- Best of 5 -- 4 BO3 1v1s (Updated for playoffs) -- If tied after all 4 games there is a BO5 Ace Match (Updated for FINALS) - Players are picked before the match is started and picked based on the given map - 7 Week Season - Top 4 are seeded into Playoffs
Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
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I predict Hero beats MorroW 2-1 Zenio has some trouble vs terran, but ThorZaIN has trouble vs zerg, I think a 2-1 ThorZaIN wins. Ret vs Mana is kind of a hard one, I think it'll be a 2-1 either can win. Sheth will beat HasuObs I feel. I want to say 2-0 but I think HasuObs always makes big upsets so he might take it.
On March 19 2012 02:35 drbrown wrote: Looks like Mouz got really unlucky with this one, all of their players in their worst match-ups...
I agree with this. I think Ret will beat Mana, but for some reason I got a weird gut feeling that Mana will magically pull the wins out of his ass, I hope they do go to Ace Match at least.
God this will be close, but I give Liquid the edge. A lot of PvZ too. Would not be surprised if Hero, Ret and Sheth take their matches and Liquid wins 3-1.
The matchups and maps favor liquid a little, except for match 2. It's going to be awesome non-the less :D I hope for an ace match between Thorzain and Hero.
Morrow < Hero Thorzain > Zenio Mana < Ret Hasu < Sheth
1-3 Liquid.
Though I can see one of Morrow or Mana stealing their games (not too likely), forcing an ace match. In that case it could go either way with Thorzain against Hero propably. Thorzain have been bossing it up lately in the team leagues so I'm hoping for this scenario.
I have a feeling hasu might beat Sheth I mean the red bull lan sheth was looking fairly weak against stargate play and Hasu was only a few meters away! Still thinking liquid to win in the ace match though
This is going to be a hard one to call, can't wait to see the games. It can really go either way though, I think mouz got the better end of the match ups. Still, Liquid can take this.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
I'm really hoping you aren't implying a conspiracy. Then again, you probably are. From the OP under Format:
- Best of 5 -- 4 BO3 1v1s (Updated for playoffs) -- If tied after all 4 games there is a BO5 Ace Match (Updated for FINALS) - Players are picked before the match is started and picked based on the given map - 7 Week Season - Top 4 are seeded into Playoffs
So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
HEY! We share the same birthday. Happy birth day mate.
21 today. And go LIQUID! Edit: and our post count is almost identical.
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
Sure sure, of course, I probably used the wrong words there. I meant more like their choices didn't work out for them as well as yours did. I sure didn't mean that you guys drew names from a raffle box and hoped they worked.
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
HEY! We share the same birthday. Happy birth day mate.
21 today. And go LIQUID! Edit: and our post count is almost identical.
Yay ^^; we share with the mighty Bruce Willis as well!
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
Sure sure, of course, I probably used the wrong words there. I meant more like their choices didn't work out for them as well as yours did. I sure didn't mean that you guys drew names from a raffle box and hoped they worked.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with you. I know for a fact that they were aiming for MorroW against HerO or Zenio, but anticipated HerO. Besides that I think MaNa's PvZ has gotten very strong lately and I don't think he specifically is a PvZ player anymore. ThorZaIN against Zenio is in my opinion a strong draw for mouz as Zenio has been struggling a lot against Terrans in general, even though taking down sC and making his way into Code S. HasuObs would probably be the underdog against any of our players, so it's hard to argue that one. I do think he's a great late-game player and he knows how to play to his strengths.
From our perspective, we're happy with the draft as well. We don't believe that Zenio's ZvT record as of recently reflects his skill in the matchup at all. We also believe that Ret has very strong ZvP, even though it's probably his "worst" matchup, he's definitely still one of the best players in the matchup (looking at foreign players). We're obviously happy with HerO getting PvZ and not getting MaNa on Tal'darim (which mouz has a big record of doing). We do believe HerO to be one of the strongest, if not the strongest PvZ player in the world. Speaking of Sheth, it's kind of a funny one because he has a very good ZvP record as of late, but we actually feel - he also shares this thought a bit - that the matchup is a bit weird and not exactly sure on how to engage the matchup (not army vs army, but in mind and strategy).
Giving Liquid the upper hand, considering that they have strong players and this format does not allow teams to absue their weakness, that is having a main lineup of all zerg plus hero. However, I want mouz to win.
This is difficult to predict... I feel like Mouz got worse matchups but can still win here. However if Liquid wins 3-1 or something I wouldn't be surprised.
I think Zenio beats Thorzain, and that will be the killer blow. Hero will beat Morrow despite his improved ZvP, so more pressure of Tzain, less on Zenio. And escaping the Up and Downs is huge for him. no weight on Zenio's shoulders. A great team, great results, another Code S season.He'll get the Zain. His victory will decide this in TL's favour.
You guys picked one of the worst possible times to air this, two other big tournaments going on at the same time. I hope you were not expecting big viewer numbers.
On March 19 2012 05:59 Mauldo wrote: So it was just unlucky choosing from Mouz, and lucky choosing from Liquid.
I hope you understand that there goes a lot of thought, strategy and research into picking the lineups. I would be sad if people think it's just about being lucky/not lucky.
