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On July 12 2011 22:28 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:13 bittman wrote:On July 12 2011 22:10 Daralii wrote:On July 12 2011 22:06 Sc2Null wrote:
losira vs nestea ....r04 -.-? Unless Tester pulls off some miracle PvZ or NesTea suddenly became bad at ZvZ, probably. I really don't understand why so many pro terrans don't try to make at least a few thors once they have their armory up, especially given how popular huge muta flocks are becoming. I know that mutas are weaker than they were in BW, but you wouldn't just not build goliaths because marines are good. It's not a terran thing, its actually a TOP thing. If you ever watch his Bo5 vs ZENEXLine from the Super Tournament you'll be startled at how few Thors TOP built when Line went super heavy muta almost every single game. He's a great macro terran, but if it's not the key for marines or siege tanks TOP is a bit lost =P Yeah and Thor are so cheap and easy to build too, right? How many thors in a game you see any Terran that go marines/tank build? It's expensive, slow, take lots of time to build. Other race seems to never understand the MU. The problem with the Thor is it works like ghosts. You expect the zerg to screw up and clump your muta. If he clumps his muta, then even 1,2 thor are good enough. But if he doesn't clump his muta, then no matter how many thors you have, you will only shoot 1 muta at the time. And really, it's not that hard to spread box the muta as people think
I'm random, and though I don't claim to understand all the MU's well I do at least have to play them. I understand Thors are expensive, and I never waded into the ghost debate since for a Terran they are costly if not controlled well.
But I'm just generally saying that TOP seems to struggle with Mutas. He overstims marines, stims his entire army to chase often and even when an enormous flock of mutas is coming he rarely goes for a Thor. In game 1 and game 3, I don't think he could have made thors, and even his thors in game 2 were a bit "hmm", I was mainly referring to the Line game from the ST. I guess everytime I see TOP play I feel like he should use thors more just to cover his average micro.
But yeah, I see what you're saying with Thors like ghosts. If they don't achieve their reason for coming out, it was a costly investment with no return.
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On July 12 2011 22:28 canikizu wrote:
Other race seems to never understand the MU. The problem with the Thor is it works like ghosts. You expect the zerg to screw up and clump your muta. If he clumps his muta, then even 1,2 thor are good enough. But if he doesn't clump his muta, then no matter how many thors you have, you will only shoot 1 muta at the time. And really, it's not that hard to spread box the muta as people think
The problem is, you NEED to clump the mutas to snipe something. To fly in and snipe a tank quickly and move out before you take too much damage from Marines, you need to clump. When Terran has a couple of Thors with their army, it becomes very hard to snipe tanks because of it.
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On July 12 2011 22:40 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:28 canikizu wrote:
Other race seems to never understand the MU. The problem with the Thor is it works like ghosts. You expect the zerg to screw up and clump your muta. If he clumps his muta, then even 1,2 thor are good enough. But if he doesn't clump his muta, then no matter how many thors you have, you will only shoot 1 muta at the time. And really, it's not that hard to spread box the muta as people think The problem is, you NEED to clump the mutas to snipe something. To fly in and snipe a tank quickly and move out before you take too much damage from Marines, you need to clump. When Terran has a couple of Thors with their army, it becomes very hard to snipe tanks because of it.
Thors are more for zoning than actual damage. The marines are the units to kill the muta, the thors are the units to zone them into a certain area or formation. If you can achieve that zoning without thors then it seems fine to do so. With such an army trading based style it makes a bit more sense to not get a lot of thors.
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On July 12 2011 22:33 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:28 canikizu wrote:On July 12 2011 22:13 bittman wrote:On July 12 2011 22:10 Daralii wrote:On July 12 2011 22:06 Sc2Null wrote:
losira vs nestea ....r04 -.-? Unless Tester pulls off some miracle PvZ or NesTea suddenly became bad at ZvZ, probably. I really don't understand why so many pro terrans don't try to make at least a few thors once they have their armory up, especially given how popular huge muta flocks are becoming. I know that mutas are weaker than they were in BW, but you wouldn't just not build goliaths because marines are good. It's not a terran thing, its actually a TOP thing. If you ever watch his Bo5 vs ZENEXLine from the Super Tournament you'll be startled at how few Thors TOP built when Line went super heavy muta almost every single game. He's a great macro terran, but if it's not the key for marines or siege tanks TOP is a bit lost =P Yeah and Thor are so cheap and easy to build too, right? How many thors in a game you see any Terran that go marines/tank build? It's expensive, slow, take lots of time to build. Other race seems to never understand the MU. The problem with the Thor is it works like ghosts. You expect the zerg to screw up and clump your muta. If he clumps his muta, then even 1,2 thor are good enough. But if he doesn't clump his muta, then no matter how many thors you have, you will only shoot 1 muta at the time. And really, it's not that hard to spread box the muta as people think Mutas HAVE TO CLUMP to attack siege tanks. If you magic box over tanks then you can't focus fire anything and the marines can stim over and you just did 0 damage. Go watch some dde vs Idra games, he does extremely slow pushes with bunkers and siege tanks and thors, and the mutalisks are useless except in killing reinforcements because you can't attack into defenses protected by thors without taking heavy losses. Terrans say 20 muta magic boxing 1 thor makes it so thors are not good enough to use in the matchup when the thor is not for direct battles, it's for protection, like a super missile turret.
