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Root just brought out the big guns. That is honestly the strongest line up Ive ever seen for a NA team for ROOT, and we'll teamliquid with their korean crew. Hard to call but Im handing this one to Root sadly.
Would love a Tyler/HuK vs Kiwikaki/Drewbie ace match though!
I'm thinking that Ret (uber-macro) vs. QXC (ridiculous aggression without cheese) and TLO (playing random and a bit inconsistent) vs. drewbie (super-solid) are gonna be toss-ups, could go either way. Jinro can take Slush (especially since he's been prepping for his TvZ against Idra) and I think KiWiKaKi is going to beat Haypro.
There's a very decent chance that this will go to the ace match. I can't wait to watch!
Ret/Jinro should win their matches but I think Kiwi will take out haypro, liquid looks slightly favoured here, would probably look better if Huk played.
This looks sick! My 2 favorite teams AND incontrol casting! I think it will go to the ace match with jiro beating slush, qxc beating ret, drewbie beating TLO and haypro beating kiwi. Liquid will pull the 4-3 win though
On January 19 2011 15:40 iNcontroL wrote: I will be casting this btw!
Which makes me wish that Tyler was in this, because then it could end up being one of the funniest casts of all time.
As for my prediction, I'm thinking that Liquid is going to take it. Here's my blow-by-blow account:
Ret v. qxc This is pretty even. I think the pros would put Ret significantly higher in terms of skill, but, in my experience, Ret seems to be slightly inconsistent and tends to not live up to his full potential in tournaments while qxc is consistently solid and has been improving day-by-day without fail. As those same people also say, though, Ret on his game is freaking unstoppable and his macro is godly. I think it could go either way here, but I'm giving the edge, and the win, to Ret, because I think qxc's harass with eventually fall to Ret's mighty macro. The games will either be incredibly close or clear Ret victories.
Jinro v. Slush Jinro, no question. Sorry, Slush, but Jinro has been moving forward by leaps and bounds and I haven't seen the same from you. Mind you, who really wants to have to face the feared Gorilla Terran who just took down MC? I don't envy you.
TLO v. drewbie This completely depends on what race TLO ends up rolling. Protoss and the victory goes to drewbie. Terran and Zerg I lean towards TLO (but I started SC2 as a TLO fanboy, so there you go). I think that TLO is going to start impressing with his random race play and, personally, I think his creativity combined with random race is a lethal mixture that can easily throw any opponent off. Don't discount the consistently solid play of drewbie, though. Edit: I'm thinking TLO might still be in a Z>T>P situation, though, so this match will be really, really interesting. There's also the fact that TLO is coming off an injury, so I think this might be the biggest toss-up of the entire set.
Haypro v. KiWiKaKi Breaking my streak of Liquid victory predictions, I'm going to have to say KiWiKaKi. I love watching the guy play and he can do absolutely amazing things. Haypro is, certainly, an impressive player, but I'm not sure how well he'll cope with KiWiKaKi's non-standard shock-and-awe play. Haypro seems like even more of a "standard" type player than some of the other Liquid members, so, even though he's very solid, I think he faces the most difficulty against creative players like KiWiKaKi.
Of course, any ace match would go to Liquid, as I choose them as the overall winner regardless. I see a 3-0 out of the gate, though, which means that even the Haypro v. KiWiKaKi game might not happen (but, hey, these are some really impressive matchups -- it could totally go either way). If the games were ordered differently it might go all the way through, but, to me, the probabilities are pretty front-loaded for Liquid.
On January 19 2011 15:08 Skillz_Man wrote: Root just brought out the big guns. That is honestly the strongest line up Ive ever seen for a NA team for ROOT, and we'll teamliquid with their korean crew. Hard to call but Im handing this one to Root sadly.
Would love a Tyler/HuK vs Kiwikaki/Drewbie ace match though!
Was that an intended pun considering they benched minigun? Either way I lol'd. :D
Wow, definitely one of the best clan matchups I've seen outside of Korea in a long time. This is definitely everyone's A-team (Tyler and huk could stand in anytime, of course).
On January 19 2011 15:40 iNcontroL wrote: I will be casting this btw!