Sure sure, of course, I probably used the wrong words there. I meant more like their choices didn't work out for them as well as yours did. I sure didn't mean that you guys drew names from a raffle box and hoped they worked.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with you. I know for a fact that they were aiming for MorroW against HerO or Zenio, but anticipated HerO. Besides that I think MaNa's PvZ has gotten very strong lately and I don't think he specifically is a PvZ player anymore. ThorZaIN against Zenio is in my opinion a strong draw for mouz as Zenio has been struggling a lot against Terrans in general, even though taking down sC and making his way into Code S. HasuObs would probably be the underdog against any of our players, so it's hard to argue that one. I do think he's a great late-game player and he knows how to play to his strengths.
From our perspective, we're happy with the draft as well. We don't believe that Zenio's ZvT record as of recently reflects his skill in the matchup at all. We also believe that Ret has very strong ZvP, even though it's probably his "worst" matchup, he's definitely still one of the best players in the matchup (looking at foreign players). We're obviously happy with HerO getting PvZ and not getting MaNa on Tal'darim (which mouz has a big record of doing). We do believe HerO to be one of the strongest, if not the strongest PvZ player in the world. Speaking of Sheth, it's kind of a funny one because he has a very good ZvP record as of late, but we actually feel - he also shares this thought a bit - that the matchup is a bit weird and not exactly sure on how to engage the matchup (not army vs army, but in mind and strategy).
Happy Birthday!
I like how Liquid has such good faith in its players. I'd disagree with Hero being one of the best pvz players (he's really good but not good enough against the best zergs like DRG), but it's nice to see the confidence. I think that factor really brings the best out of a team. Liquid hwaiting!
On March 19 2012 10:25 flexgd wrote: this is why u never go mutas versus protoss ever again
That's stupid. Why don't you just add some Infestors?
Stephano said that he loves when the protoss is building phoenix with +2 range upgrade against his muta build.
Split the pheonixes and lift the infestors.
Stephano says a lot of things based off the EU Protoss players he gets to trash around all day.
It's infestors + mutas (with upgrades). You can't split your phoenix, kill the infestors and fly away from the mutas at the same time, not even if you are a korean.
On March 19 2012 10:25 flexgd wrote: this is why u never go mutas versus protoss ever again
That's stupid. Why don't you just add some Infestors?
Stephano said that he loves when the protoss is building phoenix with +2 range upgrade against his muta build.
Split the pheonixes and lift the infestors.
Stephano says a lot of things based off the EU Protoss players he gets to trash around all day.
It's infestors + mutas (with upgrades). You can't split your phoenix, kill the infestors and fly away from the mutas at the same time, not even if you are a korean.
You're ignoring the support army, of course phoenixes alone will lose to muta infestor, but I'd rather not argue theorycraft. Let's just say you would be surprised what people can pull off.
On March 19 2012 10:25 flexgd wrote: this is why u never go mutas versus protoss ever again
That's stupid. Why don't you just add some Infestors?
Stephano said that he loves when the protoss is building phoenix with +2 range upgrade against his muta build.
Split the pheonixes and lift the infestors.
Stephano says a lot of things based off the EU Protoss players he gets to trash around all day.
It's infestors + mutas (with upgrades). You can't split your phoenix, kill the infestors and fly away from the mutas at the same time, not even if you are a korean.
let me clarify. 1.) u dont go mutas vs anykind of ffe into stargate. 2.) how much gas do u think u have? 10?
On March 19 2012 10:25 flexgd wrote: this is why u never go mutas versus protoss ever again
That's stupid. Why don't you just add some Infestors?
Stephano said that he loves when the protoss is building phoenix with +2 range upgrade against his muta build.
Split the pheonixes and lift the infestors.
Stephano says a lot of things based off the EU Protoss players he gets to trash around all day.
It's infestors + mutas (with upgrades). You can't split your phoenix, kill the infestors and fly away from the mutas at the same time, not even if you are a korean.
You're ignoring the support army, of course phoenixes alone will lose to muta infestor, but I'd rather not argue theorycraft. Let's just say you would be surprised what people can pull off.
I'm not saying that it's an easy win with infestors and mutas, it comes down to micro, but the game definitely didn't show that "this is why you never go mutas versus protoss ever again".
On March 19 2012 10:25 flexgd wrote: this is why u never go mutas versus protoss ever again
That's stupid. Why don't you just add some Infestors?
Stephano said that he loves when the protoss is building phoenix with +2 range upgrade against his muta build.
Split the pheonixes and lift the infestors.
Stephano says a lot of things based off the EU Protoss players he gets to trash around all day.
It's infestors + mutas (with upgrades). You can't split your phoenix, kill the infestors and fly away from the mutas at the same time, not even if you are a korean.
You're ignoring the support army, of course phoenixes alone will lose to muta infestor, but I'd rather not argue theorycraft. Let's just say you would be surprised what people can pull off.
I'm not saying that it's an easy win with infestors and mutas, it comes down to micro, but the game definitely didn't show that "this is why you never go mutas versus protoss ever again".
Oh no let me make this clear, I completely agree with you. The other poster was exaggerating far too much. Some people ( cough nony ) say Phoenixes are bad and the range upgrade is useless, which is just not true.
This game is pretty incredible. Such a slugfest, and both players are so evenly matched. Definitely seems like Thorzain is going to take it at this point, but what a ride.
thorzain the hero of nastl, beating everyone. But haha those seeker missiles and neurals were pretty crappy most of the time. But epic game ^.^ . with some back and forth. And ultras on daybreak was a funny thing to see.
Wow what a game, Zenio is like negation of Idra, staying in the game despite disadvantage and holding for so many times. Definitely GG and now we will see at least 2 more matches
Clearly, ret only canceled the spine crawlers because he saw it was friendly ol' Bumblebee at his door, when it was really Mana pulling a trojan horse trick on his ass. XD
Really doubt Liquid can pull this back. Thorzain is the king of team leagues in general and ace matches in particular. That being said, would not mind seeing another Thorzain v HerO TvP.
