On February 29 2012 20:58 Labbetuss wrote: For a moment, I was hoping for a perfect game from HerO, like no unit loss
He's not MC.....
Don't you mean Flash, you know the guy that never loses?
...wait a minute...
thanks for spoilering outside of the designated thread
Don't visit LR threads during games...
Wrong thread... this is SC2,
Same rules apply
Spoiler Policy: We're removing our spoiler policy for StarCraft 2 news. That means news threads and forum threads can now have spoilers in the title and spoilers in the comments, though posters will still have to stay on topic (i.e. don't post about GSL in an NASL thread). Brood War news and forums will remain on the old spoiler policy.
On February 29 2012 21:16 Waxangel wrote: well, this series wasn't really indicative of Ganzi's true TvP skill (which is still just average imo), it's just build order losses that could have happened to anyone.
I don't understand why people keep saying Ganzi is horrible, both games were absolutely BO losses.
Losing to 3 stalkers is not a bo loss it's just horrible play. If Ganzi had made a bunker at a decent time in game 1, the game goes on.
Losing to 4gate when you double expand is also awful. No reason not to make 2-3 bunkers if you don't scout an expansion. If you don't scout and just flip a coin, yeah i guess you could call that a bo loss, but he could still have avoided it.
If anything, these games show nothing of Ganzi's tvp because he lost for incredibly stupid mistakes that players make once in hundreds of games.
you dont make 3 bunkers in your main when going fake gas=>hidden expo=>tripple expand build. that just contradicts what the build is supposed to be in the first place. you are just another one that doesnt understand the depth of the matchup and simply says "hes bad he needed more bunkers" because you see protoss units killing terrans defenses on the screen
On February 29 2012 21:16 Waxangel wrote: well, this series wasn't really indicative of Ganzi's true TvP skill (which is still just average imo), it's just build order losses that could have happened to anyone.
I don't understand why people keep saying Ganzi is horrible, both games were absolutely BO losses.
Losing to 3 stalkers is not a bo loss it's just horrible play. If Ganzi had made a bunker at a decent time in game 1, the game goes on.
Losing to 4gate when you double expand is also awful. No reason not to make 2-3 bunkers if you don't scout an expansion. If you don't scout and just flip a coin, yeah i guess you could call that a bo loss, but he could still have avoided it.
If anything, these games show nothing of Ganzi's tvp because he lost for incredibly stupid mistakes that players make once in hundreds of games.
you dont make 3 bunkers in your main when going fake gas=>hidden expo=>tripple expand build. that just contradicts what the build is supposed to be in the first place. you are just another one that doesnt understand the depth of the matchup and simply says "hes bad he needed more bunkers" because you see protoss units killing terrans defenses on the screen
Fair enough, you are waaay better than i will ever be and i trust your judgement. Still, you should at least make a single bunker no?
On February 29 2012 21:16 Waxangel wrote: well, this series wasn't really indicative of Ganzi's true TvP skill (which is still just average imo), it's just build order losses that could have happened to anyone.
I don't understand why people keep saying Ganzi is horrible, both games were absolutely BO losses.
Losing to 3 stalkers is not a bo loss it's just horrible play. If Ganzi had made a bunker at a decent time in game 1, the game goes on.
Losing to 4gate when you double expand is also awful. No reason not to make 2-3 bunkers if you don't scout an expansion. If you don't scout and just flip a coin, yeah i guess you could call that a bo loss, but he could still have avoided it.
If anything, these games show nothing of Ganzi's tvp because he lost for incredibly stupid mistakes that players make once in hundreds of games.
The BO he was following didn't allow for a bunker at that timing that hero exploited. His only production facilities were at that time a reactor rax and a naked factory. If he made that bunker, his banshee timing will be delayed but like 10 seconds. Every terran BO in the early game has direct toss counters, much like ZvZ, just much more subtle.
The second game where he coinflipped double expand, he couldve made 3 bunkers and had 1 barracks. Great. He would lose anyways. Theres actually no amount of bunkers in the universe that can save a double expand from a 4gate.
You have to watch whats happening with the rest of the game to judge a specific action, your analysis of what happened is too rudimentary. If you actually execute the builds he did yourself, you would realize that there are just these timing holes that Hero seems to hit. Every terran build has a timing hole either in terms of losing to an unavoidable toss eco-cheese or losing to an allin. If I suddenly had infinite resources at these random timings, too, then I would never lose to anything.
