colossi, their range is a good counter to avoid a good fungal, in the last fight stephano did pretty well
@ fastlr : blizzard cup 2011, bo1 if i'm not mistaken
On December 24 2012 06:11 DODswe4 wrote: Stephano should have it now. why didnt Mana try to expand... Mana loses to alot of zergs as of late, hope he can come back by taking out mini then taking out Mvp should be possible, Mvp hasn't looked to great and Mana is alot better vs t
edit: I think Stephano should win over Mvp since Mvp looked weak against Mini
If Mana expands, he can't keep attacking. If he can't keep attacking, Stephano's infestors regain energy + BLs can morph and from there Mana is far away from the tech he needs to fight that army at full strength. The fights were only close because Mana kept going in, wasting infestor energy.
On December 24 2012 04:49 pmp10 wrote: Khaldor really needs to get over the whole 'ghosts' thing. Pre-nerf he was whining about them on-air in GSL and now that they are rarely used in the match-up he soothes his guilty conscience by shouting 'Gumiho' whenever issues of TvZ are brought up.
Why should he ignore the fact that one of the most successful Terran players lately has shown multiple times in the last few months that Ghosts are very viable and useful, while the rest continue to whine that they're absolute crap and refuse to build them at all?
Because they are, in fact, crap in TvZ and that is the very reason you only see gumiho build them.
but Gumibear is best Terran right now, obviously he's doing something right.
Best terran by what standards? He had a win streak, that is not enough to call him the best terran....
I dont think any other terran's play comes close atm. He's just looked like the best terran regardless of how much he's won, nobody has looked better lately.
oh and Im a FXO hater.
People should stop to hype too fast. Gumiho is a wonderful player, he has proven that already this year, he was called to become the best terran at the end of 2011 and he failed to accomplish anything this year. You can't be the best terran without success. Obviously he is pretty good, he has some very different strategies that are amazing to watch, great micro and macro, but there is not point of calling him the best terran until he actually achieves it. It was already boring for Forgg, and it still is everytime people hype a player too soon.
its not hype, im not saying he's going to go win everything, but at this point in time, his play isnt matched by any other terran. Hell even during Mvp's GSL runs this year, he wasnt the best terran (well maybe season 2 i dont remember), a lot more than being the best terran goes into winning (just ask LeBron James before last year)
LeBron James was the best small forward long before he won a championship. You can't compare SC2 pros to basketball pros in that manner.
Thats my point. Lebron best player at his position for a long time but never won anything. You can be the best at your position/race but not win anything is what i was saying when referring to gumiho.
Also Stephano vs Mvp is going to be sick i cant wait.
The difference is that Lebron James was part of a team, and his individual strengths and accomplishments do not necessarily translate to team accomplishments. This isn't the case in SC2, where leagues are mostly 1v1 format.
On December 24 2012 06:07 Zenbrez wrote: Stephano keeps his infestors on his main army hotkey? Common dude.
bashing stephano's army control takes some balls :D
stephano select infestors by ctrl-clicking into the unit bar after pushing hotkey, that takes some skill to do it as fast as he does
Best PvZ I've seen in a while, i really thought mana was doing it at some point (stephano back on two bases + 1 going up on the left)
No it would be skilful if he had them on a separate hotkey. Having them on the same hotkey actually doesn't make sense and is bad because you control the infestors far slower.
On December 24 2012 06:07 Zenbrez wrote: Stephano keeps his infestors on his main army hotkey? Common dude.
bashing stephano's army control takes some balls :D
stephano select infestors by ctrl-clicking into the unit bar after pushing hotkey, that takes some skill to do it as fast as he does
Best PvZ I've seen in a while, i really thought mana was doing it at some point (stephano back on two bases + 1 going up on the left)
No it would be skilful if he had them on a separate hotkey. Having them on the same hotkey actually doesn't make sense and is bad because you control the infestors far slower.
That kind of discussion brings me back painful memories when the mainstream people started to play MMORPGs and they said mouseclicking.was ok.
On December 24 2012 06:11 DODswe4 wrote: Stephano should have it now. why didnt Mana try to expand... Mana loses to alot of zergs as of late, hope he can come back by taking out mini then taking out Mvp should be possible, Mvp hasn't looked to great and Mana is alot better vs t
edit: I think Stephano should win over Mvp since Mvp looked weak against Mini
If Mana expands, he can't keep attacking. If he can't keep attacking, Stephano's infestors regain energy + BLs can morph and from there Mana is far away from the tech he needs to fight that army at full strength. The fights were only close because Mana kept going in, wasting infestor energy.
I meant more in general why he thought as a game plan doing the continues attack was a good idea, obv its easy to say when you see exactly what Stephano is doing. But he think Mana should have tried to get some more tech earlier. He might have lost still, cant really see what Stephano would have done it that situation really
On December 24 2012 06:11 DODswe4 wrote: Stephano should have it now. why didnt Mana try to expand... Mana loses to alot of zergs as of late, hope he can come back by taking out mini then taking out Mvp should be possible, Mvp hasn't looked to great and Mana is alot better vs t
edit: I think Stephano should win over Mvp since Mvp looked weak against Mini
If Mana expands, he can't keep attacking. If he can't keep attacking, Stephano's infestors regain energy + BLs can morph and from there Mana is far away from the tech he needs to fight that army at full strength. The fights were only close because Mana kept going in, wasting infestor energy.
I meant more in general why he thought as a game plan doing the continues attack was a good idea, obv its easy to say when you see exactly what Stephano is doing. But he think Mana should have tried to get some more tech earlier. He might have lost still, cant really see what Stephano would have done it that situation really
Mana was far behind in economy from the beginning since his third was mega delayed. What he did to compensate for that is boost his upgrades and go up to colossi. He kinda got forced into it by taking the economy hit and decided to use the two strong points he used to compensate for it - colossus tech and strong, fast upgrades. But those don't carry over well vs BL/infestor so his best bet was hitting that attack off double robo colossus. Since his third was so late he couldn't really afford to tech much further.
On December 24 2012 06:27 Mensol wrote: If he beat MVP with roach/hydra, there is no hope for terrans.
Roach Hydra is pretty good and very viable actually. Zergs just always call Hydra's bad and refuse to use them so it became common "knowledge" that Hydras are bad.
Same way that every Zerg will tell you that if they don't get free 3 base full saturation they are ages behind.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
it's the same reason why 10-11:00 speedroaches are insanely strong. Every terran opens hellion + banshee, and zergs just know how to defend vs it. If you follow that up with a good roach / roach-hydra/roach-queen timing, you can win straight away.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
On December 24 2012 06:27 Mensol wrote: If he beat MVP with roach/hydra, there is no hope for terrans.
Roach Hydra is pretty good and very viable actually. Zergs just always call Hydra's bad and refuse to use them so it became common "knowledge" that Hydras are bad.
Same way that every Zerg will tell you that if they don't get free 3 base full saturation they are ages behind.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Qwerty85 wrote: I am not sure if this is Mvp not being used to such play or zergs actually exaggerate how bad hydras are.
Yes they may be bad in comparison to winfestors but not so bad to be useless, it seems.
Korean terrans never ever scout. Half the terrans Stephano plays against don't even scout his early roaches pushes. Others don't know to the 12th minute mark that he actually plays roach hydra.
weird that mvp still tried to take 3rd when he saw with banshees (dying to hydras) the roach/hydra going to 3rd...mvp had so few non hellion units he shoulda waited for more
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
stephano pretty good at trying to change some metagame but according to him he didn't find the best timing with his hydras, so wait and see
On December 24 2012 06:30 Lorning wrote: I love how he just attacked into 7 or 8 tanks and crushed it
Tanks are overrated!!! First attack was killer timing. I mean MVP had 2 tanks... 1 minute later and it would not have worked. next time less hellions/banshee more tanks and he does not lose against hydras ever
Roach Hydra, with good creep spread actually seems quite viable in TvZ. Of course, this wouldn't really work on big maps, but on a relatively small map like Ohana, it should actually be pretty good. Stephano beat MMA as well with this similar build on Ohana during HSC 6 this week.