On March 19 2012 12:33 RezChi wrote: HOLY SHIT, When i was about to tank my game i hear incontorl going "HEY HEY DON'T" *clicks surrender* "Oh come on"
That last storm at the end (dead on and nowhere to run so you pretty much have to sit in it) was the kind of thing that lets terran players have nightmares for weeks.
I just spent 2 days watching the Lone Star tourney and Red Bull lan.... I turn on NASL for 5 minutes and see some drama llama stuff going down. Why is it always NASL lol ^^;;
On March 19 2012 13:37 Befree wrote: Liquid is under attack today :p. Kas had some final words for TLO earlier today. Now Thorzain with some final words.
Lolwut, what did Kas say to TLO? [also, is there a thread for that showmatch? never heard about that til i checked r/starcraft]
Wow. Ouch. But still, ggz to Team Liquid and Team Mousesports and congrats on taking 1st and 2nd place, especially after beating out the Korean pro teams.
On March 19 2012 13:37 CardinalSC wrote: For those who didn't see it, he said "gg thanks team liquid for making me play the ace match now without any warm up and on the korean server"
It always sucks to lose an ace.. Its not only your own ambition that rests on your shoulders, but your entire team depends on you as well, losing like that, 3-0 must be super frustrating for him - Im pretty sure it was just in the moment, in any other situation he wouldnt have written that
lol all the time not on the korean server and then suddenly the ace match on korean server? that sucks for mouz so i understand that reaction. grats to tl and mouz for first and second.
On March 19 2012 13:38 ejac wrote: Meh, I can completely understand how someone gets frustrated over servers and what not, but ultimately this is blizzards fault, no team in particular.
Well only part of his complaint was because of the server, the other was that Liquid was not too accomodating as far as scheduling goes.
Good job HerO, sorta disappointing from Thorzain, I agree with Incontrol that it's just a reality of the game at this point... Looking forward to Liquid in 2012!
also good job mouz on taking it to the ace, was a great match overall!
NASL, I must say that this was definitely a good production, despite some still present flaws that could be fixed. I think that you definitely deserve some credit for putting this together! Good Job!
On March 19 2012 13:39 FeyFey wrote: lol all the time not on the korean server and then suddenly the ace match on korean server? that sucks for mouz so i understand that reaction. grats to tl and mouz for first and second.
I believe there is a statement coming from NASL, thorzains statements didn't reflect what went down.
On March 19 2012 13:38 ejac wrote: Meh, I can completely understand how someone gets frustrated over servers and what not, but ultimately this is blizzards fault, no team in particular.
Well only part of his complaint was because of the server, the other was that Liquid was not too accomodating as far as scheduling goes.
Thorzain's statements really didn't reflect how things happened.
On March 19 2012 13:38 figq wrote: I can't recall ever seeing Thorzain saying something so bitter in chat upon losing. Interesting.
Ah well... Year of Liquid it is!
Incontrol has said on SotG (when discussing IdrA's bm light heartedly and jokingly) that Thorzain is secretly kind of bm an dgets quite upset over losses.
I don't understand why Thorzain is blaming Team Liquid? Since when does Team Liquid run NASTL and make the rules on servers etc? I have lost a ton of respect for him due to that BM.
Also, TL had players from Korea, Europe and USA in this tournament on different servers - server excuses don't fly here.
Don't know why Thorzain would bitch at TL, it's NASL rules. That's like saying "Damn Packers, thanks for making me play on your home field even though NFL rules made me. Your fault."
Then again, it was probably just sour grapes. Getting rolled 0-3 when your team is counting on your as ace for $6,000 in a team tournament (and especially after that game 3) can't feel good.
I'm not excusing it completely, but at least he said "gg wp hero" at the very end. I think he's being genuine about that part.
I hope this blows over pretty quickly, though. Hero and Thorzain are both great players and have been great representatives for professional/competitive StarCraft 2 up till now
On March 19 2012 13:41 SCST wrote: I don't understand why Thorzain is blaming Team Liquid? Since when does Team Liquid run NASTL and make the rules on servers etc? I have lost a ton of respect for him due to that BM.
I don't think all these games were played right after the other. They may have been played on separate days. What it sounds like is perhaps Thorzain is blaming TL for making him play immediately when called and pressuring him to go without any warm up? But it's all speculation at this point. I wouldn't be too surprised if Thorzain makes a public statement or tweet now retracting at least part of what he said "in the heat of the moment" (of game #3).
@Plexa, how soon will this statement be released? Im guessing these matches were played in advance and then recorded as inControl is at Lone Star Clash and Ret/Sheth were at Red Bull LAN.
Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
On March 19 2012 13:43 Lennient wrote: so TL can choose the ace for Mouz :| I thought it was up to Mouz to choose their own ace
not the player, the time and server according to Thorzain. However Plexa said Liquid might be making a statement of explanation, for their side of the story
maybe TL said the match must be play at a certain time to accomodate korean timezone and schedule for HerO? Even so, Thorzain shouldn't b*tch about something after his team agreed to it. Sore loser...
On March 19 2012 13:43 Lennient wrote: so TL can choose the ace for Mouz :| I thought it was up to Mouz to choose their own ace
Don't be ridiculous. There's no way TL CHOSE Mouz's ace. In addition to having no precedent at all and not making any sense, do you really think they'd choose Thorzain in that situation?