On February 29 2012 21:26 MorroW wrote: you dont make 3 bunkers in your main when going fake gas=>hidden expo=>tripple expand build. that just contradicts what the build is supposed to be in the first place. you are just another one that doesnt understand the depth of the matchup and simply says "hes bad he needed more bunkers" because you see protoss units killing terrans defenses on the screen
Just wanted to end my lurking to say that I really appreciate your input, MorroW! It really puts things into perspective and actually explain a lot. Thanks!
On February 29 2012 21:16 Waxangel wrote: well, this series wasn't really indicative of Ganzi's true TvP skill (which is still just average imo), it's just build order losses that could have happened to anyone.
I don't understand why people keep saying Ganzi is horrible, both games were absolutely BO losses.
Losing to 3 stalkers is not a bo loss it's just horrible play. If Ganzi had made a bunker at a decent time in game 1, the game goes on.
Losing to 4gate when you double expand is also awful. No reason not to make 2-3 bunkers if you don't scout an expansion. If you don't scout and just flip a coin, yeah i guess you could call that a bo loss, but he could still have avoided it.
If anything, these games show nothing of Ganzi's tvp because he lost for incredibly stupid mistakes that players make once in hundreds of games.
you dont make 3 bunkers in your main when going fake gas=>hidden expo=>tripple expand build. that just contradicts what the build is supposed to be in the first place. you are just another one that doesnt understand the depth of the matchup and simply says "hes bad he needed more bunkers" because you see protoss units killing terrans defenses on the screen
Yeah I think people need to quit downplaying this victory. Ganzi is a great player, and to say he was terrible is seriously insulting to Hero's accomplishment and Ganzi overall.
Hero, if you're reading through this, you're the fucking man. Code S~!
On February 29 2012 21:16 Waxangel wrote: well, this series wasn't really indicative of Ganzi's true TvP skill (which is still just average imo), it's just build order losses that could have happened to anyone.
I don't understand why people keep saying Ganzi is horrible, both games were absolutely BO losses.
Losing to 3 stalkers is not a bo loss it's just horrible play. If Ganzi had made a bunker at a decent time in game 1, the game goes on.
Losing to 4gate when you double expand is also awful. No reason not to make 2-3 bunkers if you don't scout an expansion. If you don't scout and just flip a coin, yeah i guess you could call that a bo loss, but he could still have avoided it.
If anything, these games show nothing of Ganzi's tvp because he lost for incredibly stupid mistakes that players make once in hundreds of games.
you dont make 3 bunkers in your main when going fake gas=>hidden expo=>tripple expand build. that just contradicts what the build is supposed to be in the first place. you are just another one that doesnt understand the depth of the matchup and simply says "hes bad he needed more bunkers" because you see protoss units killing terrans defenses on the screen
Fair enough, you are waaay better than i will ever be and i trust your judgement. Still, you should at least make a single bunker no?
Same goes for game 1, that bunker is mandatory.
lol no you dont build a bunker xD
its like if your gonna coinflip, then coinflip and accept its a coinflip. the same way hero 4gates and stop building probes, you go a build like ganzi and you dont build a bunker. if you go 4gate and keep building probes your like "well, i kinda wanna have something to fall back to if this doesnt work, so im not absolutely 100% screwed if this fails". while in reality, keep building probes while your 4gating is just gonna make the 4gate weaker so it will just make the 4gate weaker, its gonna make lower the overall chance to end up succeeding
so if you do this build as terran, build a bunker. then your still pretty fucking screwed vs 4gate, you shouldnt still defend it. plus this bunker slows everything down if he didnt 4gate, get it?
its extremely risky thinking and i know it kinda doesnt make sense for everyone to choose to play like this when your down 1 game. but you cant say he played badly or did a mistake when he gets punished for it, cause really, who the hell goes 4gate vs terran these days? especially when he opens with gas and supply depot walling AND its crosspos.
thats why im the kind of player who doesnt really coinflip alot, and i dont really respect or say "what a brilliant mindgame" when a 4gate works. because at the end of the day its a high risk high reward situation and people generally say someone is stupid when it fails and brilliant when it works, which is what im trying to get at here. its pretty stupid.
hero and ganzi are both amazing players. anti-fans of hero thinking he got a easy 2-0 into code S shouldnt just go say ganzi is terrible after this series, just like hero fans should go here saying hes the most amazing mindgamer or brilliant player in the world outplaying ganzi massivly and ganzi is afraid of macro game. just lay back and laff like i do, its they who are choosing to coinflip nobody is forcing them to, and this shit happens sometimes and its pretty silly imo. i say good for you hero, but everyone who knows this game knows he got lucky and ganzi got not so lucky^^
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xBm4H.jpg)