It's interesting that the two best TvZ players from 2011 both lost to this build in such a short time period.
On December 24 2012 06:27 Mensol wrote: If he beat MVP with roach/hydra, there is no hope for terrans.
Roach Hydra is pretty good and very viable actually. Zergs just always call Hydra's bad and refuse to use them so it became common "knowledge" that Hydras are bad.
Same way that every Zerg will tell you that if they don't get free 3 base full saturation they are ages behind.
Don't forget the weak midgame and the need of the infestor to compete with the very cost effective bio.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
stephano pretty good at trying to change some metagame but according to him he didn't find the best timing with his hydras, so wait and see
On December 24 2012 06:29 Qwerty85 wrote: I am not sure if this is Mvp not being used to such play or zergs actually exaggerate how bad hydras are.
Yes they may be bad in comparison to winfestors but not so bad to be useless, it seems.
a bit of both...
they lack the AOE that you get with bane/inestors to deal with Terran bio play... but they do a lot more single target dps than people give them credit for.
On December 24 2012 06:27 Mensol wrote: If he beat MVP with roach/hydra, there is no hope for terrans.
Roach Hydra is pretty good and very viable actually. Zergs just always call Hydra's bad and refuse to use them so it became common "knowledge" that Hydras are bad.
Same way that every Zerg will tell you that if they don't get free 3 base full saturation they are ages behind.
Don't forget the weak midgame and the need of the infestor to compete with the very cost effective bio.
Weirdly, because of marauders infestors are actually pretty bad against bio. You actually do use them as a support unit there, and go muta ling bane because that is a lot more efficient as the main dps if your army can't be sniped by 2 marauders.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
How did Queen buff have anything to do with this game? Stephano had a pretty early Roach Warren and didn't build a lot of Queens anyway. People have to stop blaming everything on the Queen buff.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
Not sure if that would work but even if it did, going straight to tanks is bad in any other situation, you wouldn't have any map control - no helions, no banshees, no way to stop fast 3rd base or pressure zerg at all.
On December 24 2012 06:27 Mensol wrote: If he beat MVP with roach/hydra, there is no hope for terrans.
Roach Hydra is pretty good and very viable actually. Zergs just always call Hydra's bad and refuse to use them so it became common "knowledge" that Hydras are bad.
Same way that every Zerg will tell you that if they don't get free 3 base full saturation they are ages behind.
This. So true. Popular builds are just too popular, 99,9% of the players just don't even think anymore, they don't always actually understand the build they're using/facing and why it is used.
This game on Stephano's side just relied on basic counters : hellions & banshee >> roach and hydra, no map control for you, no damage done to my economy, no way to defend your early third, and your mech will never be strong enough.
I don't understand why people are surprised to see this works. There was a patch that allowed zergs to push creep further especially against terrans, and most of the players who said things like "ultra are shit", "hydras are shit" well they are proven wrong times and times again. Often by Stephano lol.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
You need MMM to stop that push.
Roach/Hydra beats MMM too......
Out of creep ? Nope.
Well the point of it is that you get enough creep spread that it really doesnt matter the attacks work off creep, cause they'll almost always be on creep.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
Not sure if that would work but even if it did, going straight to tanks is bad in any other situation, you wouldn't have any map control - no helions, no banshees, no way to stop fast 3rd base or pressure zerg at all.
You can't really pressure a zergs third anymore anyway. The reason why this partially works is because of the huge eco Zerg gets early on. It's similar to the 12 minute roach max in ZvP.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
stephano pretty good at trying to change some metagame but according to him he didn't find the best timing with his hydras, so wait and see
what do you mean he didnt find the best timing?
when he has to use them maybe, he just talked about timing, nothing more so ..
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Yes I'm an idiot because there were so many things MVP could have done to stop that
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
Not sure if that would work but even if it did, going straight to tanks is bad in any other situation, you wouldn't have any map control - no helions, no banshees, no way to stop fast 3rd base or pressure zerg at all.
No I meant just open expo reactor hellion with a second factory instead of starport for seige tanks.
It is true that you will not have as much harass capabilities or map control though.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
Not sure if that would work but even if it did, going straight to tanks is bad in any other situation, you wouldn't have any map control - no helions, no banshees, no way to stop fast 3rd base or pressure zerg at all.
This is indeed the problem. Terran has to choose: 1) Deny creep? Hellion banshee --> weak to roach timings 2) Play safe with siegetanks --> creepspread will kill you
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
You need MMM to stop that push.
Stephano beat MMA and MKP using the same comp (not necessarily the same timing) at HSC.
and GanZi at LSC ... all on Ohana iirc
and some other korean terrans on ladder when he was in Korea in summer
hmm I don't remember him losing with this strategy actually :D
He beat MKP on Cloud Kingdom with it as well, MKP's response was to mass medivacs, and all the casters were saying it would be the counter to this comp, heavy medivacs, but stephano just focused down the medivacs and took engagements t to get the win.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
TLPD doesn't accurately reflect a players skill at all. Even in his injured state, MVP is probably top 15 in the world, and I wouldn't call him the underdog in any match where he has time to prepare. I think if MVP didn't have his injuries, he would still be far and away the best player in the world.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Yes I'm an idiot because there were so many things MVP could have done to stop that
I didn't say it was unstoppable. I said it makes you stupid to see it as just another zerg beating a terran which implies that it was just a generic zerg thing that stephano did. If you removed names from the game, then you could rule out the vast majority of zergs so it isn't just another zerg.
What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
Its kinda map dependent, and it takes advantage of the queen buff so there is more creep spread. On top of that, with the recent infestor nerfs (and blizz says more are coming) zergs are looking at other ways to take advantage of better defense/creep coverage instead of spines infestors and brood lords, so hydras are coming into fashion. I wonder if it'll stick.
How did Queen buff have anything to do with this game? Stephano had a pretty early Roach Warren and didn't build a lot of Queens anyway. People have to stop blaming everything on the Queen buff.
hellions weren't able to scout or do any harassment (including deny creep - plus the extra queen for creep spread ment terran had NO map control).
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
You need MMM to stop that push.
Stephano beat MMA and MKP using the same comp (not necessarily the same timing) at HSC.
and GanZi at LSC ... all on Ohana iirc
and some other korean terrans on ladder when he was in Korea in summer
hmm I don't remember him losing with this strategy actually :D
He beat MKP on Cloud Kingdom with it as well, MKP's response was to mass medivacs, and all the casters were saying it would be the counter to this comp, heavy medivacs, but stephano just focused down the medivacs and took engagements t to get the win.
MKP took a lot of small engagements though, which killed him because roach hydra are better in smaller numbers.
On December 24 2012 06:29 Popkiller wrote: this has to just be a meta thing. what was it that made zergs not do this in the beginning?
I think its if Terran starts earlier production of seige tanks (not getting starport/banshees), they will have more than enough splash to kill both roaches and hydras.
Not sure if that would work but even if it did, going straight to tanks is bad in any other situation, you wouldn't have any map control - no helions, no banshees, no way to stop fast 3rd base or pressure zerg at all.
This is indeed the problem. Terran has to choose: 1) Deny creep? Hellion banshee --> weak to roach timings 2) Play safe with siegetanks --> creepspread will kill you
Blizzard needs to fix that imo (creep).
