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Keep enjoying the games. In advance, if you OP whine, see you in a while. If you post well, hopefully see a lot more of you :D <3 |
On October 04 2011 14:28 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:24 usethis2 wrote:On October 04 2011 14:16 beamingrobot wrote:On October 04 2011 14:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Mid level pro WC3 players have some special talent for SC2
Mid-level: Thorzain, Naniwa, Demuslim, Elfi
High-level: SaSe, ToD, Grubby, Moon, Lyn
Kinda strange O_o Well it's not really strange, they're both RTS games (I think WC3 has a stronger emphasis on micro). Plus look at SelecT who was a DoW champ, he's doing alright in sc2 now. WC3 was ALL micro. There was no "macro" to speak of. I mean, most of the games you put 5 workers at gold at the beginning and that's the end of "macro". That's why moon was so good, he combined macro and micro to win that game (mass expands)... that being said the micro wasn't ridiculous in WC3, the game moved a lot slower than in SC2 so it's more forgiving. A guy with 100 APM in WC3 could do a lot more than a guy with 100 APM in SC2 generally (obviously Elfi/Goody have proven to be the exceptions)
Can't wait for Moon to switch over to SC2 fulltime, it'll be interesting to say the least.
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Also If you want to go reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally old school you can add Bei and CrazyAssassin to the wc3 legends list but their dominance was before the game was played much in tournaments and such.
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Can we end the mindless speculation and enjoy the games?
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On October 04 2011 14:28 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:25 Dawski wrote:On October 04 2011 14:23 samd wrote:
LOL, the term legend gets thrown around a little too easily these days. Elfi was a high level player, but I wouldn't call him a wc3 legend. I would reserve non-Korean legend status for grubby, tod, insomnia, creo, heman, fatc, madfrog, deadman, shortround and maybe a few others. non-korean? i wasnt a wc3 follower outside of grubby/moon matches on youtube but wernt most best wc3 players chinese? nope when wc3 was on its prime the best players were koreans. the only eu player that was on even ground with them was grubby after 06 or so, and from the chinese players there were sky and xiaot. and maybe a couple others but not so dominant.
Grubby was a pretty dominate face on the scene long before 06. By 2004 he was already prettymuch in line with the top Koreans, winning wcg 04. I wouldn't say "even ground" for the typical Korean pro at any point in his career post 2003. Prettymuch the only person on even ground with him for consistently winning tournaments was moon.
On October 04 2011 14:31 samd wrote:
Also If you want to go reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally old school you can add Bei and CrazyAssassin to the wc3 legends list but their dominance was before the game was played much in tournaments and such.
LOL Bei. My favorite part about Bei was when he quit being a pro gamer, and instead focused on FFA games. His old FFA replays were ridiculous, like 5 noobs trying to simultaneously kill him and he would still win.
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On October 04 2011 14:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 14:17 Jamesbigpig wrote:On October 04 2011 13:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 13:55 Yamulo wrote:On October 04 2011 13:53 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
this is not the puma i know Yeah, Bitter is impressed with idra (as you should be), but puma is a big? right now. I don't know. In other news, now I think a protoss can win this! Puma never has been a big terran. Maybe right after his NASL win you could argue that, but he was still pretty untested against koreans at that time. You do realize Darkforce was the only non-Korean in the round of 8 of NASL right? That means Puma had to go through 3 Koreans at least, and I know that he beat both July and MC. He did very well at MLG, playing at the level of all the Koreans there. Add IEM Cologne, to say Puma is not that good compared to Koreans is ridiculous. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Korean scene right now and they will tell you he is code-S level. He also was quite a beast in the GSTL when he was on TSL. The koreans he went through weren't very notable, he never played against July, he played against Squritle barely beating him 2-1 (squirtle hasn't been in code A for like 3 seasons now), he beat MC which was right when Protoss actually began to struggle, then he went to IEM Cologne, lost to Mana 2-0 in group, beat MC with 3 1-1-1's in a row prepatch, and beast in GSTL? He played like one series where he got a 3 kill. Before then he was hardly ever played because he was on the brink of B team. Now getting to MLG, he went 5-0 in group, but he got destroyed by Coca who was known for a bad ZvT, and then he lost to Nada when he was up in the extended series. Code S level is a pretty big phrase for someone who has never qualified for code A once and couldn't make it to top 3 at MLG even if DRG wasn't there to take the spot. He's definitely code A level, but there's a lot of players in code A who deserve spots over some of the older code S players right now. Doesn't take anything away from how awesome idra was in that series, but I agree with this. Puma is good, but, I never really considered him top tier in any of the match ups, not even tvt which was supposedly some of the best in the world. He got way to much hype because of artosis and by being a practice partner with Flash. I think he's code A, could probably even get code S if he worked at it for 2-3 seasons, but I don't think he's big at all. edit: he did actually play july though
Basing it off of the current GSL results I would say Cocoa fixed his ZvT in the same way that Bomber fixed his TvZ and MVP fixed his TvP.
