Live Report Thread was not up by the time the games started. First few games were live reported in the original AOL thread, starting from this post, and ending with this post.
I wish those double expands were scoutable, so the zerg doesn't have to do the blind roach timings which can punish the double expo,but do zero damage to everything else.
On November 05 2011 16:06 Looms wrote: LR summary from Games 1-3? Anyone?
I tuned in late..
Game 1, Ganzi goes cc first into hellions into 3rd orbital (but it's not the usual in base 3rd, in fact it wasn't an orbital but a PF because he got attacked a lot). DRG open roachlings, does a lot of damage before having to back, then takes a 3rd, 4th, 5th behind this. Ganzi takes a 4th (this wasn't a very long game, I'd say 25 minutes ? But they both expoed a lot more than usual), and as soon as DRG is maxed on double lings with some mutas, he throws wave after wave, Ganzi defend but just GG.
Game 2 a good long TvP (refreshing !), back and forth game.
Game 3 Killer tries a 7 gate +2 blink timing, miss his timing, and die to infestors.
Ganzi is going ghost tech first instead of starport tech to blind counter 2 base gateway all in but Killer is actually going for collosus, should be interesting.
Is it just me and my lack of terran knowledge, or this one of the worst things ganzi could be doing. Everything from build choice to execution to upgrade timing....
Killer needs to spread out his pylons around his expos. Every game his opponents have been able to shut down warp ins by killing one or two clumped plylons.
On November 05 2011 16:50 snafoo wrote: haha, wow, that battle happened in like, the 10 seconds where ganzi had 2-2 and killer was still on 1-1
Are you sure? I thought 2/2 was finished for killer. The emps were good and both of his ghost were full energy so he was able invest most of his gas into vikings. Watching battles like that really makes me want HotS to come out, I think it will make the game more entertaining to watch, maybe more skill based.
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
y does he not get 1 thor, i know it cuts into tank numbers but when ur opponent invests heavy air and u dont plan to push anytime soon u dont even need the tanks.
On November 05 2011 17:02 etrensce wrote: y does he not get 1 thor, i know it cuts into tank numbers but when ur opponent invests heavy air and u dont plan to push anytime soon u dont even need the tanks.
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
Yeah I believe 2 hatch muta came before marine range (I'm almost 100% positive but can't remember for sure). I was never a fan of it but I only ever got to low C+ before the sc2 beta and my micro wasn't that amazing with them so I never did it but I believe that is it could be wrong >>
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
Yeah I believe 2 hatch muta came before marine range (I'm almost 100% positive but can't remember for sure). I was never a fan of it but I only ever got to low C+ before the sc2 beta and my micro wasn't that amazing with them so I never did it but I believe that is it could be wrong >>
that isnt what i meant, the timing did exist in bw (ty JD for abusing the shit out of it to entertain me :D)
what i meant was is there even a similar timing in sc2? like pre stim (lol doubt it) or something like that?
DRG is the only player that can make fast mutas work with his multitasking. It's a really gimmicky build, He have trouble keeping up with terran economy even though he caught terran off guard with the early mutas.
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
Yeah I believe 2 hatch muta came before marine range (I'm almost 100% positive but can't remember for sure). I was never a fan of it but I only ever got to low C+ before the sc2 beta and my micro wasn't that amazing with them so I never did it but I believe that is it could be wrong >>
that isnt what i meant, the timing did exist in bw (ty JD for abusing the shit out of it to entertain me :D)
what i meant was is there even a similar timing in sc2? like pre stim (lol doubt it) or something like that?
Oh my bad and Idk probably hurts the marine count having to get turrets sooner and comes before stim I imagine? Not sure
On November 05 2011 17:10 iky43210 wrote: drg has the right idea. you don't want pure ultras cause ghost will snipe you to death, you want banelings to force terran not able to spam snipe
This ! Just 3-5 ultras to tank, and ling blings mutas infestors :D A little of everything :D You prevent the terran for just going "ok, now he's t3 only, spam ghost mode", and you force him to have to be careful about his unit composition.
This game really highlights of what i think zerg's have been doing wrong late game- losing all their mutas. Just having that pack of 16 mutas shuts down all the drops which are what really kills zerg late game, although it is very true that not all zergs can have as good of unit control....
Also- im not quite sure but did it seem like the terran built too many medivacs?
The rush distance on that map in those positions is nuts. DRG had some sick hatchery saves but jesus christ does it take forever to get across that map.
