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On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play...
While I know that Choya doesn't have the best reputation, and it's easy to blame him after a big loss, I think we should listen to someone that actually knows something:
On April 01 2012 16:31 FXOBoSs wrote:
Man... guys lay the fuck off choya.. Kid is the most well practiced and in form player against terran right now. Although I wasn't aware of this decision, I cannot see any problem with it since he will only be playing vs terran. I dare say, he has only practiced vs terran.
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Choya beat MMA and Ryung in GSTL recently, don't know why people think he was a bad choice
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On April 02 2012 03:03 dragonborn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... Choya's PvT is better than Oz's.You should watch Choya vs MMA. Oz is PvP/PvZ sniper with okay PvT.
Sorry, but I hate how people keep bringing up the Choya vs MMA game. MMA did the dumbest possible all in ever and nearly pulled it off. The LR thread was going crazy because of the build MMA was doing. It had nearly no chance of working. Choya didn't do anything special in that game.
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On April 02 2012 04:06 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:03 dragonborn wrote:On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... Choya's PvT is better than Oz's.You should watch Choya vs MMA. Oz is PvP/PvZ sniper with okay PvT. Sorry, but I hate how people keep bringing up the Choya vs MMA game. MMA did the dumbest possible all in ever and nearly pulled it off. The LR thread was going crazy because of the build MMA was doing. It had nearly no chance of working. Choya didn't do anything special in that game.
Exactly, and his win vs Ryung he did 1 base colossus all-in (Yay beta!), and saying that Choya's PvT is better than Oz is plain stupid. GKP defeated Parting, Ace, and Squirtle when they played vs Startale... I would argue that every single protoss is better than Choya at PvT (well mb not ace). Why would you try to beat the guy who didnt show good games vs T and in general?
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god bless the foreigners at ipl indeed, Im afraid we'll see exactly ! - 0 - ! except for the ones invited to groupplay.
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On April 02 2012 03:56 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... While I know that Choya doesn't have the best reputation, and it's easy to blame him after a big loss, I think we should listen to someone that actually knows something: Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 16:31 FXOBoSs wrote:
Man... guys lay the fuck off choya.. Kid is the most well practiced and in form player against terran right now. Although I wasn't aware of this decision, I cannot see any problem with it since he will only be playing vs terran. I dare say, he has only practiced vs terran.
This needs to be bumped more. It's why people questioning coaches' decisions to send out players is dumb, because we are not in a good position to know what the state of the house is like at the time. One of the best parts of the GSTL is getting to see all the unrecognized talent that is present on the team, and if people whining about decisions like these got their way, they'd never have been discovered.
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My liquibet... its ruiiiiinnneedddd. I'm glad Prime won as well as Startale, I just didn't foresee it. Maybe I should just follow my heart instead of my brain.
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Lets be honest here though, even if Choya DID beat GKP, leenock couldnt take down MKP regardless, which was the only real hope for beating MKP imo. Prime would have won anyway.
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On April 02 2012 04:06 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:03 dragonborn wrote:On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... Choya's PvT is better than Oz's.You should watch Choya vs MMA. Oz is PvP/PvZ sniper with okay PvT. Sorry, but I hate how people keep bringing up the Choya vs MMA game. MMA did the dumbest possible all in ever and nearly pulled it off. The LR thread was going crazy because of the build MMA was doing. It had nearly no chance of working. Choya didn't do anything special in that game.
im talking about MLG qualifiers, choya beat MMA in qualifers.
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Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys.
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On April 02 2012 05:54 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys.
have you heard of such thing as friendship? even if your friend is not as good at skating you wouldnt say that he sucks at it....besides boss, and choya are probably the two most important people that make the team work. I dont think team would work well if they didnt have good communication between them...