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On October 04 2011 14:31 Tewks44 wrote:
I'm worried for IdrA in the finals. I'm don't follow him too closely but from the games I've seen out of him his ZvP is pretty lackluster.
Yeah me to. I really want idra to win but he doesn't seem to confident in zvp. Hope he proves me wrong like he's been doing all IEM for me (I didn't think he'd make it out of his group and he barely did, thought he'd lose to revival, then puma).
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On October 04 2011 14:29 P3rytt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:24 Heavenly wrote:On October 04 2011 14:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 14:17 Jamesbigpig wrote:On October 04 2011 13:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 13:55 Yamulo wrote:On October 04 2011 13:53 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
this is not the puma i know Yeah, Bitter is impressed with idra (as you should be), but puma is a big? right now. I don't know. In other news, now I think a protoss can win this! Puma never has been a big terran. Maybe right after his NASL win you could argue that, but he was still pretty untested against koreans at that time. You do realize Darkforce was the only non-Korean in the round of 8 of NASL right? That means Puma had to go through 3 Koreans at least, and I know that he beat both July and MC. He did very well at MLG, playing at the level of all the Koreans there. Add IEM Cologne, to say Puma is not that good compared to Koreans is ridiculous. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Korean scene right now and they will tell you he is code-S level. He also was quite a beast in the GSTL when he was on TSL. The koreans he went through weren't very notable, he never played against July, he played against Squritle barely beating him 2-1 (squirtle hasn't been in code A for like 3 seasons now), he beat MC which was right when Protoss actually began to struggle, then he went to IEM Cologne, lost to Mana 2-0 in group, beat MC with 3 1-1-1's in a row prepatch, and beast in GSTL? He played like one series where he got a 3 kill. Before then he was hardly ever played because he was on the brink of B team. Now getting to MLG, he went 5-0 in group, but he got destroyed by Coca who was known for a bad ZvT, and then he lost to Nada when he was up in the extended series. Code S level is a pretty big phrase for someone who has never qualified for code A once and couldn't make it to top 3 at MLG even if DRG wasn't there to take the spot. Lol there's no point, people will just quote you and call you a hater/korean lover/whatever. I guess people are so tired of watching Koreans win everything that they'll just go crazy whenever a foreigner manages to beat any of the mid-tier ones that he usually loses to in practice anyway. Good for IdrA though, he's playing about the level you would expect from him. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, I don't think he was slumping bad but if you have a 50% chance of winning a series, sometimes you'll get the bad end more often than expected. What you don't get is that most people are just happy Idra won against the odds versus a very good korean player now if you don't think Puma is good I'm not sure what to tell you but writing a novel about his past 5 tournaments doesn't make you any less of a hater lol just go.
Uh, I do get that and I didn't write a novel about his past 5 tournaments. Lmao people like you are hilarious, you just say random insults.