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
Yeah I believe 2 hatch muta came before marine range (I'm almost 100% positive but can't remember for sure). I was never a fan of it but I only ever got to low C+ before the sc2 beta and my micro wasn't that amazing with them so I never did it but I believe that is it could be wrong >>
that isnt what i meant, the timing did exist in bw (ty JD for abusing the shit out of it to entertain me :D)
what i meant was is there even a similar timing in sc2? like pre stim (lol doubt it) or something like that?
Dont hold me on any of this. Stim should finish a good 30 seconds before spire, and its gona take another 30 seconds for the mutas to come out. Zerg have to save gas and larva, so no banlingz, not many lingz.
Even if leenock beats killer and DRG to get 2-2, he will lose the tiebreak to both ganzi and jjakji, so leenock is for all intents and purposes eliminated?
On November 05 2011 17:14 rigelq wrote: This game really highlights of what i think zerg's have been doing wrong late game- losing all their mutas. Just having that pack of 16 mutas shuts down all the drops which are what really kills zerg late game, although it is very true that not all zergs can have as good of unit control....
Also- im not quite sure but did it seem like the terran built too many medivacs?
I agree strongly mutas add a lot of utility, it's frustrating to watch a zerg get picked apart by drops even when they have a spire because "i've made the transition into ultras, no going back now =P"
On November 05 2011 17:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Take notes kids.
Notice how 3-3 Marines do not shred 1-3 armor Mutalisks even remotely as quickly as they do when Zerg players refuse to upgrade their armor.
Is it expensive? yes? Is it effective? Absolutely.
Its less than the cost of 10 mutas. Idra regularly makes 10 mutas too many, so really its not like its even a problem to get.
My thoughts exactly.
For what you invest in upgrading that armor ugprade, you save in Mutas not being absolutely shredded by Upgraded Marines.
You need less mutas than you normally would to accomplish what Mutas do best, drop denial, map control, and tank sniping because each one is much more durable than they would be without armor upgrades.
On November 05 2011 16:59 Oboeman wrote: this was a 5 minute lair, which I've seen him do occasionally, but I think usually he does closer to 7 min lair, which is a lot more standard.
notice that he couldn't afford the macro hatch, baneling nest, and evolution chambers that he usually gets along with his lair.
Yeah personally not a fan of that fast muta's xD
Kind of reminds me of the concept of 2 hatch muta in bw
is there even a timing like the range timing that 2hatch was meant to abuse?
Yeah I believe 2 hatch muta came before marine range (I'm almost 100% positive but can't remember for sure). I was never a fan of it but I only ever got to low C+ before the sc2 beta and my micro wasn't that amazing with them so I never did it but I believe that is it could be wrong >>
that isnt what i meant, the timing did exist in bw (ty JD for abusing the shit out of it to entertain me :D)
what i meant was is there even a similar timing in sc2? like pre stim (lol doubt it) or something like that?
Dont hold me on any of this. Stim should finish a good 30 seconds before spire, and its gona take another 30 seconds for the mutas to come out. Zerg have to save gas and larva, so no banlingz, not many lingz.
A lot of terrans delay stim by performing all their add-on gymnastics, where they get shields then give the tech lab to a factory for siege mode, and go back to reactored marines, so it is possible that he hits a pre-stim timing against some builds.
but I think more likely it is intended to take advantage of terran cutting corners and not having turrets early enough (or not scanning for spire early enough), but it is incredibly risky. if jjakji attacked with his 15 marines instead of just faking, he could have done a ton of damage.
On November 05 2011 17:22 firehand101 wrote: i love how khaldor pronounces pylon! This caster is absolutely amazing, cant get enough of him!
I don't like how he starts off his pronunciation slow and then speeds up trying to make stuff sound more intense. Just sounds weird because he does it so much.
Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
LOL Gisado with the jokes. Saying that the game balance of SC2 is so good that they have 3 Zergs and 3 Terrans. Where are the Protoss? Is this WarCraft 2 where there's only Human and Orc?
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
Have you watched whitera lately? 4 HT in prism amazing how you can be impervious to EMP
On November 05 2011 18:03 bokchoi wrote: LOL Gisado with the jokes. Saying that the game balance of SC2 is so good that they have 3 Zergs and 3 Terrans. Where are the Protoss? Is this WarCraft 2 where there's only Human and Orc?
On November 05 2011 18:53 StarscreamG1 wrote: I think EMP disables too much of protoss power. At least sentries energy should be a cooldown.
The things is that even if it just took away 100 shields or just took away energy it would still be so good it would be used a lot. But it does both those at the same time and doesn't require any research.