Or the Zerg can just see Terran haing low number of seige tank and instead poking seige tanks, he can just make a boatload of units and a move them in.
People need to stop using 1 set of random games as an example of a unit superiority. Until there's good statistics that going good number of thors is the answer of mass muta, then we'll talk. For all we know, those games might be just IdrA's bad day, dde's good day, Idra not get used to dde's strategy, blah blah,
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Getting kinda sick of Wolfs casting. Phony excitement mixed with no knowing much about high level play. Did he really not know a tech lab is 25 gas? Thats the thing, your casting professional games, you should at least have low diamond - masters knowledge. Basically alt tabbed the games excitement was killed in the last series ><. oh well go tastosis
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On July 12 2011 22:27 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:25 skrzmark wrote:
I think that hellion reaper build would be good against Zerg maybe.
Also I think they need to switch out some GSL maps for new ones. Which ones? I like the new Belshir beach and I look forward to more GSL maps.
Crossfire and Crevasse
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On July 12 2011 22:44 JediGamer wrote:
Getting kinda sick of Wolfs casting. Phony excitement mixed with no knowing much about high level play. Did he really not know a tech lab is 25 gas? Thats the thing, your casting professional games, you should at least have low diamond - masters knowledge. Basically alt tabbed the games excitement was killed in the last series ><. oh well go tastosis
except for the fact that he is a masters player in korea :\ and what u would rather have the moletrap doa fake excitement?
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On July 12 2011 20:26 Brian333 wrote:
How many times is Tester going to lose to these variations of Banshee / Raven / Marine / Tank all-ins? He's been losing to it since the GSL open season 2 qualifiers. Surprised more people don't just blind all-in him because he just cannot hold it.
same this build has proved it has over 95% win rate on open map why not use it everytime vs p
i dont see any p close to holding this yet on open map blizzard make sc2 an rts pls
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I think terran should build mass vikings to beat Mutalisk look at KKoma (littleboy) vs Jookto Open 3 Ro64 match.
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On July 12 2011 22:33 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:31 sjperera wrote:On July 12 2011 20:05 Rayansaki wrote:On July 12 2011 20:03 Zowon wrote:On July 12 2011 20:00 Jakkerr wrote:
PvT is such a fked up matchup when there's builds like this...
The protoss is forced to go robo first otherwise you get either banshee rushed or ghost rushed lol.
Well, you protoss have dts? Wouldn't that force the terran to go turrets or raven?  how dare use logic in balance discussion there's something called "Scan"... it's like Crono-boost... well actually like a Cyber-Core... every Terran get's it... so no, that "logic" doesn't work... 270 minerals per scan and it's a short term fix. It's not exactly the same as Terran is balanced around having the extra income from mules as they don't have the thing called chrono boost to speed up worker production
Oh no, you had to spend "270 minerals" before missile turrets to be able to kill a 125/125 unit that requires a 150/100 and 100/250 building to tech to.
On July 12 2011 22:53 weaintmagical87 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 20:26 Brian333 wrote:
How many times is Tester going to lose to these variations of Banshee / Raven / Marine / Tank all-ins? He's been losing to it since the GSL open season 2 qualifiers. Surprised more people don't just blind all-in him because he just cannot hold it. same this build has proved it has over 95% win rate on open map why not use it everytime vs p i dont see any p close to holding this yet on open map blizzard make sc2 an rts pls
It seems to be a "oh I'm in a tight pickle in this BoX scenario, better do this to even it up" build that people don't want to overuse because it would draw attention to it. It seriously seems like if terran is down in a series, especially if he just got beat hard, he'll pull this build out. Thorzain did/does it constantly versus MC and Naniwa, he does it at least 1-2 times per extended series. Problem is I have no idea if you could possibly nerf the build somehow, the only way I've seen it really get deflected is on certain maps where you can take a farther away expo without too much hassle.