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how long till finals? sorry if this has been asked
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On October 04 2011 14:32 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:29 P3rytt wrote:On October 04 2011 14:24 Heavenly wrote:On October 04 2011 14:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 14:17 Jamesbigpig wrote:On October 04 2011 13:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 13:55 Yamulo wrote:On October 04 2011 13:53 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
this is not the puma i know Yeah, Bitter is impressed with idra (as you should be), but puma is a big? right now. I don't know. In other news, now I think a protoss can win this! Puma never has been a big terran. Maybe right after his NASL win you could argue that, but he was still pretty untested against koreans at that time. You do realize Darkforce was the only non-Korean in the round of 8 of NASL right? That means Puma had to go through 3 Koreans at least, and I know that he beat both July and MC. He did very well at MLG, playing at the level of all the Koreans there. Add IEM Cologne, to say Puma is not that good compared to Koreans is ridiculous. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Korean scene right now and they will tell you he is code-S level. He also was quite a beast in the GSTL when he was on TSL. The koreans he went through weren't very notable, he never played against July, he played against Squritle barely beating him 2-1 (squirtle hasn't been in code A for like 3 seasons now), he beat MC which was right when Protoss actually began to struggle, then he went to IEM Cologne, lost to Mana 2-0 in group, beat MC with 3 1-1-1's in a row prepatch, and beast in GSTL? He played like one series where he got a 3 kill. Before then he was hardly ever played because he was on the brink of B team. Now getting to MLG, he went 5-0 in group, but he got destroyed by Coca who was known for a bad ZvT, and then he lost to Nada when he was up in the extended series. Code S level is a pretty big phrase for someone who has never qualified for code A once and couldn't make it to top 3 at MLG even if DRG wasn't there to take the spot. Lol there's no point, people will just quote you and call you a hater/korean lover/whatever. I guess people are so tired of watching Koreans win everything that they'll just go crazy whenever a foreigner manages to beat any of the mid-tier ones that he usually loses to in practice anyway. Good for IdrA though, he's playing about the level you would expect from him. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, I don't think he was slumping bad but if you have a 50% chance of winning a series, sometimes you'll get the bad end more often than expected. What you don't get is that most people are just happy Idra won against the odds versus a very good korean player now if you don't think Puma is good I'm not sure what to tell you but writing a novel about his past 5 tournaments doesn't make you any less of a hater lol just go. Uh, I do get that and I didn't write a novel about his past 5 tournaments. Lmao people like you are hilarious, you just say random insults.
calling you a hater, when ur obviously one isnt an insult :\
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On October 04 2011 14:32 pt wrote:
Can we end the mindless speculation and enjoy the games?
Well the games haven't exactly started yet...so more mindless speculation! 
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On October 04 2011 14:30 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:28 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On October 04 2011 14:25 Dawski wrote:On October 04 2011 14:23 samd wrote:
LOL, the term legend gets thrown around a little too easily these days. Elfi was a high level player, but I wouldn't call him a wc3 legend. I would reserve non-Korean legend status for grubby, tod, insomnia, creo, heman, fatc, madfrog, deadman, shortround and maybe a few others. non-korean? i wasnt a wc3 follower outside of grubby/moon matches on youtube but wernt most best wc3 players chinese? nope when wc3 was on its prime the best players were koreans. the only eu player that was on even ground with them was grubby after 06 or so, and from the chinese players there were sky and xiaot. and maybe a couple others but not so dominant. Well you have Creo who was arguably the best player for a very short period of time, ToD was dominant. Obviously Moon and FoV are up there, and Sweet/Check/Susi/Luci/Lyn/Remind (dunno if I'm forgetting anyone), but the disparity was never as big as it is in SC2. Grubby was better than all of those except Moon, and personally I think Sky is the 3rd best player of all-time. Which makes it one Korean (Moon) in the top 3.
Forgot about infi the chinese player who was really dominant as well and still is.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
It would be nice to see IdrA win something big again, but seeing him rage would be delicious as well. I'm just gonna stay neutral and enjoy the games.