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On April 02 2012 04:44 dragonborn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 04:06 Corrosive wrote:On April 02 2012 03:03 dragonborn wrote:On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... Choya's PvT is better than Oz's.You should watch Choya vs MMA. Oz is PvP/PvZ sniper with okay PvT. Sorry, but I hate how people keep bringing up the Choya vs MMA game. MMA did the dumbest possible all in ever and nearly pulled it off. The LR thread was going crazy because of the build MMA was doing. It had nearly no chance of working. Choya didn't do anything special in that game. im talking about MLG qualifiers, choya beat MMA in qualifers.
Prooflink? I dont see it on TLPD....
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On April 02 2012 12:39 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 05:54 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys. have you heard of such thing as friendship? even if your friend is not as good at skating you wouldnt say that he sucks at it....besides boss, and choya are probably the two most important people that make the team work. I dont think team would work well if they didnt have good communication between them...
Uh huh, sure. So, on the basis of friendship-inspired bias, Boss's opinion of how good one of his players is at a certain matchup are rendered completely invalid (an opinion, if you give Boss any credit at all, that was definitely formed on the solid basis of actual practice results), ignoring the fact that his position as owner of the team gives him access to information that none of us here have.
What exactly are you trying to say, anyway? Do you claim that Choya is, in fact, not good at PvT at all, contrary to Boss says? Because barring a complete and utter lie by Boss concerning Choya's PvT ability, the fact stands that Choya has, unbeknownst to casual observers like us, displayed great PvT in practice and thus found it suitable to send himself out given that Prime's scariest players remaining were all Terran. Your "friendship" theory is flimsy at best because even if Boss's sticking up for Choya was motivated partly out of friendship (which I acknowledge is highly likely), the point stands that the very notion of Choya being good vT is based upon the solid foundation of in-house results. The only way your theory holds any water is if Boss is completely lying (as in, Choya is actually terrible vT and sent himself out because he's an egotistic idiot with utter disregard for his team's well-being, which I frankly find ridiculous, but it's certainly a convenient fantasy for people inclined to hate on Choya for whatever reason).
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On April 02 2012 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:39 Corsica wrote:On April 02 2012 05:54 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys. have you heard of such thing as friendship? even if your friend is not as good at skating you wouldnt say that he sucks at it....besides boss, and choya are probably the two most important people that make the team work. I dont think team would work well if they didnt have good communication between them... Uh huh, sure. So, on the basis of friendship-inspired bias, Boss's opinion of how good one of his players is at a certain matchup are rendered completely invalid (an opinion, if you give Boss any credit at all, that was definitely formed on the solid basis of actual practice results), ignoring the fact that his position as owner of the team gives him access to information that none of us here have. What exactly are you trying to say, anyway? Do you claim that Choya is, in fact, not good at PvT at all, contrary to Boss says? Because barring a complete and utter lie by Boss concerning Choya's PvT ability, the fact stands that Choya has, unbeknownst to casual observers like us, displayed great PvT in practice and thus found it suitable to send himself out given that Prime's scariest players remaining were all Terran. Your "friendship" theory is flimsy at best because even if Boss's sticking up for Choya was motivated partly out of friendship (which I acknowledge is highly likely), the point stands that the very notion of Choya being good vT is based upon the solid foundation of in-house results. The only way your theory holds any water is if Boss is completely lying (as in, Choya is actually terrible vT and sent himself out because he's an egotistic idiot with utter disregard for his team's well-being, which I frankly find ridiculous, but it's certainly a convenient fantasy for people inclined to hate on Choya for whatever reason).
Well, even if boss thinks that Choya wasnt good choice, he wont tell it to everybody here...
Choya went to play when GKP killed lucky, and so prime had 3 great terrans to close of series (Maru, MKP, GKP). I just dont see how Oz is not a better choice over Choya. Last PvT ive seen from Choya : 1) 1 base colossus 2) holding 1 base allin from MMA, and before that in GSTL (vs ST) GKP defeated Ace, Squirtle and PartinG... i would argue that Choya is class before Squirtle and Parting... but Oz (as semifinalist) is quite good at MU, and very top level protoss. Thats it, im not saying Choya is bad at game, just not same level as GKP TvP, and Oz' PvT...