Oh don't worry, blizzard is fixing it on HotS. Now protoss also got a ultrabuffed queen so tosses can freely be greedy or surprise you with shit tons all ins.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Better DPS (way better) and range, easier to focus fire shit like tanks.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
On December 24 2012 06:37 Bagration wrote: Wait, so Stephano beat MVP, MMA and MKP? There should be a special type of achievement for that. The triple letter Terran triad down!
Unfortunately MVP, MMA and MKP are pretty much a triad of failure at the moment. They have fallen from there former grace pretty, pretty hard. The same goes for the likes of Nestea and MC. The terrans have at least the excuse of having a shit race right now. MC and especially Nestea not so much.
EDIT: Second game. LOL. Just what I said in the last post..Simple roaches rushes kill most of the former top terrans right now. Although this was a pretty comitted one and MVP defended it considerably well.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
Mvp actually still has the highest peak elo in SC2 history. Back when he was far and away the best player and the closest thing SC2 has had to a Bonjwa. He has falled quite far since his injury. He won a GSL, yea, but he looked ugly doing it.
If you actually watch his games you'll see his mechanics aren't up to par and his gameplay has suffered. He was dominated in the Blizzard Cup as well.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
Mvp actually still has the highest peak elo in SC2 history. Back when he was far and away the best player and the closest thing SC2 has had to a Bonjwa. He has falled quite far since his injury. He won a GSL, yea, but he looked ugly doing it.
If you actually watch his games you'll see his mechanics aren't up to par and his gameplay has suffered. He was dominated in the Blizzard Cup as well.
His group play has always been pretty meh, because his strength has been in preparing for games. That's why he's the only person (I think) to even get to 2 GSL finals this year, because that's where he is most comfortable playing.
wowser didn't belief I would ever see hydra ultra again in a televised match. Well didn't used this combo for a while either. (Stole it from Stephano when he wasn't that popular)
you know i have a friend that started starcraft 2 recently, he told me that against terran he used hydra to counter some drop (it was almost 2 month ago), i laughed so hard at him, and now i see stephano doing this, lmao
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
It seems to still be 3 shots to kill either way, so in terms of defensive stuff, I'm not seeing it. Maybe the range/dps difference would be more clear in a game where the meching player is set up differently, cause mvp might have just died to a lot of things at that time.
Stephano trolling... I mean that game was one after 7 minutes rest is just some trolling never viable in a real game, you saw how the roach/hydra army melted there...
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
Mvp actually still has the highest peak elo in SC2 history. Back when he was far and away the best player and the closest thing SC2 has had to a Bonjwa. He has falled quite far since his injury. He won a GSL, yea, but he looked ugly doing it.
If you actually watch his games you'll see his mechanics aren't up to par and his gameplay has suffered. He was dominated in the Blizzard Cup as well.
His group play has always been pretty meh, because his strength has been in preparing for games. That's why he's the only person (I think) to even get to 2 GSL finals this year, because that's where he is most comfortable playing.
And group play is far more indicative of skill than games prepared for. In group play you are forced into standard play, relying on mechanics and outplaying your opponents over the course of a long game.
You were impressed by MVP cheesing Naniwa 3 games in a row?
On December 24 2012 06:51 Blackfish wrote: Stephano trolling... I mean that game was one after 7 minutes rest is just some trolling never viable in a real game, you saw how the roach/hydra army melted there...
Did you not see how he demolished MKP in HSC6 just yesterday using roach hydra?
Well at least now we know all Zerg needs to do to win without infestors is rely on doing early game damage using the advantage of having unpunishable greed to guide the terrans hand into being greedy himself.
MVP made such a huge mistake to spread his army. Look at the pityful fights. He had 170 to 190 supply in one situation but all over the map. If he had kept his shit together he would have rolled the ling ultra army.
On December 24 2012 06:51 Blackfish wrote: Stephano trolling... I mean that game was one after 7 minutes rest is just some trolling never viable in a real game, you saw how the roach/hydra army melted there...
Did you not see how he demolished MKP in HSC6 just yesterday using roach hydra?
I'll reiterate, MKP was playing pretty badly there taking small engagements around the map. That's not what you want to vs roach hydra.
On December 24 2012 06:52 NeonFox wrote: That game also proved that roach hydra sucks hard once the terran is maxed out, Stephano lost something like 60 supply for 10 of MVP.
Did we need proof of that? Thought that was gospel.
On December 24 2012 06:50 Scrubwave wrote: Ultras in hots are going to be fun.
In Hots, Ultras 2 shot marines, Hydras are as fast off creep as stimmed bio, vipers pull your tanks, swarm host locusts last 25 seconds and have higher dps than a stimmed marine, and fungal is better than it is in Wings.
On December 24 2012 06:40 dangthatsright wrote: What do hydras actually add to the composition against ground mech that more roaches wouldn't? The way that looked, it feels like the same thing would have worked with straight roaches. I guess you could deal with the banshee or something but I don't think the banshee was doing damage fast enough to make much of a difference anyways
Hydras don't take the Siege Tanks bonus damage against armored.
It seems to still be 3 shots to kill either way, so in terms of defensive stuff, I'm not seeing it. Maybe the range/dps difference would be more clear in a game where the meching player is set up differently, cause mvp might have just died to a lot of things at that time.
Hydras do more dmg and are very good but the problem is they get raped by blue flame hellions if they get flanked and are slower.
On December 24 2012 06:51 Blackfish wrote: Stephano trolling... I mean that game was one after 7 minutes rest is just some trolling never viable in a real game, you saw how the roach/hydra army melted there...
Melted? lol
That's the whole point, it traded so well that it took out more than half the army...so the remax of ultra/ling could 1a the rest..
It's just using roach/hydra as mid game map control and power presence, then trading armies and remaxing on late game army unit.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
Mvp actually still has the highest peak elo in SC2 history. Back when he was far and away the best player and the closest thing SC2 has had to a Bonjwa. He has falled quite far since his injury. He won a GSL, yea, but he looked ugly doing it.
If you actually watch his games you'll see his mechanics aren't up to par and his gameplay has suffered. He was dominated in the Blizzard Cup as well.
His group play has always been pretty meh, because his strength has been in preparing for games. That's why he's the only person (I think) to even get to 2 GSL finals this year, because that's where he is most comfortable playing.
And group play is far more indicative of skill than games prepared for. In group play you are forced into standard play, relying on mechanics and outplaying your opponents over the course of a long game.
You were impressed by MVP cheesing Naniwa 3 games in a row?
Thats your opinon. He beat Naniwa 3-1 and cheesed twice. He probably couldve beaten Nani 70 percent of the time in macro games but why bother when Nani plays so greedy he can be beat 90 percent of the time with early agression.
On December 24 2012 06:52 NeonFox wrote: That game also proved that roach hydra sucks hard once the terran is maxed out, Stephano lost something like 60 supply for 10 of MVP.
Did we need proof of that? Thought that was gospel.
Given how some terrans are bitching you'd think it was the new unbeatable composition.
On December 24 2012 06:54 Eury wrote: So Stephano has now beaten MVP, MKP and MMA with Hydra. I doubt it is thanks to random luck by now.
And Ganzi as well, even though he his the weakest of these 4 terrans.
On December 24 2012 06:50 Scrubwave wrote: Ultras in hots are going to be fun.
In Hots, Ultras 2 shot marines, Hydras are as fast off creep as stimmed bio, vipers pull your tanks, swarm host locusts last 25 seconds and have higher dps than a stimmed marine, and fungal is better than it is in Wings.