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don't forget idra had to beat 2 koreans in 2 bo5's to get to the final. stop downplaying him
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LOL IdrA 3-1 TSL.Revival and 3-0 EG.PuMa and people are still trying to find ways to discredit the guy. Amazing.
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On October 04 2011 14:32 huyman wrote:
how long till finals? sorry if this has been asked
Like 1 hour and a half or 1hour if we get quick series  3rd place match coming up
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On October 04 2011 14:32 pt wrote:
Can we end the mindless speculation and enjoy the games?
You're asking us to stop discussing in a discussion thread.
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On October 04 2011 14:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:24 Heavenly wrote:On October 04 2011 14:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 14:17 Jamesbigpig wrote:On October 04 2011 13:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 13:55 Yamulo wrote:On October 04 2011 13:53 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
this is not the puma i know Yeah, Bitter is impressed with idra (as you should be), but puma is a big? right now. I don't know. In other news, now I think a protoss can win this! Puma never has been a big terran. Maybe right after his NASL win you could argue that, but he was still pretty untested against koreans at that time. You do realize Darkforce was the only non-Korean in the round of 8 of NASL right? That means Puma had to go through 3 Koreans at least, and I know that he beat both July and MC. He did very well at MLG, playing at the level of all the Koreans there. Add IEM Cologne, to say Puma is not that good compared to Koreans is ridiculous. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Korean scene right now and they will tell you he is code-S level. He also was quite a beast in the GSTL when he was on TSL. The koreans he went through weren't very notable, he never played against July, he played against Squritle barely beating him 2-1 (squirtle hasn't been in code A for like 3 seasons now), he beat MC which was right when Protoss actually began to struggle, then he went to IEM Cologne, lost to Mana 2-0 in group, beat MC with 3 1-1-1's in a row prepatch, and beast in GSTL? He played like one series where he got a 3 kill. Before then he was hardly ever played because he was on the brink of B team. Now getting to MLG, he went 5-0 in group, but he got destroyed by Coca who was known for a bad ZvT, and then he lost to Nada when he was up in the extended series. Code S level is a pretty big phrase for someone who has never qualified for code A once and couldn't make it to top 3 at MLG even if DRG wasn't there to take the spot. Lol there's no point, people will just quote you and call you a hater/korean lover/whatever. I guess people are so tired of watching Koreans win everything that they'll just go crazy whenever a foreigner manages to beat any of the mid-tier ones that he usually loses to in practice anyway. You are right there is no point in arguing with people like you 2 who discredit every foreigner win vs a korean especially one who won IEM china as well and had a good run at MLG losing to Nada 4-3 who koreans consider Nada's tvt to be really really good.
I was never discrediting idra's win. I'm not gonna make some excuse that puma threw those games or played awful, just saying that I could name 15 terrans off the top of my head that are better than Puma and that he is not code S caliber. He can take games off code S players if that'll make anyone feel better. But when you have never qualified for GSL and during a period of terran dominance then you are not worthy of being called code S caliber.