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On July 12 2011 21:42 gakkgakk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 21:36 Alric wrote:On July 12 2011 21:33 gakkgakk wrote:On July 12 2011 21:32 Medrea wrote:On July 12 2011 21:29 Snowbear wrote:On July 12 2011 21:27 Medrea wrote:On July 12 2011 21:24 Snowbear wrote:I don't see a possibility to win againt this broodlord infestor combo, unless the terran is much ahead. Ghost are okay but very expensive  200/100 is not expensive. And they have snipe which is good against bio units. Which just so happen to be every single zerg unit and structure. And they have EMP which is good against units with energy or shields, which just so happens to be every protoss unit and structure. They are good! They are good when you got 10 or more. 10 = 2000/1000. You can not just get that if you are not on 4+ bases... Then when you got them, they are not very cost effective, unless you can emp clumped infestors. They will get some snipes off, but broodlords will kill them. Ghosts are awesome against broodlords. Snipe! 10 or more!? Holy crap that is a lot of ghosts. Im not talking about canister rifle DPS you know! Either way. Colossus are 300/200. I dont see the gripe. Ghosts are great against toss. Can be good vs infestors if you manage to get sick EMPs off. For sniping broodlords? Not so much. I disagree, snipe is super effective against broodlords. The range of snipe exceeds the range of brood lords, and it has zero cooldown so broodlords just melt against it. I respectfully disagree. If snipe didnt have energy cost it would be great, but unfortunantely it does cost energy. Also the broodlings makes it difficult for ghosts to get close to the broodlords. Also the zerg will probably have some lings/infestors near the broodlords, making it even harder to get snipes of.
Watch Byun vs. Zenio in Day 3 of the GSL Code S Ro32 to see just how amazing snipe is with cloaked ghosts against brood lord/infestor.
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On July 12 2011 22:54 skrzmark wrote:
I think terran should build mass vikings to beat Mutalisk look at KKoma (littleboy) vs Jookto Open 3 Ro64 match.
I haven't watched any of the games today, but kkoma's build is a 1 off thing. Vikings vs Mutas is almost never a good idea.
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On July 12 2011 22:53 weaintmagical87 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 20:26 Brian333 wrote:
How many times is Tester going to lose to these variations of Banshee / Raven / Marine / Tank all-ins? He's been losing to it since the GSL open season 2 qualifiers. Surprised more people don't just blind all-in him because he just cannot hold it. same this build has proved it has over 95% win rate on open map why not use it everytime vs p i dont see any p close to holding this yet on open map blizzard make sc2 an rts pls
Trickster inst the only one struggling to hold this build. Its pretty hard to do it, especially if you lose your obs. And when the push comes, you dont have much do defend against it. Plus, the raven can easily most of the scouting. MC lost to that same build against Bomber. I watched Naniwa lose a game on his stream also to that build.
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On July 12 2011 22:44 JediGamer wrote:
Getting kinda sick of Wolfs casting. Phony excitement mixed with no knowing much about high level play. Did he really not know a tech lab is 25 gas? Thats the thing, your casting professional games, you should at least have low diamond - masters knowledge. Basically alt tabbed the games excitement was killed in the last series ><. oh well go tastosis
The same Tastosis who couldn't name the 250mm Strike Cannons ability and thought Ultralisks could be slowed by concussive shell in GSL S1? Among a number of other factual errors?
Everyone makes mistakes, buddy, especially for races they don't main.
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Finally a good day for zerg
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YEEEEEEESSSSS RESULTS. I am happy. Gonna go watch the games.
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Zerg does well, zerg still gonna QQ.
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On July 12 2011 22:51 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:27 Medrea wrote:On July 12 2011 22:25 skrzmark wrote:
I think that hellion reaper build would be good against Zerg maybe.
Also I think they need to switch out some GSL maps for new ones. Which ones? I like the new Belshir beach and I look forward to more GSL maps. Crossfire and Crevasse
Would prefer them to phase out Metalopolis and XNC first IMO. Nothing against those two maps, just that they've been around for way too long.
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On July 12 2011 23:02 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:53 weaintmagical87 wrote:On July 12 2011 20:26 Brian333 wrote:
How many times is Tester going to lose to these variations of Banshee / Raven / Marine / Tank all-ins? He's been losing to it since the GSL open season 2 qualifiers. Surprised more people don't just blind all-in him because he just cannot hold it. same this build has proved it has over 95% win rate on open map why not use it everytime vs p i dont see any p close to holding this yet on open map blizzard make sc2 an rts pls Trickster inst the only one struggling to hold this build. Its pretty hard to do it, especially if you lose your obs. And when the push comes, you dont have much do defend against it. Plus, the raven can easily most of the scouting. MC lost to that same build against Bomber. I watched Naniwa lose a game on his stream also to that build.
There's not a single toss who holds it consistently. It's obviously imba but nerfing marines is such a big step that it probably won't happen (cause HOTS will come out too soon anyway).
Would prefer them to phase out Metalopolis and XNC first IMO. Nothing against those two maps, just that they've been around for way too long.
Amen! Both boring as hell and imba anyway. No reason for them to stay around anymore.
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EPT