Terran gets......
Gets really strong medivacs, that together with marauders will just crush all roaches, and that's the main part of the army.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
games against MVP are probably older than week, but I'm not sure
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
games against MVP are probably older than week, but I'm not sure
Just looked it up after the games, played on the 19th.
On December 24 2012 06:50 Scrubwave wrote: Ultras in hots are going to be fun.
In Hots, Ultras 2 shot marines, Hydras are as fast off creep as stimmed bio, vipers pull your tanks, swarm host locusts last 25 seconds and have higher dps than a stimmed marine, and fungal is better than it is in Wings.
Terran gets......
Gets really strong medivacs, that together with marauders will just crush all roaches, and that's the main part of the army.
You only need a fusion core to start researching it.
I think this style requires you to be very aggressive during certain phases of the game. The problem with roach hydra is that there isn't much micro you can do with it. Stephano must choose his fights wisely because roach/hydra can be out-microed more easier than ling/bling. Notice Stephano only engaged when it was a fight in which Mvp felt like he needed to win, and running past marines to focus tanks is just very good play in which he understands the weakness of the composition and trying to make as cost efficient trade as possible.
On December 24 2012 06:30 littlebigs wrote: I can't help but to see this as another zerg beating a terran. At least the usage of Hydra's makes it kinda cool.
You do realize how stupid that makes you right? Stephano plays a completely different style, and beats one of the best players in the world. He didn't abuse infestors or brood lords, so why would this be anything like what other zergs are doing?
I personally I'm not a big fan of how stephano presents himself and his mentality, but you can't help but admire his play at least. There is nothing ordinary about that.
Mvp is not "one of the best players in the world" anymore. He's fallen all the way down to 26th in tlpd and would be the underdog against quite a few foreign Zergs.
Afaik, he is the only terran that won gsl in 2012 and only terran who got to the finals of gsl in 2012. This is a better indicator than being rated high on tlpd. He doesn't participate in that many tournaments as some other terrans like Taeja so even if he was in top form of 2011 he probably wouldn't be highest ranked terran.
Mvp actually still has the highest peak elo in SC2 history. Back when he was far and away the best player and the closest thing SC2 has had to a Bonjwa. He has falled quite far since his injury. He won a GSL, yea, but he looked ugly doing it.
If you actually watch his games you'll see his mechanics aren't up to par and his gameplay has suffered. He was dominated in the Blizzard Cup as well.
His group play has always been pretty meh, because his strength has been in preparing for games. That's why he's the only person (I think) to even get to 2 GSL finals this year, because that's where he is most comfortable playing.
And group play is far more indicative of skill than games prepared for. In group play you are forced into standard play, relying on mechanics and outplaying your opponents over the course of a long game.
You were impressed by MVP cheesing Naniwa 3 games in a row?
No group play isn't more indicative of skill. Look at Proleague, it is the single most important league in Starcraft, and considered the one it takes the most skill to do well in. And that's because you prepare for your opponent. Where do you think most of the builds in BW came from? Mostly games where someone prepared against a certain person on a certain map.
On December 24 2012 06:49 rasnj wrote: At this point I think stephano is just trying to make a point with his refusal to produce infestors.
The matchup turned upside down in early-mid game since the queen buff. It is very hard to do early pressure to zerg without going all in. The only alternative is to play greedy. Zerg can either macro like crazy (which again favors zerg as the best macro race) or kill decent amount of workers with a roach push like in game 2 because other than helions terran really has no way to control the map and helions are bad vs roaches.
That attack from Stephano is guaranteed damage to terran and terran really can't recover after that. Only situation where that game would end well for Mvp is if Stephano never made those roaches and attacked. But since he is solid zerg he knows what are current terran options and he knows he can do guaranteed damage without being all in - similar how in earlier stages of WoL terran could do guaranteed damage to zerg without being all in.
Only difference is that zerg always had late game advantage (except the turtle+ghost era) while now, terran is at a disadvantage both in the beginning but also late game stage.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
games against MVP are probably older than week, but I'm not sure
Just looked it up after the games, played on the 19th.
Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
I seriously hope to god that you are trolling, or 12.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
At the start of 2012? Sure. Right now all three of them have been suffering. Anyway, that was fun to watch Stephano just wipe MVP.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Oh god please just shut up
It's a fact just look at their results since the queen patch. 3 Terrans have won 5 tournaments out of the 30+ major ones there have been.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
As much as I love Mvp and dislike Stephano, it was pretty clear that Mvp didn't deserve to win that set. Not because "boo hoo he's Terran", but because he just hasn't been playing as well as he used to.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
As much as I love Mvp and dislike Stephano, it was pretty clear that Mvp didn't deserve to win that set. Not because "boo hoo he's Terran", but because he just hasn't been playing as well as he used to.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
Yeah MVP needs to heal. He'll always be good at coming up with strategys, and knowing how to execute them, but since his wrist injury it just looks scrappy as hell.
On December 24 2012 06:54 StarVe wrote: Stephano smashed MVP/MMA/MKP in a single week. If you had told me this last year, I'd probably have called you delusional.
games against MVP are probably older than week, but I'm not sure
Just looked it up after the games, played on the 19th.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :D Thank you, that made my day ^^
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I rather get the feeling that if the current Zerg dominance continues for another few months SC2 will just be left with only zergs watching and having a circle jerk about how awesome all zerg is.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :D Thank you, that made my day ^^
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
You are an idiot. Khaldor (and wolf) is a boss and it is abundantly clear casters put a ton of hours into their work.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
Well the whole reason the roach rush worked in the first place is because Terran is forced into a very greedy 3 oc hellion banshee build...but as you said, time and place.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
As much as I love Mvp and dislike Stephano, it was pretty clear that Mvp didn't deserve to win that set. Not because "boo hoo he's Terran", but because he just hasn't been playing as well as he used to.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
Yeah MVP needs to heal. He'll always be good at coming up with strategys, and knowing how to execute them, but since his wrist injury it just looks scrappy as hell.
You cannot afford to play blind. The four hellions opening has been pretty outdated since the queen range buff; whereas, the roach timings have been common practice for longer too.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Hard to tell in Bo1's on newer maps vs Kespa zergs tho. He has looked good tho.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
It is related to infestor/queen balance actually if you consider that to be able to counter this build, you have to play the way Mvp did. In the end, it exposes you to those kind of push, and you end up losing. That's also why the muta/bling style came back, you can use it because some terrans feel obliged to play hellion into banshee which is sensible to good muta utilisation.
There is a reason a lot of terran have been very greedy, and it's obviously because it's the only way they have found to win. Now I'm not saying it is impossible to win with another way, but almost no terran has come up with it until now. But well I agree, no need to whine about this in here, let's just wait to see if the game changes in the right direction with the next patch (january I heard?).
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
It is related to infestor/queen balance actually if you consider that to be able to counter this build, you have to play the way Mvp did. In the end, it exposes you to those kind of push, and you end up losing. That's also why the muta/bling style came back, you can use it because some terrans feel obliged to play hellion into banshee which is sensible to good muta utilisation.
There is a reason a lot of terran have been very greedy, and it's obviously because it's the only way they have found to win. Now I'm not saying it is impossible to win with another way, but almost no terran has come up with it until now. But well I agree, no need to whine about this in here, let's just wait to see if the game changes in the right direction with the next patch (january I heard?).
Actually, if the terran goes marine tank on 3 bases and pushes on his 2 2 1, he is in a good shape against zerg.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
It is related to infestor/queen balance actually if you consider that to be able to counter this build, you have to play the way Mvp did. In the end, it exposes you to those kind of push, and you end up losing. That's also why the muta/bling style came back, you can use it because some terrans feel obliged to play hellion into banshee which is sensible to good muta utilisation.