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On October 04 2011 14:33 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:32 Heavenly wrote:On October 04 2011 14:29 P3rytt wrote:On October 04 2011 14:24 Heavenly wrote:On October 04 2011 14:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 14:17 Jamesbigpig wrote:On October 04 2011 13:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 04 2011 13:55 Yamulo wrote:On October 04 2011 13:53 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
this is not the puma i know Yeah, Bitter is impressed with idra (as you should be), but puma is a big? right now. I don't know. In other news, now I think a protoss can win this! Puma never has been a big terran. Maybe right after his NASL win you could argue that, but he was still pretty untested against koreans at that time. You do realize Darkforce was the only non-Korean in the round of 8 of NASL right? That means Puma had to go through 3 Koreans at least, and I know that he beat both July and MC. He did very well at MLG, playing at the level of all the Koreans there. Add IEM Cologne, to say Puma is not that good compared to Koreans is ridiculous. Ask anyone who knows anything about the Korean scene right now and they will tell you he is code-S level. He also was quite a beast in the GSTL when he was on TSL. The koreans he went through weren't very notable, he never played against July, he played against Squritle barely beating him 2-1 (squirtle hasn't been in code A for like 3 seasons now), he beat MC which was right when Protoss actually began to struggle, then he went to IEM Cologne, lost to Mana 2-0 in group, beat MC with 3 1-1-1's in a row prepatch, and beast in GSTL? He played like one series where he got a 3 kill. Before then he was hardly ever played because he was on the brink of B team. Now getting to MLG, he went 5-0 in group, but he got destroyed by Coca who was known for a bad ZvT, and then he lost to Nada when he was up in the extended series. Code S level is a pretty big phrase for someone who has never qualified for code A once and couldn't make it to top 3 at MLG even if DRG wasn't there to take the spot. Lol there's no point, people will just quote you and call you a hater/korean lover/whatever. I guess people are so tired of watching Koreans win everything that they'll just go crazy whenever a foreigner manages to beat any of the mid-tier ones that he usually loses to in practice anyway. Good for IdrA though, he's playing about the level you would expect from him. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, I don't think he was slumping bad but if you have a 50% chance of winning a series, sometimes you'll get the bad end more often than expected. What you don't get is that most people are just happy Idra won against the odds versus a very good korean player now if you don't think Puma is good I'm not sure what to tell you but writing a novel about his past 5 tournaments doesn't make you any less of a hater lol just go. Uh, I do get that and I didn't write a novel about his past 5 tournaments. Lmao people like you are hilarious, you just say random insults. calling you a hater, when ur obviously one isnt an insult :\
Looking at your sig, I think it's more that you're just an IdrA fanboy. 
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On October 04 2011 14:30 WeMadeFoxer wrote:
elfi was 2nd best EU udplayer after Happy and top4 wc3 player in finland with Bringer, Satiini and konna. Unfortunately UD couldn´t win big things in those times, not even Happy or Lucifer
Omg Nostalgia, Bringer <3 was going to add him but figured no-one would know of him First ever pro game i downloaded was Bringer vs Grubby on TS and Grubby killed his altar and like 3 wells early game but bringer held on and bought back the win (Dotts were imba as fuck which helped) I loved his 2v2 combo with DNA in Hoorai aswell
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On October 04 2011 14:32 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:28 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On October 04 2011 14:25 Dawski wrote:On October 04 2011 14:23 samd wrote:
LOL, the term legend gets thrown around a little too easily these days. Elfi was a high level player, but I wouldn't call him a wc3 legend. I would reserve non-Korean legend status for grubby, tod, insomnia, creo, heman, fatc, madfrog, deadman, shortround and maybe a few others. non-korean? i wasnt a wc3 follower outside of grubby/moon matches on youtube but wernt most best wc3 players chinese? nope when wc3 was on its prime the best players were koreans. the only eu player that was on even ground with them was grubby after 06 or so, and from the chinese players there were sky and xiaot. and maybe a couple others but not so dominant. Grubby was a pretty dominate face on the scene long before 06. By 2004 he was already prettymuch in line with the top Koreans, winning wcg 04. I wouldn't say "even ground" for the typical Korean pro at any point in his career post 2003. Prettymuch the only person on even ground with him for consistently winning tournaments was moon. Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:31 samd wrote:
Also If you want to go reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally old school you can add Bei and CrazyAssassin to the wc3 legends list but their dominance was before the game was played much in tournaments and such. LOL Bei. My favorite part about Bei was when he quit being a pro gamer, and instead focused on FFA games. His old FFA replays were ridiculous, like 5 noobs trying to simultaneously kill him and he would still win.
Haha I don't even know if you can call Bei a pro-gamer. He was arguably the best wc3 player during a long stretch of time, but that was back when there were like 0 tournaments outside of Korea.
He was the definition of a ladder hero
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EPT