I'm assuming Thorzain was referencing some kind of scheduling conflict or something. Just wait for TL's official statement please, before posting misleading comments like that.
On March 19 2012 13:43 Lennient wrote: so TL can choose the ace for Mouz :| I thought it was up to Mouz to choose their own ace
I think the point was not that they forced him specifically, but the time of the match. Of course that is what ThorZain is saying,how it was who knows.
On March 19 2012 13:38 figq wrote: I can't recall ever seeing Thorzain saying something so bitter in chat upon losing. Interesting.
Ah well... Year of Liquid it is!
Incontrol has said on SotG (when discussing IdrA's bm light heartedly and jokingly) that Thorzain is secretly kind of bm an dgets quite upset over losses.
I think I remember this, but I assumed he was joking. Maybe he had actual reasons to believe so.
Still, to note that the way Thorzain expresses himself when he's upset is thousands miles away from any usual bm.
Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week, and then explain what happened from my (as a neutral 3rd party and league administrator) perspective. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
On March 19 2012 13:45 CardinalSC wrote: @Plexa, how soon will this statement be released? Im guessing these matches were played in advance and then recorded as inControl is at Lone Star Clash and Ret/Sheth were at Red Bull LAN.
Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3 Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time) Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games) Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won) We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
Good Statement NASL, prompt and clearing things up quickly. I agree that your solution is fair and the best available given the circumstances.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
Sounds totally fair. Mouz picked an ace player who wasn't even there to play. They got to delay the game because of it, and the games were sever swapping, so there is really nothing legitimate to whine about.
Ok, after reading Xeris' statement, I really don't see any wrong doing from TL here. Server switching was based predecided rules (and I think TL even gave up some of the advantage there?). Also, scheduled time was a no choice kind of thing, and disadvantageous to BOTH sides.
I don't think anyone should think any less of Thorzain. He was obviously upset. He lost games, had to play with jet lag and on different settings than he's used to at home. I would be frustrated too.
On March 19 2012 13:46 Xeris wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week, and then explain what happened from my (as a neutral 3rd party and league administrator) perspective. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
Thanks Xeris, it seems that neither Liquid or NASL has done any wrong here
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
Thanks for the statement Xeris. I honestly don't blame anyone for the situation and your statement really cleared things up that were muddied by Thorzain's statement. In other words basically just blow off the statement from Thorzain as frustration for losing the way he did.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: [*] NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won) - Xeris
And according to that, TL could have actually claimed complete server advantage in the ace match, but agreed to do a server swap between each game out of fairness.
dont want to keep on this too much but, if Mouz knew HerO was ace and apparently they had chance to switch players because Thorzain was having time issues but still insisted to keep Thozain, (I would agree prob their best chance against HerO) his anger seems misplaced
also remember in the round robin Thorzain played in the ace and lost 2-1 to Ret, must be frustrating
On March 19 2012 13:46 Xeris wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week, and then explain what happened from my (as a neutral 3rd party and league administrator) perspective. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
Thank you for this quick statement. This really clears up the misunderstandings that we viewers had. Side note: Can people seriously just use spoiler tags or something instead of quoting the whole post? It makes it more difficult to scroll through the page.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
On March 19 2012 13:39 FeyFey wrote: lol all the time not on the korean server and then suddenly the ace match on korean server? that sucks for mouz so i understand that reaction. grats to tl and mouz for first and second.
I believe there is a statement coming from liquid, thorzains statements didn't reflect what went down.
I am curious about that so yay for a statement even if its not necessary, but since it was played it seems to have been okay for both teams (or no other choice given by the admins). But i think its okay to get upset like this in a team game, when the whole victory of the time lies on your shoulders and you lose because there was something making you not play to your best abilities, know this myself quiet well. I am just happy my two favorite teams came so far.
On March 19 2012 13:49 Xeris wrote: I don't think anyone should think any less of Thorzain. He was obviously upset. He lost games, had to play with jet lag and on different settings than he's used to at home. I would be frustrated too.
It was a bad situation for both parties.
Makes sense. It's unfortunate that it happened this way but I understand his anger.
Either way, I don't think this small bit of drama should overshadow TL's victory here. Very well-played!
I'd be interested in seeing what Thorzain in particular has to say about this, because
1) From NASL's statement, there is essentially no way to find even the slightest bit of fault for TL
and
2) I can't imagine anyone - and Thorzain in particular - simply making up a complaint to throw out as BM.
Based on this, I have to assume there is at least something specific that prompted Thorzain's complaint. I can imagine it may have been simply a misunderstanding on his part - perhaps he thought it was a matter of TL's choice and not NASL's situation. Perhaps it was not a misunderstanding, but something very minor which Thorzain blew out of proportion in his anger. Whatever it was, there must have been at least something which would at least make sense - even if it is an invalid complaint or something unjustified. I'm curious, in other words, what exactly it is that Thorzain was referring to.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
People apparently thrive on Drama.. just look at how popular celebrity & reality TV culture is in the USA at the very least. I dunno how bad it is in Europe.
On March 19 2012 13:39 FeyFey wrote: lol all the time not on the korean server and then suddenly the ace match on korean server? that sucks for mouz so i understand that reaction. grats to tl and mouz for first and second.
I believe there is a statement coming from liquid, thorzains statements didn't reflect what went down.