There is a reason a lot of terran have been very greedy, and it's obviously because it's the only way they have found to win. Now I'm not saying it is impossible to win with another way, but almost no terran has come up with it until now. But well I agree, no need to whine about this in here, let's just wait to see if the game changes in the right direction with the next patch (january I heard?).
Actually, if the terran goes marine tank on 3 bases and pushes on his 2 2 1, he is in a good shape against zerg.
Assuming you're talking about the 14 min 2 2 push, that's been pretty figured out by Zergs because it's been around for like a year+ now. The queen patch just made it easier to hold off.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
also Flash has been doing well in Proleague.
I think Bomber & Polt are great candidates for the title. Polt in general was just really really good recently. Not sure what's gonna happen with his move to the US now though :/
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
also Flash has been doing well in Proleague.
I think Bomber & Polt are great candidates for the title. Polt in general was just really really good recently. Not sure what's gonna happen with his move to the US now though :/
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
also Flash has been doing well in Proleague.
I think Bomber & Polt are great candidates for the title. Polt in general was just really really good recently. Not sure what's gonna happen with his move to the US now though :/
Bomber has had the potential to be a world class Terran for ages now, it's just he's so inconsistent :/
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
also Flash has been doing well in Proleague.
I think Bomber & Polt are great candidates for the title. Polt in general was just really really good recently. Not sure what's gonna happen with his move to the US now though :/
Bomber has had the potential to be a world class Terran for ages now, it's just he's so inconsistent :/
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Thank you, i needed the laugh.
why so rude? Flash demolished DRG like 2 weeks ago and then DRG went and killed Mvp, herO, Leenock and should've beaten Parting and Life but he pissed the games away.
also Flash has been doing well in Proleague.
I think Bomber & Polt are great candidates for the title. Polt in general was just really really good recently. Not sure what's gonna happen with his move to the US now though :/
Bomber has had the potential to be a world class Terran for ages now, it's just he's so inconsistent :/
Parting was very inconsistent too actually
So i have hope for Bomber
Bomber had a pretty good end of the year! maybe 2013 will be his year.
On December 24 2012 06:59 JJH777 wrote: Disappointing. Just another Terran losing. Sting winning IEM singapore really was a miracle. I almost wish he didn't so that I could say Terran hasn't won a big tournament in 4 months but oh well anyone who's not biased knows they are the worst race right now.
Just because a Terran loses a game doesn't mean it exemplifies ZvT imbalance and warrants balance whining.
That is true but you also must admit that in 2012 you have 0 terrans with what you would say "good TvZ". Although Mvp has a lot of fans, it is not just about him losing, to me it is more about how no terrans really have good TvZ anymore.
You have occasional terran that shines for a couple of weeks but no terrans that have TvZ as their strongest matchup for a longer period of time.
Makes you wonder...
I'm not saying that the match-up doesn't deserve scrutiny.
I'm saying that we don't need to hear balance whining when Mvp loses to a traditional roach rush, because that has nothing to do with infestors or queen range or the patch or anything like that. And it's not like the current #1 Terran was just destroyed after playing perfectly against a no-name Zerg.
There's a time and a place for these discussions. And I don't think Stephano vs. Mvp warranted any balance complaints.
If you think queen patch had nothing to do with that 2nd game, then tell me why did Mvp open fast 3rd cc? Why do almost all terrans play very greedy in TvZ atm? Why was Taeja very successful with his greedy macro play, only to get destroyed by Life's aggressive play in the gsl?
Zerg can secure 3rd easier because of faster creep spread, defend any pressure easier, queens cost only minerals and no larva so zerg can get more drones but still be safe to everything other than all in play.
That patch also gave zerg better early game scouting so there is less chances of surprising zerg.
It basically limits terran options severely and zerg is the race with more choices in the early game. That is why we see stuff like roach hydra work.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Can't tell from just one series really.
thats true, but he kind of just blew him out of the water. Either DRG was super jet lagged from IPL5 and didnt care about the MLG ToC or Flash has really good TvZ.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
I think his beef is the fact that it was Zenio. It was one of Zenio's better games in the first round of PL, but meh. Huge frigging map and Zenio was trying to pick off Flash's reinforcements and then attempting to flank and once Flash got his macro up he never looked back on that big map.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Can't tell from just one series really.
thats true, but he kind of just blew him out of the water. Either DRG was super jet lagged from IPL5 and didnt care about the MLG ToC or Flash has really good TvZ.
Parting 3-0ed Life and Life beat Parting 4-2 just now, one series doesn't say much.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
I think his beef is the fact that it was Zenio. It was one of Zenio's better games in the first round of PL, but meh. Huge frigging map and Zenio was trying to pick off Flash's reinforcements and then attempting to flank and once Flash got his macro up he never looked back on that big map.
Flash macro style is sooo strong on SC2. That's how terran have to win now. Good mechanics means terran can fight the zerg on an even ground.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
I think his beef is the fact that it was Zenio. It was one of Zenio's better games in the first round of PL, but meh. Huge frigging map and Zenio was trying to pick off Flash's reinforcements and then attempting to flank and once Flash got his macro up he never looked back on that big map.
Oh I thought he was digging at Flash's play in that game. I think it's pretty hard to tell how good his TvZ is, because we haven't seen enough of it. What we have seen has looked promising, but maybe in a year we can ask ourselves this question and be able to answer it.
On December 24 2012 07:24 DarkLordOlli wrote: Oh... and if Taeja gets back to summer-form, his TvZ was ridiculous.
His TvZ revolved around super greedy play and he got figured out. You only need to do what Stephano did in his game vs. Mvp - make a round of roaches and continue drone production.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
I think his beef is the fact that it was Zenio. It was one of Zenio's better games in the first round of PL, but meh. Huge frigging map and Zenio was trying to pick off Flash's reinforcements and then attempting to flank and once Flash got his macro up he never looked back on that big map.
Flash macro style is sooo strong on SC2. That's how terran have to win now. Good mechanics means terran can fight the zerg on an even ground.
Haha, Terran players have had quite arguably the best mechanics of all the races players for a while now. While the kespa players are a step up, that does not mean they are on even ground. Flash goes for engineering bay blocks in a lot of his games, what he does isn't particularly standard and that means we can't say 'Oh TvZ is fixed because terrans actually couldn't macro'.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
Because you are just talking about one series, of one player who is NOT the best ZvT player for the past months like if it was the biggest motherfucking accomplishment.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Can't tell from just one series really.
thats true, but he kind of just blew him out of the water. Either DRG was super jet lagged from IPL5 and didnt care about the MLG ToC or Flash has really good TvZ.
Those games were pretty underwhelming by DRG It was more DRG donating the game in a silver plate than flash winning in some maps
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He did look pretty good actually, especially considering it was on a new map, which he would not have had much time to practice on.
I think his beef is the fact that it was Zenio. It was one of Zenio's better games in the first round of PL, but meh. Huge frigging map and Zenio was trying to pick off Flash's reinforcements and then attempting to flank and once Flash got his macro up he never looked back on that big map.
Flash macro style is sooo strong on SC2. That's how terran have to win now. Good mechanics means terran can fight the zerg on an even ground.
It helps having really huge maps, but on a map like Arkanoid? That remains to be seen. Not sold on Fantasy smashing through Hydra on it. I think against a really good Zerg that map should be frigging hard to beat em' on.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
You are an idiot. Khaldor (and wolf) is a boss and it is abundantly clear casters put a ton of hours into their work.
You mean the amount of hours they are on camera and casting?