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France13021 Posts
Choya or Oz it would not matter anyways, MKP and Byun are too good in TvP if you let one of them choose the map it's over.
So glad Prime won, as expectef they are in the finals :D
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On April 02 2012 14:05 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On April 02 2012 12:39 Corsica wrote:On April 02 2012 05:54 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys. have you heard of such thing as friendship? even if your friend is not as good at skating you wouldnt say that he sucks at it....besides boss, and choya are probably the two most important people that make the team work. I dont think team would work well if they didnt have good communication between them... Uh huh, sure. So, on the basis of friendship-inspired bias, Boss's opinion of how good one of his players is at a certain matchup are rendered completely invalid (an opinion, if you give Boss any credit at all, that was definitely formed on the solid basis of actual practice results), ignoring the fact that his position as owner of the team gives him access to information that none of us here have. What exactly are you trying to say, anyway? Do you claim that Choya is, in fact, not good at PvT at all, contrary to Boss says? Because barring a complete and utter lie by Boss concerning Choya's PvT ability, the fact stands that Choya has, unbeknownst to casual observers like us, displayed great PvT in practice and thus found it suitable to send himself out given that Prime's scariest players remaining were all Terran. Your "friendship" theory is flimsy at best because even if Boss's sticking up for Choya was motivated partly out of friendship (which I acknowledge is highly likely), the point stands that the very notion of Choya being good vT is based upon the solid foundation of in-house results. The only way your theory holds any water is if Boss is completely lying (as in, Choya is actually terrible vT and sent himself out because he's an egotistic idiot with utter disregard for his team's well-being, which I frankly find ridiculous, but it's certainly a convenient fantasy for people inclined to hate on Choya for whatever reason). Well, even if boss thinks that Choya wasnt good choice, he wont tell it to everybody here... Choya went to play when GKP killed lucky, and so prime had 3 great terrans to close of series (Maru, MKP, GKP). I just dont see how Oz is not a better choice over Choya. Last PvT ive seen from Choya : 1) 1 base colossus 2) holding 1 base allin from MMA, and before that in GSTL (vs ST) GKP defeated Ace, Squirtle and PartinG... i would argue that Choya is class before Squirtle and Parting... but Oz (as semifinalist) is quite good at MU, and very top level protoss. Thats it, im not saying Choya is bad at game, just not same level as GKP TvP, and Oz' PvT...
See, that's the problem. What you're doing is only using what you've seen you justify your views. So, if a coach makes a decision people don't agree with because the decision is made on the basis of in-house information that nobody here is privy to, that decision is still justified as "wrong" by people like you, because you can rationalize your criticism of the decision by bringing up instances of public performances as your evidence, while playing the friendship or bias card if anyone with inside information comes forward to explain things. Thus, you've created a system of rationalization that basically allows you to justify your own views while conveniently ignoring accounts from people far more intimately involved with the SC2 scene than you are.
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On April 02 2012 12:42 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 04:44 dragonborn wrote:On April 02 2012 04:06 Corrosive wrote:On April 02 2012 03:03 dragonborn wrote:On April 02 2012 03:00 Corsica wrote:
Isnt it funny how Choya's arrogance became theme for losing this match? not putting PvT specialist but himself to play... Choya's PvT is better than Oz's.You should watch Choya vs MMA. Oz is PvP/PvZ sniper with okay PvT. Sorry, but I hate how people keep bringing up the Choya vs MMA game. MMA did the dumbest possible all in ever and nearly pulled it off. The LR thread was going crazy because of the build MMA was doing. It had nearly no chance of working. Choya didn't do anything special in that game. im talking about MLG qualifiers, choya beat MMA in qualifers. Prooflink? I dont see it on TLPD....
