On October 22 2011 23:17 Azarkon wrote: MC failed on positioning there.
Nice win for Mana. He was behind the whole game but that one engagement won it.
he stopped being behind when he killed robo
Not really. MC was ahead before the engagement, but the concave with the colossi, while good in general, sucked when the bulk of the army was a bit behind. And then mc blinked on top of some zealots as well --> annihilation
On October 22 2011 22:56 Jehct wrote: What a crazy tournament. Idra, Nerchio & Thorzain out while Livezerg, Grubby & Cloud in - it's like the European B-teamers strike back O_o
I think its more like Incontrol was right.. European B teamers > NA A teamers!
I don't want to say Grubby and Cloud are B-teamers. Don't know enough of LiveZerg to tell him what he is.
Grubby one of the best WC3 pro's ever. Has been to Korea and plays really good the past couple of weeks.
Cloud had his arm broken, getting back in there, one of the best Terrans in Europe.
Cloud and Grubby are absolutely European B teamers. Throughout SC2 they have never been considered even top3 for their respective races in Europe; no one expects these guys to win a tournament.
Well depends on how you define an A teamer or an B teamer. If you define an "A" player as in top 3 in their region, then yes, ClouD is prolly not A teamer but a high lvl B teamer. However, imo an A teamer is around top 10 or so in their region, the guys you expect to do well (not neccesarily win it), while guys like Thorzain, Nerchio are A+/S team.
But generally I think you shouldnt label players like that, as almost everyone at the top level can beat each other if the conditions are there.
You're saying top 10 of their respective race... that's a 30 player team?
On October 22 2011 23:05 AxionSteel wrote: It depends what you mean by A-Team, Grubby might not be top 3 protoss in EU, but he's still a top european player. Europe has a lot more depth than NA.
A-team would be the top10 in any particular region, no? I mean, how big are your teams O_o
So when you look at Europe, you have Mana, nerchio, stephano, thorzain, naniwa, jinro, sjow, sase, hasuobs, socke, dimaga, morrow, Kas, White Ra, Strelok etc etc, that's far more than 10, and there's many more, I don't think you can say there's only ten A team players in Europe. I'd rather rank by tiers, all of them are top European players, and I'd put Grubby and Cloud as a top tier European player as well. 2nd Tier would probably include LiveZerg, though.
I just wouldn't put Grubby/Cloud on the same level as Whitera/Thorzain at all, and if they are, they haven't shown it in terms of results.
Perhaps ClouD is overall not on the level of ThorZaIN, but TvT wise ClouD is better.
Grubby would be the second tier of protosses at the moment I THINK, behind Nani/Sase/MaNa, but he can beat all of them. Don't really know that for certain, seeing as we haven't seen too much of him since he went to Korea.
Also, results are not everything, and White-Ra doesn't have that great results either.
It depends on how bi your tiers are. If it is only 3 players, and the rest is in a lower tier sure. But if you just look at the level of play and the possibility to grow. I think Grubby is "almost" on the same level
Yeah I agree, he's close to them, and will definitely get there, if he's not already there, but for now I would rate him behind those three guys, but who knows.
I'm a big Grubby fan since the beginning in WC3, so I wouldn't mind him becoming the dominant orc again.
On October 22 2011 22:56 Jehct wrote: What a crazy tournament. Idra, Nerchio & Thorzain out while Livezerg, Grubby & Cloud in - it's like the European B-teamers strike back O_o
I think its more like Incontrol was right.. European B teamers > NA A teamers!
I don't want to say Grubby and Cloud are B-teamers. Don't know enough of LiveZerg to tell him what he is.
Grubby one of the best WC3 pro's ever. Has been to Korea and plays really good the past couple of weeks.
Cloud had his arm broken, getting back in there, one of the best Terrans in Europe.
Cloud and Grubby are absolutely European B teamers. Throughout SC2 they have never been considered even top3 for their respective races in Europe; no one expects these guys to win a tournament.
Only people that are not involved in European Scene dont. Grubby for example won a bo7 against nerchio even before he went to Korea. It's just that he doesn't play that many tournaments and is a bit shaky sometimes but he is definitly one of the better Europeans.
So he's better than Sase/Naniwa/Mana? And Cloud > Strelok/Thorzain/Bratok/Demuslim/Kas/Beasty.... It never ends.
Cloud has always been good. I don't know what you're talking about.
On October 22 2011 22:56 Jehct wrote: What a crazy tournament. Idra, Nerchio & Thorzain out while Livezerg, Grubby & Cloud in - it's like the European B-teamers strike back O_o
I think its more like Incontrol was right.. European B teamers > NA A teamers!
I don't want to say Grubby and Cloud are B-teamers. Don't know enough of LiveZerg to tell him what he is.
Grubby one of the best WC3 pro's ever. Has been to Korea and plays really good the past couple of weeks.