I am curious about that so yay for a statement even if its not necessary, but since it was played it seems to have been okay for both teams (or no other choice given by the admins). But i think its okay to get upset like this in a team game, when the whole victory of the time lies on your shoulders and you lose because there was something making you not play to your best abilities, know this myself quiet well. I am just happy my two favorite teams came so far.
it was one BM people should settle down and quit trying to find another SC2-Drama related problem with every BM and RAGE this isnt jersey shore for crying out loud
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Thank you to Xeris and NASL for giving information so quickly. Of all your production, the team league is definitely the one I have enjoyed the most overall.
And just happy for Liquid. Is nice to be emotionally invested in a team ten years after I stopped watching soccer.
Everything is super busy all the time, it's really hard to schedule games to be played, and sometimes they need to be played at awkward times or in awkward situations. That's just the way it is, and there's nothing wrong or right about it. No hard feelings towards ThorZaIN from me, he's an excellent player, and so is HerO!
Each team gets to choose their Ace.. so the team knew of Thorzain's not so ideal situation.. Thorzain himself knew of his not so ideal situation..
Liquid likewise knew of Hero's unideal sitauation as well (as did Hero).
They both took risks that they 100% had control over (pick someone else). Both teams can only accept the consequences of their actions (no excuses). In this case, it paid off for Liquid, as Hero was able to muster his A-game at 4am KST.
In the end.. Kudos to both NASL and the teams for agreeing on fair terms and the unprecedented / very accomodating compromise.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Agree. The only loser in this Thorzain "venting" bullshit was Hero, who did the terrible act of... winning the game.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
On March 19 2012 14:05 Bagration wrote: Are people seriously considering a witch hunt on Thorzain? Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
Don't see anything on the front page of Reddit yet so I am not too too worried. :D
And yeah, it was not the most...graceful final seconds of the ace match ever, but hey, at least the casters made the best of what otherwise might have been very awkward.
Was amazing to see HerO play like that, so happy with how his PvT is progressing. I still have my doubts about his matchup vs the very best of the best Terrans, but that is not an unenviable situation to be in! <3
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness as if people are trying to crucify Thorzain.
It's very simple: he disrespected his opponent after the game ended, most people will forgive him. He should apologize to Hero and TL in some way - whether he actually does this or not is up to him.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness.
I am not saying "Good job Thorzain" I am saying "Who cares ?".
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness.
I am not saying "Good job Thorzain" I am saying "Who cares ?".
Exactly. I think more people just don't want to see people bringing more attention to a point that doesn't need anymore notice. You're only going to get more fans focus on the whining rather than the deserved victory here.
EDIT: It's not like we're excusing him, we're just saying that it's not that big of a deal.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness as if people are trying to crucify Thorzain.
It's very simple: he disrespected his opponent after the game ended, most people will forgive him. He should apologize to Hero and TL in some way - whether he actually does this or not is up to him.
ya, i do understand Thorzain's position but what he did was... he took away clean win and just made drama. Even some ppl in this thread has said that what happened at the end has taken some of the "win" away. That's what i find more upsetting.
He was manner to Hero still, with the gg wp. He was (perhaps understandably) upset at the situation, and losing the series for his team. It's a lot of pressure to be under and I don't think his reaction was so sever as to get ourselves too worked up over.
That said, I hope his team talks to him about it and encourages him to not do his venting in public, if just to protect their public image. I mean, of course he's going to be upset at losing the ace match in the finals of a league, especially if he feels hard done by at the servers etc. he had to play with. But it would be better if he had somewhere to vent in private is all.
Props to NASL for handling the whole situation in a reasonable way (from the explanations they gave), but I can understand why Thorzain was a little frustrated, with how stressful a situation it was already and then having all this rearrangement going on.
On March 19 2012 14:37 [Erasmus] wrote: He was manner to Hero still, with the gg wp. He was (perhaps understandably) upset at the situation, and losing the series for his team. It's a lot of pressure to be under and I don't think his reaction was so sever as to get ourselves too worked up over.
That said, I hope his team talks to him about it and encourages him to not do his venting in public, if just to protect their public image. I mean, of course he's going to be upset at losing the ace match in the finals of a league, especially if he feels hard done by at the servers etc. he had to play with. But it would be better if he had somewhere to vent in private is all.
Props to NASL for handling the whole situation in a reasonable way (from the explanations they gave), but I can understand why Thorzain was a little frustrated, with how stressful a situation it was already and then having all this rearrangement going on.
I guess Thorzain was a little out of line but honestly I feel inclined to cut him some slack since he is generally so mellow. It feels like it would be totally unfair to not take that into consideration and I could see how he might have lost himself a bit in the moment.
Also, Incontroll really brought the set up a notch for me in terms of being able to point out all the crazy-cool stuff Hero was doing.
This is really odd of thorzain, normally a very nice and very well mannered guy, must have been very very frustrated, and the pressure of it being the ace match for the finals of NASTL probably did not help his temper any. Seems like just an unavoidable shitty situation on either side, hope this wont happen again
The statement from NASL resolves everything neatly.
I'm not upset with ThorZaiN for his outburst, but still am of the opinion that it was directed at the wrong people. Liquid was very fair in dealing with Mouz to play out the ace match. If anything, ThorZaiN should be disappointed with his management for selecting him to play the ace match.
All drama aside, congratulations to TeamLiquid! This 2012 will be the year of Liquid again!
This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Hmm, what do you mean? Liquid in relation to what/who? Liquid has some pretty sick "LAN"-wins under their belt, Im fairly sure they have the most titles overall, for any foreign team (Maybe tied with EG, I dont think so, though)
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
and that is why online doesnt show as much skill as offline. nerves is part of the game. if you choke you aint good enough.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness as if people are trying to crucify Thorzain.