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
Because you are just talking about one series, of one player who is NOT the best ZvT player for the past months like if it was the biggest motherfucking accomplishment.
Yeah it was a pretty big accomplishment, because DRG is still pretty good and Flash just took him down.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
Because you are just talking about one series, of one player who is NOT the best ZvT player for the past months like if it was the biggest motherfucking accomplishment.
Yeah it was a pretty big accomplishment, because DRG is still pretty good and Flash just took him down.
To consider him the best TvZ player ? Out of one series ? You are just trolling me at this point
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
You are an idiot. Khaldor (and wolf) is a boss and it is abundantly clear casters put a ton of hours into their work.
You mean the amount of hours they are on camera and casting?
No. Watch the Real Talk with Artosis, he says that he himself is only doing Starcraft related stuff all day, everyday, whether it be playing or watching VODs, or researching the guys he has to cast next, he puts ridiculous hours in on and off camera.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
Because you are just talking about one series, of one player who is NOT the best ZvT player for the past months like if it was the biggest motherfucking accomplishment.
I dont understand why you are getting so aggressive.
lets just enjoy the games and stop talking about who has the best TvZ or who the best Terran is right now.
On December 24 2012 07:16 aventem wrote: strangely enough, right now I think flash has the best TvZ in the world. his recent games have been incredible
Yeah, he looked great against Zenio...right?
He also pwned DRG who may be the best ZvT player in WoL history.
Life and leenock had been way better at ZvT for the last months. And with this, i am not speaking about just 1 series. But months of games.
so? DRG was always one of the best zergs all year even in his slump and during his slump he played like one ZvT televised and in season 4 he killed an all terran group in the ro32 with polt and bomber and someone else.
Because you are just talking about one series, of one player who is NOT the best ZvT player for the past months like if it was the biggest motherfucking accomplishment.
Yeah it was a pretty big accomplishment, because DRG is still pretty good and Flash just took him down.
To consider him the best TvZ player ? Out of one series ? You are just trolling me at this point
I didn't say he was the best actually, that was some other guy. I did say that he has the potential to have a very strong TvZ based on what we've seen so far, though we will have to wait a long time due to the format of the various Korean leagues to confirm that.
On December 24 2012 06:55 movac wrote: my god! do wolf and khaldor ever stop casting? it seems like almost everything get's casted by them LOL. it's like they never run out of energy.
Hm and it's not like casting is any hard to do. It's a job which requires zero preparation and training actually. So why wouldn't they work. Compare that to people who work 10 hours a day in a job or players who actually have to practice to play the games the casters cast.
You are an idiot. Khaldor (and wolf) is a boss and it is abundantly clear casters put a ton of hours into their work.
You mean the amount of hours they are on camera and casting?
Just go away, I dont like most casters, but wolf & khaldor really spends alot of time catching up on metagame changes and interacting with korean players, also they've casted countless hours of material...
On December 24 2012 07:27 Thinasy wrote: Worst play of 2012
Sheth vs ToD. Unbeatable, sorry. But it was close.
Heh... dragon vs cytoplasm.
Urgh why are you guys so good at remembering bad games?
It's like when you really like a girl and she rejects you. You might not enjoy it but you'll never forget.
The girl in that analogy is... starcraft. I guess... not sure where I was going with this but that's why I remember.
Oh well, atleast with bad starcraft games you also laugh.
Oh ok, better analogy!
It's like super super bad sex. You'll be like "holy shit that was bad" afterwards but you'll have a beer with the guys later and laugh about it. Maybe. I'll let you know if I come up with anything remotely good.
On December 24 2012 07:27 Thinasy wrote: Worst play of 2012
Sheth vs ToD. Unbeatable, sorry. But it was close.
Heh... dragon vs cytoplasm.
Urgh why are you guys so good at remembering bad games?
Because they're so bad they're funny.
All poker players remember each one of the cards in their hands and on the table (plus the order they come down) of that big moment they were sure they had it and got blown up.
On December 24 2012 07:27 Thinasy wrote: Worst play of 2012
Sheth vs ToD. Unbeatable, sorry. But it was close.
Heh... dragon vs cytoplasm.
Urgh why are you guys so good at remembering bad games?
Because they're so bad they're funny.
All poker players remember each one of the cards in their hands and on the table (plus the order they come down) of that big moment they were sure they had it and got blown up.
It is known.
Oh I can attest to that and that's a better analogy compared to the other guys because just ask the players themselves and they remember those games like yesterday. Same with poker players.
On December 24 2012 07:27 Thinasy wrote: Worst play of 2012
Sheth vs ToD. Unbeatable, sorry. But it was close.
Heh... dragon vs cytoplasm.
Urgh why are you guys so good at remembering bad games?
It's like when you really like a girl and she rejects you. You might not enjoy it but you'll never forget.
The girl in that analogy is... starcraft. I guess... not sure where I was going with this but that's why I remember.
Oh well, atleast with bad starcraft games you also laugh.
Oh ok, better analogy!
It's like super super bad sex. You'll be like "holy shit that was bad" afterwards but you'll have a beer with the guys later and laugh about it. Maybe. I'll let you know if I come up with anything remotely good.
I am ok with that one, you actually made me remember of one funny sex story with a yaw involved. When i remember it i laugh, but the smell man...
That was a very exciting PvZ, simply due to the non-stop action and running battles between Zerg and Protoss. Forcing players to constantly engage and attack, rather than sit back and amass a 200/200 army. That is how PvZ should be played
On December 24 2012 07:50 Bagration wrote: That was a very exciting PvZ, simply due to the non-stop action and running battles between Zerg and Protoss. Forcing players to constantly engage and attack, rather than sit back and amass a 200/200 army. That is how PvZ should be played
Yeah, but only because zerg messed up at Mana's 3rd, therefor hecould move out.
On December 24 2012 05:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Never saw, always wondered... What's MVPs APM, compared to MKP/gumiho/ryung/bomber/polt etc other 'top terrans'?
I never thought of MVP as a flashy micro player, just insane positioning.
due to his injury mvp has to play with a low apm style (meca), but he's such a genius that his tactical sens is unmatched among other terrans
He's played mech forever. He's been like the mech guy in my mind, for fucking ever. Even though, he never really seems to play 'fast'... Like I wanna see his APM to his EAPM. Is it like 200 apm 199 eapm lol
Mvp does spam a lot as far as I recall from the MLG multi-replays I opened up in sc2gears. The lowest redundancy terrans are Polt and MKP, but Polt started spamming a bit more recently afaik.
Gogo Stephano and Mvp! :D
Mvp was actually one of the best MMM-multitasker in 2011, but since then his health got alot worse, so he has to play this slow style.
Yeah. I know, that's why I also knew that Leenock wasn't that much of a beast for beating Mvp in this MLG before he failed vs Jjakji, cuz Mvp wasn't playing his bio as well as in the past because of his health. I miss the old Mvp utter domination, in this gisado showmatches where he beat 5 of the best zergs of the planet one after another, along with winning GSL and another tourney. Scary to imagine what he could have done without his injury.
Well he pretty much always had this injury, it just got alot worse since 2011. He managed to dominate everyone with exploding wrists and he would still be untouched without it.
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
Times like this I really wished Polt had qualified.
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
Times like this I really wished Polt had qualified.
do be fair, at the start of the tournament, zergs had the most players.
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
Times like this I really wished Polt had qualified.
do be fair, at the start of the tournament, zergs had the most players.
That's because zergs were the ones that won the qualifiers. And what about the bracket?
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
4 zergs in Paris would be just hilarious but are most likely to happen. rofl..
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
4 zergs in Paris would be just hilarious but are most likely to happen. rofl..