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324851
Winner's Round 3
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On April 02 2012 14:17 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:05 Corsica wrote:On April 02 2012 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On April 02 2012 12:39 Corsica wrote:On April 02 2012 05:54 HolyArrow wrote:
Haha, when FXOBoss himself tells you guys to fuck off and stop giving Choya shit, you should probably listen. Choya's getting a pretty unfair deal here. What probably happened is that Choya is in great PvT shape (as the team owner himself claims, and if you're blindly arrogant enough to brush his words aside then it's pointless to even argue with you at all) , and put himself out knowing that Prime pretty much had only Byun, MKP, and Maru left. Then, he succumbed to a 1-1-1 variant, something that many, many Toss players have died to before. Meanwhile, people who are inclined to hate on Choya conveniently use this situation as an excuse to just laugh at him and call him a shitty player, despite the team owner himself vouching for him and despite his success in the past team matches. Classy, guys. have you heard of such thing as friendship? even if your friend is not as good at skating you wouldnt say that he sucks at it....besides boss, and choya are probably the two most important people that make the team work. I dont think team would work well if they didnt have good communication between them... Uh huh, sure. So, on the basis of friendship-inspired bias, Boss's opinion of how good one of his players is at a certain matchup are rendered completely invalid (an opinion, if you give Boss any credit at all, that was definitely formed on the solid basis of actual practice results), ignoring the fact that his position as owner of the team gives him access to information that none of us here have. What exactly are you trying to say, anyway? Do you claim that Choya is, in fact, not good at PvT at all, contrary to Boss says? Because barring a complete and utter lie by Boss concerning Choya's PvT ability, the fact stands that Choya has, unbeknownst to casual observers like us, displayed great PvT in practice and thus found it suitable to send himself out given that Prime's scariest players remaining were all Terran. Your "friendship" theory is flimsy at best because even if Boss's sticking up for Choya was motivated partly out of friendship (which I acknowledge is highly likely), the point stands that the very notion of Choya being good vT is based upon the solid foundation of in-house results. The only way your theory holds any water is if Boss is completely lying (as in, Choya is actually terrible vT and sent himself out because he's an egotistic idiot with utter disregard for his team's well-being, which I frankly find ridiculous, but it's certainly a convenient fantasy for people inclined to hate on Choya for whatever reason). Well, even if boss thinks that Choya wasnt good choice, he wont tell it to everybody here... Choya went to play when GKP killed lucky, and so prime had 3 great terrans to close of series (Maru, MKP, GKP). I just dont see how Oz is not a better choice over Choya. Last PvT ive seen from Choya : 1) 1 base colossus 2) holding 1 base allin from MMA, and before that in GSTL (vs ST) GKP defeated Ace, Squirtle and PartinG... i would argue that Choya is class before Squirtle and Parting... but Oz (as semifinalist) is quite good at MU, and very top level protoss. Thats it, im not saying Choya is bad at game, just not same level as GKP TvP, and Oz' PvT... See, that's the problem. What you're doing is only using what you've seen you justify your views. So, if a coach makes a decision people don't agree with because the decision is made on the basis of in-house information that nobody here is privy to, that decision is still justified as "wrong" by people like you, because you can rationalize your criticism of the decision by bringing up instances of public performances as your evidence, while playing the friendship or bias card if anyone with inside information comes forward to explain things. Thus, you've created a system of rationalization that basically allows you to justify your own views while conveniently ignoring accounts from people far more intimately involved with the SC2 scene than you are.
I agree with that, in fact i often use this argument 
but we will never know what would happen if they would forgo choya  , only know i realize how pointless this argument is but %-wise im still right
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The only thing that I saw Choya do wrong was epic fail defense vs the 3 hellions. If not for that, he was in a position to dominate GKP's unit composition.
That MKP guy, though. OMG, can he be stopped?
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Anyone else watching the rebroadcst of old matches ?
When GSTL was casted by Tastosis, Tald'arim was in the map pool, Prime was Prime.We and still had Polt, and Rainbow played for Startale =)
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EPT