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
Have you watched whitera lately? 4 HT in prism amazing how you can be impervious to EMP
Impervious to EMP and get 2 shot by a small fleet of Vikings. Both ways have their weaknesses.
On November 05 2011 18:03 bokchoi wrote: LOL Gisado with the jokes. Saying that the game balance of SC2 is so good that they have 3 Zergs and 3 Terrans. Where are the Protoss? Is this WarCraft 2 where there's only Human and Orc?
Not like it wasnt like that in WarCraft 3 either ~_~
On November 05 2011 20:40 Scarecrow wrote: Sad how Killer's the best protoss from bw and he still isn't doing well.
If you look at his games, i don't think you can put it to balance. His micro/macro is decent/above average at best and he is largely clueless(at the competitive level) in P v Z. Against jjakji, he loved attacking into chokes, having his zealots run around going apeshit behind his wall of stalkers, have his colossus get sniped easily. And he was still able to win cause he prioritised upgrades and building bases.
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
emp doesn't even come close to negating ht. that's been such an overrated statement here on tl. all you have to do is keep your templars kind of split, and behind your army, as shown in killer vs jjakji. there's no way terran will have time time to emp/snipe every ht, and toss should get at least 4-6 storms off as long as the toss isn't bad and has his deathball clumped up before the engagement. ht in a warp prism is unecessary and a gimmick imo.
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
Have you watched whitera lately? 4 HT in prism amazing how you can be impervious to EMP
Impervious to EMP and get 2 shot by a small fleet of Vikings. Both ways have their weaknesses.
Why on earth would a Terran build Vikings if there are no Colossus?
On November 05 2011 17:29 SolidZeal wrote: Freaking protoss, Hopefully we'll see a protoss advance in group D, gogo Oz. MC was our best hope, and he even beat MVP who looked like he was the biggest threat. I wish more protoss would try more macro/harass instead of 2 base all ins. Protoss endgame comp is really strong.
PvZ this is arguably true but currently PvT at the korean level emp and bio mobility can be a huge deal (although killer did manage to win his first game with a macro game)
Not saying terran doesn't > protoss in the late game but I really don't understand why protoss players aren't getting storm in p v t. It unlocks better ups, you can get charge and blink, and archons are now actually really strong. Not to mention a few well placed storms can win a game straight up. The amulet nerf was harsh but not THAT bad imo.
We already have a balance discussion thread on this, BUT, a terran with good ghost control completely negates high templar with either snipe or emp. Not to mention a stimmed bio army spends close to no time at all in the area of a storm as it does not deal damage fast enough. Archons are only as good as their shields, once again, emp destroys them. The amulet nerf has no bearing on these issues, there is something bigger at work here.
Have you watched whitera lately? 4 HT in prism amazing how you can be impervious to EMP
Impervious to EMP and get 2 shot by a small fleet of Vikings. Both ways have their weaknesses.
Why on earth would a Terran build Vikings if there are no Colossus?
Because they can land and kill warp prisms and if you see a prism 2 or 3 vikings go a really long way to stopping it.
This lack of protoss in tournaments is getting depressing.
The saddest thing is that its not like player seeding is resulting in no protoss its just the way the games play out. And these people are supposed to be their teams respective Ace players. Aces!
On November 06 2011 01:16 BarbieHsu wrote: Yeah DRG!
I don't get the haters. This guy is really, really good. He may not be Nestea level. Maybe not even Losira. But he's got mad game.
Yeah he's as good as losira. Has better zvt than nestea, but nestea has better zvp, zvz. I've never seen DRG lose to bunker rushes, while nestea and losira lose to those a bit.
On November 05 2011 18:03 bokchoi wrote: LOL Gisado with the jokes. Saying that the game balance of SC2 is so good that they have 3 Zergs and 3 Terrans. Where are the Protoss? Is this WarCraft 2 where there's only Human and Orc?
Not like it wasnt like that in WarCraft 3 either ~_~
Oh, come now. UD vs. Orc is a shit match-up, but UD vs. not-Orc is pretty damn good. You can even argue that UD is favored in its other match-ups if you want to, and Luci's still very competitive. Sure, one MU is horrible, but War3's still pretty damn balanced for all that, esp. considering there are four races.
Anyways, War2 was pretty much Orc vs. Orc. Bloodlusted ogres were the shit.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U2C5g.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1979.jpg)
VS ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/160.jpg)
VS ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2627.jpg)
VS ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/106.jpg)
VS ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1971.jpg)
GanZI <Daybreak> 
DongRaeGu
Killer <Tal'Darim Altar LE> 
i love how khaldor pronounces pylon!