Well Parting is in the bracket, he surely can soul his way to the semis.
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
4 zergs in Paris would be just hilarious but are most likely to happen. rofl..
Creator and PartinG could make it in my opinion. For the other non-Zergs it would surprise me if they advanced to the RO4.
But the ZvZ last Iron Squid was very entertaining, hopefully we can have something like that again.
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
4 zergs in Paris would be just hilarious but are most likely to happen. rofl..
They should squeeze all zergs in one side of the bracket (8), and put the weakest zerg on the other side together with the terrans and the protoss and avoid the tragedy of a ro4 ZvZvZvZ
On December 24 2012 08:39 StarVe wrote: 9x Zerg, 4x Protoss, 3x Terran for the RO16. At least we have three Terrans, anything below that would've been just sad.
Though neither MVP, MKP nor MMA should have a good shot if they meet a competent Zerg.
4 zergs in Paris would be just hilarious but are most likely to happen. rofl..
They should squeeze all zergs in one side of the bracket (8), and put the weakest zerg on the other side together with the terrans and the protoss and avoid the tragedy of a ro4 ZvZvZvZ
i like it. put goswser on the non-zerg side and have him face Hero, and if he somehow survives that go against the winner of creator vs parting on round of 8 :D
On December 24 2012 08:53 Laryleprakon wrote: Well Mvp got the easiest opponent. Hopefully w/e nerf DB was talking about hits before thegames are played :D
On December 24 2012 08:53 Laryleprakon wrote: Well Mvp got the easiest opponent. Hopefully w/e nerf DB was talking about hits before thegames are played :D
On December 24 2012 08:52 StarVe wrote: Final four predictions:
HerO Life/Leenock PartinG Creator/DongRaeGu
Seems reasonable, I think the top is between violet and HerO, maybe MKP can do something but HerO vs T is extremly good. Parting has only Zergs to crush and neither goswser nor Mvp are currently good enough to beat Leenock/Life I think. The bottom for are hard to call but Creator should be the favorite. Maybe we will have 3 Protoss in the top 4.
On December 24 2012 08:53 Laryleprakon wrote: Well Mvp got the easiest opponent. Hopefully w/e nerf DB was talking about hits before thegames are played :D
yeah but faces Life/Leenock
One round at a time :D
Losing to Life/Leenock is nothing to be worried about but goswer :/
On December 24 2012 08:53 Laryleprakon wrote: Well Mvp got the easiest opponent. Hopefully w/e nerf DB was talking about hits before thegames are played :D
yeah but faces Life/Leenock
One round at a time :D
Losing to Life/Leenock is nothing to be worried about but goswer :/
Why would losing to goswer be a problem? You never know who the next foreinger zerg bonjwa will be.
On December 24 2012 08:53 Laryleprakon wrote: Well Mvp got the easiest opponent. Hopefully w/e nerf DB was talking about hits before thegames are played :D
yeah but faces Life/Leenock
One round at a time :D
Losing to Life/Leenock is nothing to be worried about but goswer :/
why don't you like goswser ? He did an amazing job in his group !
HerO < MKP (this is going to be epic) viOLet > MC (this is going to be epic) Mvp < Goswser (Mvp on upset alert) Life < Leenock (this si going to be epic) PartinG > NesTea (blow out) Scarlett > Symbol (Symbol ZvZ at HSC looked terrible. Scarlett best foreign zerg other than STephano) Stephano < MMA (my pick is wrong, but I want DRG MMA) Creator < DRG (DRG looked damn good in Blizzard Cup and says he is practicing a lot and ZvP is his best MU see IPL5 interview w/ hotbid)
On December 24 2012 08:51 IronSquid wrote: Here's the bracket : Bracket
It was a random draw (1st vs 2nd and two players from the same group can't face each other before the grand finals)
HerO - MarineKing MC - viOLet Mvp - Goswser Life - Leenock PartinG - NesTea Scarlett - Symbol Stephano - MMA DongRaeGu - Creator
ho damn that prime draw. will be exciting.
Creator's going down!!!!
still has a sick h2h with DRG even when DRG peaked early this year ;D
i love when these two guys play though. Its always good games and you can never predict who is going to win.
haha, i'm gonna still say creator is a bit favoured if we get a normal DRG. but if we get god of the world drg, he's gonna take it. pretty much depends on what DRG turns up, creator's pretty consistent otherwise
On December 24 2012 08:51 IronSquid wrote: Here's the bracket : Bracket
It was a random draw (1st vs 2nd and two players from the same group can't face each other before the grand finals)
HerO - MarineKing MC - viOLet Mvp - Goswser Life - Leenock PartinG - NesTea Scarlett - Symbol Stephano - MMA DongRaeGu - Creator
ho damn that prime draw. will be exciting.
Creator's going down!!!!
still has a sick h2h with DRG even when DRG peaked early this year ;D
i love when these two guys play though. Its always good games and you can never predict who is going to win.
haha, i'm gonna still say creator is a bit favoured if we get a normal DRG. but if we get god of the world drg, he's gonna take it. pretty much depends on what DRG turns up, creator's pretty consistent otherwise
If we get god of the world drg he will take the whole tournament, otherwise it's Parting v Life in the finals I think :D
On December 24 2012 08:51 IronSquid wrote: Here's the bracket : Bracket
It was a random draw (1st vs 2nd and two players from the same group can't face each other before the grand finals)
HerO - MarineKing MC - viOLet Mvp - Goswser Life - Leenock PartinG - NesTea Scarlett - Symbol Stephano - MMA DongRaeGu - Creator
ho damn that prime draw. will be exciting.
Creator's going down!!!!
still has a sick h2h with DRG even when DRG peaked early this year ;D
i love when these two guys play though. Its always good games and you can never predict who is going to win.
haha, i'm gonna still say creator is a bit favoured if we get a normal DRG. but if we get god of the world drg, he's gonna take it. pretty much depends on what DRG turns up, creator's pretty consistent otherwise
well DRG's ZvZ looked better than leenock's in Blizzard cup and Iron Squid and better than Life's except he decided to engage terribly. If DRG beats Creator, he could win it all if his ZvZ is as good as it was last week. Im mostly worried about his ZvT at the moment but MMA will lose to Stephano 3-0 so it doesnt matter.
On December 24 2012 08:51 IronSquid wrote: Here's the bracket : Bracket
It was a random draw (1st vs 2nd and two players from the same group can't face each other before the grand finals)
HerO - MarineKing MC - viOLet Mvp - Goswser Life - Leenock PartinG - NesTea Scarlett - Symbol Stephano - MMA DongRaeGu - Creator
ho damn that prime draw. will be exciting.
Creator's going down!!!!
still has a sick h2h with DRG even when DRG peaked early this year ;D
i love when these two guys play though. Its always good games and you can never predict who is going to win.
haha, i'm gonna still say creator is a bit favoured if we get a normal DRG. but if we get god of the world drg, he's gonna take it. pretty much depends on what DRG turns up, creator's pretty consistent otherwise
well DRG's ZvZ looked better than leenock's in Blizzard cup and Iron Squid and better than Life's except he decided to engage terribly. If DRG beats Creator, he could win it all if his ZvZ is as good as it was last week. Im mostly worried about his ZvT at the moment but MMA will lose to Stephano 3-0 so it doesnt matter.
DRG and Leenock split macro games, and he took a game on an early pool, we can't say much there~ Life's ZvZ looked excellent in the RO4
On December 24 2012 08:51 IronSquid wrote: Here's the bracket : Bracket
It was a random draw (1st vs 2nd and two players from the same group can't face each other before the grand finals)
HerO - MarineKing MC - viOLet Mvp - Goswser Life - Leenock PartinG - NesTea Scarlett - Symbol Stephano - MMA DongRaeGu - Creator
ho damn that prime draw. will be exciting.