Cloud had his arm broken, getting back in there, one of the best Terrans in Europe.
Cloud and Grubby are absolutely European B teamers. Throughout SC2 they have never been considered even top3 for their respective races in Europe; no one expects these guys to win a tournament.
Only people that are not involved in European Scene dont. Grubby for example won a bo7 against nerchio even before he went to Korea. It's just that he doesn't play that many tournaments and is a bit shaky sometimes but he is definitly one of the better Europeans.
So he's better than Sase/Naniwa/Mana? And Cloud > Strelok/Thorzain/Bratok/Demuslim/Kas/Beasty.... It never ends.
If you think that Demuslim, Strelok , Beasty and Bratok are better than Cloud, you probably don't know anything about the european scene.
To be fair, I do think DeMusliM is on the same level. Strelok can be really good or make some really stupid mistakes. And BratOK and Beasty are a little worse I think. You also have to have in mind that there are 3 matchups, you have to be solid in all 3 of them to be considered "good" in my mind.
On October 22 2011 23:05 AxionSteel wrote: It depends what you mean by A-Team, Grubby might not be top 3 protoss in EU, but he's still a top european player. Europe has a lot more depth than NA.
A-team would be the top10 in any particular region, no? I mean, how big are your teams O_o
So when you look at Europe, you have Mana, nerchio, stephano, thorzain, naniwa, jinro, sjow, sase, hasuobs, socke, dimaga, morrow, Kas, White Ra, Strelok etc etc, that's far more than 10, and there's many more, I don't think you can say there's only ten A team players in Europe. I'd rather rank by tiers, all of them are top European players, and I'd put Grubby and Cloud as a top tier European player as well. 2nd Tier would probably include LiveZerg, though.
I just wouldn't put Grubby/Cloud on the same level as Whitera/Thorzain at all, and if they are, they haven't shown it in terms of results.
Perhaps ClouD is overall not on the level of ThorZaIN, but TvT wise ClouD is better.
Grubby would be the second tier of protosses at the moment I THINK, behind Nani/Sase/MaNa, but he can beat all of them. Don't really know that for certain, seeing as we haven't seen too much of him since he went to Korea.
Also, results are not everything, and White-Ra doesn't have that great results either.
I highly doubt you can say ClouD is better tvt than thorzain based one one series :S ThorZaiN definitely had his chances, i'd back him in a Bo7 any day of the week.
Grubby looks really really strong lately, saw him streaming from Korea, looked good. Obviously can't call him top 3 or 4 protoss in EU, but he's a top EU player now IMO.
ClouD is probably the best TvT in europe atm. If you wanna study the matchup, he's the guy to go to. Not really surprised he won over ThorZain.
On October 22 2011 23:17 Azarkon wrote: MC failed on positioning there.
Nice win for Mana. He was behind the whole game but that one engagement won it.
he stopped being behind when he killed robo
he still was slightly behind in almost every regard.
MaNa won cause of MC's positioning only, but well thats what happens in pvp. And the advantage MC had was about 30 seconds @ upgrades and eco
PvP is still very punishing. 1 lost robo + 1 bad positioning and you lost despite an econ lead. Its the matchup where huge huge upsets can really occur.
On October 22 2011 23:05 AxionSteel wrote: It depends what you mean by A-Team, Grubby might not be top 3 protoss in EU, but he's still a top european player. Europe has a lot more depth than NA.
A-team would be the top10 in any particular region, no? I mean, how big are your teams O_o
So when you look at Europe, you have Mana, nerchio, stephano, thorzain, naniwa, jinro, sjow, sase, hasuobs, socke, dimaga, morrow, Kas, White Ra, Strelok etc etc, that's far more than 10, and there's many more, I don't think you can say there's only ten A team players in Europe. I'd rather rank by tiers, all of them are top European players, and I'd put Grubby and Cloud as a top tier European player as well. 2nd Tier would probably include LiveZerg, though.
I just wouldn't put Grubby/Cloud on the same level as Whitera/Thorzain at all, and if they are, they haven't shown it in terms of results.
Perhaps ClouD is overall not on the level of ThorZaIN, but TvT wise ClouD is better.
Grubby would be the second tier of protosses at the moment I THINK, behind Nani/Sase/MaNa, but he can beat all of them. Don't really know that for certain, seeing as we haven't seen too much of him since he went to Korea.
Also, results are not everything, and White-Ra doesn't have that great results either.
It depends on how bi your tiers are. If it is only 3 players, and the rest is in a lower tier sure. But if you just look at the level of play and the possibility to grow. I think Grubby is "almost" on the same level
Yeah I agree, he's close to them, and will definitely get there, if he's not already there, but for now I would rate him behind those three guys, but who knows.
I'm a big Grubby fan since the beginning in WC3, so I wouldn't mind him becoming the dominant orc again.
EPT