It's very simple: he disrespected his opponent after the game ended, most people will forgive him. He should apologize to Hero and TL in some way - whether he actually does this or not is up to him.
[my bolding]
Really? Nothing excuses that behavior? Nothing? In my world legitimate excuses obviously does excuse that behavior. In what world doesn't it?
If I hit my thumb with a hammer I will curse. I may say sorry to people around who were there to hear it but I still have a very legitimate excuse.
Sometimes "least said soonest mended" holds. That applies here, so I will end here.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
On March 19 2012 13:45 NASL.tv wrote: Hello! Due to the potential drama that this Grand Finals match may stir up in the community. I feel it is necessary to make a statement regarding the match so that there will be no misunderstanding of the situation. First, I will outline some basic information about the NASTL playoff week. This will hopefully help explain the decision to play the ace match Wednesday morning and that, given the unfortunate circumstances for both teams, was the fairest possible solution.
This problem could have been resolved if both teams had chosen a different player for the ace match - however, neither team was willing to accommodate the other. Therefore, since both were set on using HerO and ThorZaiN, we were left with setting a time that was not ideal for either party.
General Background Information
We flew in iNcontroL for the week to cast the finals
The studio closed down Wednesday afternoon to install and set up new equipment to get ready for season 3
Therefore, we had a hard deadline of wednesday morning, which teams were notified well in advance
NASTL rules have server changes in order to promote fairness, games are played on all servers: NA, EU, and KR
Info About the match
Liquid selected HerO as their ace knowing it would be late for him in korea
Mouz selected ThorZaiN as their ace despite the fact that he had other obligations (showmatch vs sheth at the time)
Because of this, Mouz was unable to play the ace when the score was tied 2-2 (Thorzain was playing other games)
Due to delays it was unable to be played on tuesday: Liquid rightly asked to push it back since it was pushing 4am in Korea and the match had yet started. Wednesday morning was the last time available to play
A four hour time window was given, Mouz selected 11am EST to play
I contacted the Redbull LAN staff and they cleared time and space for him to play this match
NASTL rules would have given Liquid server advantage in the ace, but to be more fair, both teams agreed to do server swap in between each game, and the starting server was chosen by coin flip (which Liquid won)
We understand the situation was far from ideal for both parties (thorzain had to play from the red bull tournament, hero had to play at 3am) - but this was literally the last time available to play the match
We believe that this was the best and most fair solution (playing wednesday morning, server changing, coin flip to decide start map) given the circumstances
We never want to see the ace match of a final played in an un-ideal situation for either player, but we were unfortunately working within very defined time slots in order to play. Thank you all for understanding, and apologies to both Mouz and Liquid for the ordeal.
- Xeris
So in other words this entire setup was actually more to accomodate Mouz than Liquid, due to Thorzain playing other matches when he was suppose to be available for the ace match.
The server was coin-flip for the first match and then alternated each game. NASTL was more than fair, and Liquid had NOTHING to do with it. Thorzain was just being very bad manner . . . he really should apologize.
For what, for venting ? You people really love drama and want apologies for everything. If that was very BM I am a pope.
Yes, for venting. Professionals don't need to vent. Just say: "gg" and leave. By being a bitch at the end of a game you disrespect your opponent and make them (and their fans) focus on your whining rather than a well-deserved victory.
Well maybe the fans should apologize instead for focusing on the venting instead on the well-deserved victory. You demanding apologies for venting is having entitlement complex the size of elephant.
No one demanded anything. I think you may need to carefully evaluate the meaning of the word: "should".
In addition, I personally feel for Thorzain's position. With the entire team riding on his games, which he lost decisively, he no doubt was crushed emotionally.
However, nothing excuses bad or unprofessional behavior, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out here on the forum. I'm amazed that even two people on here are rushing to the defense of rudeness as if people are trying to crucify Thorzain.
It's very simple: he disrespected his opponent after the game ended, most people will forgive him. He should apologize to Hero and TL in some way - whether he actually does this or not is up to him.
[my bolding]
Really? Nothing excuses that behavior? Nothing? In my world legitimate excuses obviously does excuse that behavior. In what world doesn't it?
If I hit my thumb with a hammer I will curse. I may say sorry to people around who were there to hear it but I still have a very legitimate excuse.
Sometimes "least said soonest mended" holds. That applies here, so I will end here.
An argument against that is that you lack the self control to not curse when you hit your thumb. (playing devil's advocate).
Likewise people would say that these slips (for anyone, not just Thorzain) illustrate one's "true character"
I don't know Thorzain, I don't really follow him much. If this is really his only slipup, then I don't necessarily agree with that above statement. Unlike our crappy politicians that do it all the time, a few slips, to me, is meaningless.
It's hard to judge someone without meeting them in person. In the end.. just move on.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
and that is why online doesnt show as much skill as offline. nerves is part of the game. if you choke you aint good enough.
Nerves have nothing to do with skill. Would you rather watch people play to the absolute best of their ability, or think "hey I wonder how nervous he is today"?
If you actually look at thorzains statement he did not BM Hero, Liquid, or NASL at all. For sure he was frustrated. TL basically got a free win to the championship because he got shafted by server chioce. Sure it was in the rules but its still something to get upset about. If anyone loses respect for thorzain they are truly an idiot. If you put yourself in his shoes playing the game with tons of pressure on you, only to not even be able to control your army because it is lagging to badly. Would you not be pissed too?