Creator's going down!!!!
still has a sick h2h with DRG even when DRG peaked early this year ;D
i love when these two guys play though. Its always good games and you can never predict who is going to win.
haha, i'm gonna still say creator is a bit favoured if we get a normal DRG. but if we get god of the world drg, he's gonna take it. pretty much depends on what DRG turns up, creator's pretty consistent otherwise
well DRG's ZvZ looked better than leenock's in Blizzard cup and Iron Squid and better than Life's except he decided to engage terribly. If DRG beats Creator, he could win it all if his ZvZ is as good as it was last week. Im mostly worried about his ZvT at the moment but MMA will lose to Stephano 3-0 so it doesnt matter.
DRG and Leenock split macro games, and he took a game on an early pool, we can't say much there~ Life's ZvZ looked excellent in the RO4
Life, Leenock and DRG often trade ZvZ series, it really depends on their form and a little bit on their luck in the choice of build orders I guess.
Life seems to have the best micro in early game, but DRG often pulls out great strategies in the early game too. I had the impression that Leenock looked better in late macro game ZvZ but he can also cheese so I'm not sure of any results involving those three
Recent history of Leenock vs Life 2-0 Leenock GSL code A S3 (little bit older) 4-3 Life MLG 2-0 Leenock IPL 5 3-1 Life Blizzard Cup
So... many... zergs. I hope the final four are not all zerg, otherwise I'll regret my ticket to the finals. ZvZ is fun when it's not all you have to watch.
Least Mvp got through, but meeting any old zerg in the next round isn't good. Hope he can get through! MMA is almost certainly losing to Stephano and MKP will struggle vs HerO, although if he plays at his best he has some kind of chance. Mvp needs to hit god mode!
Really excited for MKP vs HerO, those two are monsters at the matchup and both hyper aggressive. It'll either be a super sick series... or HerO vs Taeja-esque early wins. Hoping for sick series though. As for everything else... tough matchups for the non-zergs, I guess Parting and Mvp have the best shot at going through. Though goswer is good so anything could happen really.
At least MKP avoided a zerg! I have confidence in his tvt and tvp, just not his tvz. He's beaten hero pretty routinely in the past too, so if he plays up to his standard, hero shouldn't be a problem for him.
I think there's a good chance of at least one non-Zerg in the semis. Mvp, MC, HerO, PartinG, Creator, Marine King - any of these is good enough to advance through the ro16 (we've got at least one non-Zerg guaranteed in the quarterfinals). And then? Theoretically there might be zero Zergs in the semis. This is a utopia, to say the least, but my prediction is that there will be at least one P/T in the semis, maybe even two (most likely MC and/or Parting).
Nestea seems to be sort of player that can solve WonWonWon, though his late game ZvP is rather sketchy ATM Scarlett might actually be favored against Symbol
Other than Stephano over MMA, can't really call any match
On December 25 2012 09:22 AceHigh. wrote: I think there's a good chance of at least one non-Zerg in the semis. Mvp, MC, HerO, PartinG, Creator, Marine King - any of these is good enough to advance through the ro16 (we've got at least one non-Zerg guaranteed in the quarterfinals). And then? Theoretically there might be zero Zergs in the semis. This is a utopia, to say the least, but my prediction is that there will be at least one P/T in the semis, maybe even two (most likely MC and/or Parting).
MC is definitly not good enough at the moment to make it far, if 2 players had to be chosen on that list, id say parting/HerO or parting/creator, however HerO's PvZ is his weakest MU atm, so creator should have a higher chance of making it far, Parting is tbh almost guaranteed to make it at least quarters and very likely semis cause his oppponents are pretty meh, especially with Nestea being his ro16 opponent
On December 25 2012 10:08 X3GoldDot wrote: HerO's PvZ is his weakest MU atm
And for this reason, much as I like HerO, I don't think he'll be able to advance past Violet. However, he might be able to beat MC. But my best bet right now is Parting. He might be a one trick pony in PvZ, but he's an insanely efficient one trick pony, and one of favourite players, so I don't only think he's capable of advancig to the semis and the grand final, I also want him to do it.
On December 25 2012 10:08 X3GoldDot wrote: HerO's PvZ is his weakest MU atm
And for this reason, much as I like HerO, I don't think he'll be able to advance past Violet. However, he might be able to beat MC. But my best bet right now is Parting. He might be a one trick pony in PvZ, but he's an insanely efficient one trick pony, and one of favourite players, so I don't only think he's capable of advancig to the semis and the grand final, I also want him to do it.
hes road to semis is ridiculously easy and he basically has an insane shot at destroying nestea in ro16, scarlett and symbol arent the best players and are probably only very slightly better than nestea atm, which parting should destroy, also, expect violet to brutally crush MC and defeat HerO as his zvp is good
On December 25 2012 10:08 X3GoldDot wrote: HerO's PvZ is his weakest MU atm
And for this reason, much as I like HerO, I don't think he'll be able to advance past Violet. However, he might be able to beat MC. But my best bet right now is Parting. He might be a one trick pony in PvZ, but he's an insanely efficient one trick pony, and one of favourite players, so I don't only think he's capable of advancig to the semis and the grand final, I also want him to do it.
hes road to semis is ridiculously easy and he basically has an insane shot at destroying nestea in ro16, scarlett and symbol arent the best players and are probably only very slightly better than nestea atm, which parting should destroy, also, expect violet to brutally crush MC and defeat HerO as his zvp is good
Lol at everyone forgetting that HerO beat violet at NASL.
On December 25 2012 10:08 X3GoldDot wrote: HerO's PvZ is his weakest MU atm
And for this reason, much as I like HerO, I don't think he'll be able to advance past Violet. However, he might be able to beat MC. But my best bet right now is Parting. He might be a one trick pony in PvZ, but he's an insanely efficient one trick pony, and one of favourite players, so I don't only think he's capable of advancig to the semis and the grand final, I also want him to do it.
hes road to semis is ridiculously easy and he basically has an insane shot at destroying nestea in ro16, scarlett and symbol arent the best players and are probably only very slightly better than nestea atm, which parting should destroy, also, expect violet to brutally crush MC and defeat HerO as his zvp is good
Lol at everyone forgetting that HerO beat violet at NASL.
i expect violet to crush MC, not HerO, however i think he is a better player than HerO atm, thus hold him favored but not insanely favored, over HerO.
Hmmm you all seem to forget the recent events in the Parting v Life saga:
MLG Tournament of Champions: Parting 3 - 0 Life
2012 GSL Blizzard Cup: Life 4 - 2 Parting
What was the difference? I can tell you...If Life even smells the '3 immortal all in' he rushes to Infestor - I mean he takes insane shortcuts, a 4 gate would have a good chance at rolling him at that point... check out the cloud kingdom vod on the GSL Blizz cup to see what I am talking about...
But Life also showed (at this is why he has the highest elo ranking in my opinion) that he can deal with the '3 immortal all in' just by great splits and surrounds...I mean he is the only player to get perfect surrounds with just one ling
Anyway the line up for Squiddies 2 is a brilliant all star affair and a good measure of where the game is at:
6 Z/ 1 P/ 1T qualify
Round of 16: 9Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! / 4 P/ 3T
I want Terran or Toss to win just because the odds are soooooooo against them!
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Mini - Mvp 
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Miniraser <Ohana> 
Mvp
MaNa![[image loading]](http://ironsquid.tv/data/img/season2/TLLivereport.png)
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