On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
Yeah, it's definitely difficult to judge. The main reason being that they don't compete vs. the same player pool. Is 60% win-rate vs. top Korean Protoss better than 100% win-rate vs. foreign Toss? It's really impossible to say and the only way to say for sure would be if Stephano moved to Korea, which I don't see happening.
On February 25 2012 19:49 Devolved wrote: Elfi scared :x Any sane Protoss would be.
Any sane non-korean toss
Keep hating with the awesome mindset.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
MaNa isn't much better than NightEnD and BlinG, really. He isn't as good as ~4 months ago.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
DRG, just because DRG is the best ZvAnything right now.
On February 25 2012 19:49 Devolved wrote: Elfi scared :x Any sane Protoss would be.
Any sane non-korean toss
Keep hating with the awesome mindset.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
And MaNa is very weak against zerg, as is Grubby. Don't think Grubby has ever beat stephano and they've played many times.
He has a very good, Korean standard ZvP though. Watching his stream from Korea, he constantly crushed protoss in Code S/A, obviously that's not a tournament setting, but he still plays the matchup very well.
Especially the control over his units really sets him apart in my opinion, even most Korean zergs don't really impress me with their control, but he does.
On February 25 2012 19:49 Devolved wrote: Elfi scared :x Any sane Protoss would be.
Any sane non-korean toss
Keep hating with the awesome mindset.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
Nighend is a DH-semifinalist, Grubby, monchi are very good as well. I would not rate them as very top foreigners, but they are good players as well and I think the point is not, that he beat them, but that he didn´t lose a single map to all of them.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
MaNa isn't much better than NightEnD and BlinG, really. He isn't as good as ~4 months ago.
Oh ok, I didn't know mana had fallen off lately. Well that makes the list even less impressive now that you told me that.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
I'm sorry but just because you don't agree that a foreigner, untested in the GSL is the best Zv anything worldwide does not make you a hater of said player.
Said the guy with "Liquid`Hero #1" in his signature.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
I'm sorry but just because you don't agree that a foreigner, untested in the GSL is the best Zv anything worldwide does not make you a hater of said player.
Oh and the answer to your question is DRG.
I agree with this. First of all, it's annoying as hell for fanboys of player X to call people "haters" just because they don't irrationally think player X is the best fucking thing since sliced bread.
Secondly, Stephano is largely untested in ZvP against the best Protosses in the world. We did see him lose multiple times to MC (not to mention the relatively unknown SlayerSCrank in the IPL Team League), and that's really it. Until Stephano proves himself in ZvP against strong Korean Protosses, it's completely and utterly ridiculous to say his ZvP is the best in the world.
On February 25 2012 19:54 Zealot Orgy wrote: [quote]
Keep hating with the awesome mindset.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
MaNa isn't much better than NightEnD and BlinG, really. He isn't as good as ~4 months ago.
Oh ok, I didn't know mana had fallen off lately. Well that makes the list even less impressive now that you told me that.
It's more that NightEnD and BlinG have risen significantly.
On February 25 2012 19:49 Devolved wrote: Elfi scared :x Any sane Protoss would be.
Any sane non-korean toss
Keep hating with the awesome mindset.
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
Nighend is a DH-semifinalist, Grubby, monchi and Bling are very good as well. I would not rate them as very top foreigners, but they are good players as well and I think the point is not, that he beat them, but that he didn´t lose a single map to all of them.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
The biggest problem with stephano is that he has not slanting eyes. This is what I understand by reading this LR.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
I'm sorry but just because you don't agree that a foreigner, untested in the GSL is the best Zv anything worldwide does not make you a hater of said player.
Said the guy with "Liquid`Hero #1" in his signature.
Your sig has a symbol saying "Liquipedia contribution" when you mouse-over.
Does that mean that you don't contribute to anything other than Liquipedia? Or that you hate everything apart from Liquipedia? Of course not. Don't be silly.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
I'm sorry but just because you don't agree that a foreigner, untested in the GSL is the best Zv anything worldwide does not make you a hater of said player.
Said the guy with "Liquid`Hero #1" in his signature.
And what has that to do with it. He is a LiquidHerO Fan ...
He has a 29 winstreak against non-korean opponents?
OH WELL IT MUST MEAN THAT THE KOREANS ARE GOING TO BEAT HIM.
Pretty much. I looked at his zvp on tlpd and on the first page the only players of note on it are MC and Naniwa and he's 0-4 against them.
Here's the deal.
Imagine looking at two different TLPDs. They have played against the same opponents in the same order and at the same times. Both went 0-4 against MC and Naniwa. After that, one of them (let's call him A) went on a very long uninterrupted winning streak, and one of them kept playing scrappy.
Who would you rather pick to win a match versus, say, MC?
You're disregarding evidence, and that's a sin.
Of course it doesn't mean that player A will easily stand up to MC or Naniwa, but his winning streak is evidence toward that he ought to do better than previously.
You're saying that the winning streak is evidence that Korans will beat him, which is false.
Logic, guys.
No, I'm basically saying I don't find the streak impressive, given the level of competition he faced. I don't look strictly at wins. Quality of opponent has to factor in a lot, cause to ignore it is kind of silly.
And still you can't even find one comparable streak by anyone? He is fucking 30-0 vs P.
Why do I need to find a comparable streak? I already said he's a top foreigner and probably best foreign z. That doesn't change the fact, that I don't find the competition he faced to be that good. If he put up a 30-0 vs korean toss, then I would be impressed.
OK, that is fair enough I guess, but I still think it is a little bit weird of you to call his streak vs P "not impressive" when you can't mention a comparable streak by any player in any match up.
Edit; alright, "impressive on a foreigner level". Lets say that lol.
Ok honestly look at this list and tell me where you think these players rank.
Mana Nightend Grubby Bling Seiplo Headhunter Titan Rotterdam Monchi
Out of this list, I would only consider Mana as a top foreigner.
Nighend is a DH-semifinalist, Grubby, monchi are very good as well. I would not rate them as very top foreigners, but they are good players as well and I think the point is not, that he beat them, but that he didn´t lose a single map to all of them.
Nightend is just a decent protoss player.Grubby is also only decent.Who is monchi? Stephano is expected to stomped those lists of player.
On February 25 2012 20:25 Otolia wrote: I am wondering which player Stephano-haters consider to be the best ZvPer if not Stephano. Leenock ? DRG ? Lucky ? Curious ? Nestea ?
I don't think so, up until last season, Korean protoss were struggling so it's difficult to judge anyway.
I'm sorry but just because you don't agree that a foreigner, untested in the GSL is the best Zv anything worldwide does not make you a hater of said player.
Said the guy with "Liquid`Hero #1" in his signature.
Calling out someone else's fanboyism rather than trying to rationally present your argument isn't a good way to make your point look very valid. It just makes you look petty.
EPT