Online tourneys mean nothing anyways. It's the Lans that count imo. To people saying that online has the most skill showing that is true. But lets compare say soccer(football) with this scenario. You can do your best moves in your backyard game with no outsiders there watching you and no fans there ready to ridicule your every error. But get in the arena (Lans) and watch how not only the physical skill is tested but the mental side is also pushed. People cheering when you are on the big stage and the silence and sometimes booing of an error on screen where everyone is watching you. And the players know if they mess up that they wont hear the end of it .
As for Thorzain he is a total nerd baller and I look forward to seeing him in tournaments and cheering him on. Would love to see a Hero Thorzain rematch soon somewhere without the server bullcrap.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
If you want to be considered a top player, you HAVE to perform at LANs. Being able to play well under pressure IS a skill itself. It would be saying that the best NBA player is actually a bench warmer on some team. Just that he cannot perform in game. Does that mean we won't get to see the full potential of players in NBA games and we should just go watch practice if we want to see the 'best' plays?
Congrats to TL! Well deserved. Got to admit i was rooting a little bit more for mouz, but they did an awsome run through this hole tournament and brought the final to the ace match.
playing from US -> KOREA for the first time (or one of the first times) must've been so laggy for ThorZaIN... also failing to get the championship for his team and going down like that is super frustrating..
Grats Liquid, although the situation takes some of the gloss of this victory but things like this always happen when players are in different regions. NASL should have the team finals at the same time as the individual finals at the LAN event.
Or maybe players should know when they are playing in important matches and prepare accordingly. Whether that means the tournament gives more accurate information or team management do their jobs properly who knows.
On March 19 2012 18:16 Full.tilt wrote:Or maybe players should know when they are playing in important matches and prepare accordingly. Whether that means the tournament gives more accurate information or team management do their jobs properly who knows.
If you would read the statement from Xeris, then you would know.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
and that is why online doesnt show as much skill as offline. nerves is part of the game. if you choke you aint good enough.
Nerves have nothing to do with skill. Would you rather watch people play to the absolute best of their ability, or think "hey I wonder how nervous he is today"?
The latter. And considering the viewership of LANs is always several times greater than that of online leagues I'd say most people agree with me.
gz for NASTL for this tournament and the quick response. There is no way how an international teamleague could be "perfect" for everyone. I mean on how many timezones are liquid players 5? 10? it have to be so tough to shedule all of these teams.
And the sentence of ThorZain wasnt really bm, other guys just use *#+& words on bigger events and get away with "jea thats just idra". Please stop making everything a big deal.
On March 19 2012 18:16 Full.tilt wrote:Or maybe players should know when they are playing in important matches and prepare accordingly. Whether that means the tournament gives more accurate information or team management do their jobs properly who knows.
If you would read the statement from Xeris, then you would know.
xeris has said a lot of things about NASL in the past, not all of them accurate.
On March 19 2012 15:58 Ventor wrote: This is why I hate online tournaments. They never tell who the better team is. Liquid has some decent players but I feel they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if it was at a lan.
Online tournaments show the full potential of players because they don't have as much nerve issues. You will always see better play online than LAN for most players.
and that is why online doesnt show as much skill as offline. nerves is part of the game. if you choke you aint good enough.
Nerves have nothing to do with skill. Would you rather watch people play to the absolute best of their ability, or think "hey I wonder how nervous he is today"?
The latter. And considering the viewership of LANs is always several times greater than that of online leagues I'd say most people agree with me.
And most people just blindly follow the established conventions that may or may not be correct. Besides, LAN events usually gather more viewers due to the nature of the event itself, being able to see the crowd, players, etc. which has nothing to do with player's performance.
The whole LAN > online thing originates in Brood War, where there was a difference between LAN and online play. There were actually things you could do at LAN latency that were extremely difficult or downright impossible to do when playing with online latency, which made the game fundamentally different between these two environments and limited player skill when playing online. This issue and the issue of cheating is what gave LAN events greater credibility, it's never been about putting players in an uncomfortable environment and having them deal with nerves, jetlag, annoying fans, etc.
In SC2, there is no LAN latency - whether you play sitting next to each other or on the other side of the continent, all the data still bounces off of regional battle.net servers with all the accompanying technical faults, and on top of it there's a built-in latency of ~100 ms if I remember correctly. The fundamental difference in how the game plays does not exist any more, at least nowhere near the same extent, and high profile sponsorship and/or team contracts make cheating extremely risky and extremely unlikely at the highest level.
If you choose to take results made over a single weekend, under conditions like jetlag and traveling fatigue, food poisonings, uncomfortable environment, and a million different factors that can not be predicted or controlled either by players or their managers over results made in online leagues, that's a choice you and everyone else can make. But the bottom line is, your arguments are nowhere near as strong as they were in Brood War where playing online versus playing in LAN meant playing a different game with different rules.
Either way, online events are probably the future of SC2. Running live events is getting costly and inefficient, the game is played over the internet anyway, the entire viewer base is basically on the internet to begin with, people have better connections, there are better streaming services, online tournaments are infinitely cheaper and just make more sense altogether. Even now it's fairly obvious that we will never have a live foreign team league, so I'd get used to acknowledging the importance of online results and display of skill.
On March 20 2012 01:02 sVnteen wrote: ah liquids mercenaries going winning it for them once again....
wp by mouz still hope they can defend their mcsl title for the 3rd time
Yeah, taking Zenio in when he was on the verge of being kicked from oGs after they changed their team house policy, and HerO when he was nearly unknown and to help develop himself, some nice mercenaries you have there :D
I feel like Hasu would have had that game vs sheth if his macro was better. He didn't really take full advantage of his 3rd base until after he lost his 3 colossus. (he probably could have taken his 4th sooner) It still crazy to see Hasu to play so efficiently and still lose. Sheths macro is really strong.
On March 20 2012 03:29 tuho12345 wrote: Wow, that was like one of the best TvZ ever on Day Break lol. Can't believe TZain is this good, going mech like a boss against code S player.
you should watch his game against a code A zerg in Iron squid, he got mech'ed like a boss.
On March 20 2012 05:07 onedayclose wrote: Sounds like NASL no longer wishes to take a stand with their tournaments and let the players/teams decide how its going to be run.
On March 20 2012 01:02 sVnteen wrote: ah liquids mercenaries going winning it for them once again....
wp by mouz still hope they can defend their mcsl title for the 3rd time
It's funny because mouz didn't pickup Thorzain until he won TSL3.
So please stop posting when you don't even know what you're talking about.
Err I'm pretty sure you're wrong here too. So maybe you should stop posting?
vs
Notice clantag? Mouz was in negotiations with Thorzain before he faced Nani and won TSL3. And he won TSL3 under the mouz tag. So "It's funny because mouz didn't pickup Thorzain until he won TSL3" is clearly wrong...
The team picked him up in the middle of the tourney because of his successes, but not because he won the whole thing...
On March 20 2012 05:07 onedayclose wrote: Sounds like NASL no longer wishes to take a stand with their tournaments and let the players/teams decide how its going to be run.
What were they supposed to do, let the finals of a competition that lasted several months be decided by a W/O for HerO in the ace match?
Every online team league is accommodating team and player schedules, at least until a certain deadline which NASL set as well. There is no other way to run it, at least not if you don't want to see 30% games being walkover wins.
I can understand thorzain's frustration, I'll still be a fan though. Congrats Liquid beating irrefutably one of the best foreign team leagues is a large feat.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
I....what. Did you read NASL's statement? It was a coin flip for the servers...
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
Hahaha conspiracy theories are great >.< Go read NASL's statement. Also, don't the teams pick the players in a random order without knowing who the other team is sending out? Luck of the draw. It was like NASTL was saying... Let's give Thorzain and Mana zergs because they suck against them. It turns out that Liquid is actually a team of about 234234 zergs, 2 toss, and a terran
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
lol...you are either trolling or you lost your frontal lobe in some tragic accident
Well, looks like the beginning of a rivalry between the two teams...and oh, look at that, they play each other again in the EG MCSL on the 20th. Rematch time!
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
lol...you are either trolling or you lost your frontal lobe in some tragic accident
I don't think he realizes that NASL gives them the maps and they choose the players to play on them
Grats liquid on the team league final win! Drama = zero care from me, everything was set up as fair as it could be. Mouz knew the times and places and chose to send their ace to redbull lan. Although I do think its a bit funny people are just now realizing tzain can get upset just like everyone else. Doesn't make him some BM monster, I completely understand his frustration if not his outburst in showing it.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
Yeah I agree with others this has to be the most ignorant post on this yet. Each match was alternated on different servers, with the first match beng decided by coin-flip. Additionally, NASL accomodated Thorzain when he wasn't available at the scheduled time for the ACE match and rescheduled.
Then again, I've come to realize that when someone hates Team Liquid (no idea why anyone would have a reason to hate TL), logic and rationality doesn't doesn't seem to ever enter the equation anyhow.
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
lol...you are either trolling or you lost your frontal lobe in some tragic accident
On March 19 2012 05:45 Zealot Orgy wrote: 3 mouz players in their weakest matchups?
3 out of 4?
This has nothing go to with the fact that they're against Team Liquid right?
As I said, everything went "as expected".
All matchups favoring TL with Mouz players in their weakest matchups, a scam of an ace match played on the Korean server without any concern for Thorzain (while Hero, the TL player, already KNEW IT).
Terrible ending of a decent tournament, but yet again, it's probably asking too much for Mouz to compete face to face with Team Liquid's 'implications' in the foreign SC2 scene.
lol...you are either trolling or you lost your frontal lobe in some tragic accident
Probably best not to respond to a guy who named himself "Zealot Orgy". *shudders
I didn't read all the comments, so maybe someone said this already, but from the description it looks to me like Thorzain's anger was misplaced...it was more his own team that hung him out to dry than TL (or NASL). They knew he was not going to be at his best. The fact that TL agreed to a server swap between matches although they didn't have to shows they were being more than fair.
btw really liked InControl and Gretorp casting together again
On March 20 2012 18:22 Devolved wrote: Sorry if this has been brought up, but I'm trying to avoid spoilers so I haven't read the thread. Does anyone have a link to VODs?
It doesn't look like the VODs are on youtube yet but you can catch them there: http://www.twitch.tv/nasltv Click on the "videos" tab.
There's no VOD encompassing the whole clan war, however. Most of them stop at some (seemingly random) point before the end of the clan war, and only one of them has the end of the cw in its entirety. I can't remember which, however, you'll just have to try them out for yourself or wait for the youtube VODs
edit: it looks like the youtube channel is receiving the vods as I speak: http://www.youtube.com/NAStarLeague (they have "semifinals" in their title but I'm pretty sure it's actually the finals)
EPT
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MorroW 0-2 
ThorZaIN 2-0 
MaNa 2-1 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B80kr.png)
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