I'm predicting a Liquid win. Granted there is a tossup with Ret vs. Qxc but if Ret is on his game then I think he can win, Qxc definitely has a strong chance (sorry Jos, but watching your code A :/). TLO and Jinro I am highly confident can roll over even if TLO is protoss. Then finally with Haypro "the underrated" vs. Kiwikaki. Kiwikaki has some ridiculously devastating play that he can pull out, but Haypro isn't no scrub either (qualifying for the GSL is tough) my money's on a surprisingly close game between Haypro and Kiwikaki (if they play) with Kiwi pulling out with a win.
Also incontrol casting is absolutely awesome, this should guarntee an entertaining game upon solid play.
Man I really dislike that ROOT mascot/icon. I love their players so much, I wish they had an icon that didn't look like a late 90s comic book mascot. Liquid's distinguished horse is dreamy.
I would guess 3-0 Liquid. I think Roots only hope of a win is Kiwi, but he might not get a chance to play. Other than that, QXC might be able to take the game from Ret if he plays like he is capable of.
On January 19 2011 15:08 Skillz_Man wrote: Root just brought out the big guns. That is honestly the strongest line up Ive ever seen for a NA team for ROOT, and we'll teamliquid with their korean crew. Hard to call but Im handing this one to Root sadly.
Would love a Tyler/HuK vs Kiwikaki/Drewbie ace match though!
Was that an intended pun considering they benched minigun? Either way I lol'd. :D
Haha, brilliant. xD Don't think it was intended though.
Anyways, pretty stacked lineup from Root and it's not going to be easy for Liquid in the slightest. =(
On January 19 2011 15:40 iNcontroL wrote: I will be casting this btw!
HELL YEAH!
4-0 Liquid, roots are good but seriously most of you are wishpredicting.
I don't know why they would be "wish predicting" when we're all on Team Liquids site, they are clearly more notorious. I would expect the "favorites" to be TL, regardless of talent.
Anyway, my opinions. QXC and Kiwi to hold the fort for root. Jinro will probably roll Slush, however in QXC and Drewbie, he has a couple of good prac partners. The wrong roll could spell the end for TLO. He may also be a little bit "out of touch." KiWiKaKi is the X factor here.
I THINK what I'm saying is... ROOT are in for a real chance here! With each game being a Bo1, the possibility for a shock is present.
Although I love Root gaming, I think TL is going to win 3-0. Root's only favorable matchup is haypro vs kiwikaki, and the series will not reach that far.
QXC is just too beast, and not many people play T like he does. I think Ret will likely lose that one, but you never know.
Jinro will not lose to slush. He just got done practicing with Ret and a bunch of Korean zergs for his match against IdrA. Slush just doesn't have that luxury.
qxc can definitely bear ret, Jinro will most likely beat Slush, TLO and Drewbie is a tossup, im thinking kiwi over haypro... 2-2 quite possible, not sure who would play ace match.
well qxc lost 4-1 to dimaga, so i go with ret here, TLO should win i hope. And haypro.. hard to predict realy lol. Anyways i think root will take this lol
One word Epic!! I wouldn't be surprised if Root win 3-1 as jinro winning the only match for TL. I feel like Drewbie is very underrated player have a real good shot of beating TLO.
I think the QXC and Drewbie matches will be good, but I don't think its quite as fair to put Jinro against Slush. It would have made more sense to put him against Kiwikaki and Haypro against Slush, no?
A HuK vs CatZ match would've been interesting if only because there seems to be a bit tension between the 2. I don't know if I misinterpreted the chat on his stream, but CatZ asked "Chris the orange" (I quote) why he was so BM with him by blocking him from his MSN.
This is going to be close in my opinion. Both sides have a very strong showing in their matchups with the drewbie/TLO and QXC/Ret games very close. Not to downplay haypro at all but kiwikaki has some of the most innovative and creative playstyles out there and he may just have a new never before seen build that haypro can't quite respond to. Jinro is quite the beast and assuming the lag from K servers isn't bad he should be able to beat Slush.
On January 20 2011 01:30 ZeromuS wrote: This is going to be close in my opinion. Both sides have a very strong showing in their matchups with the drewbie/TLO and QXC/Ret games very close. Not to downplay haypro at all but kiwikaki has some of the most innovative and creative playstyles out there and he may just have a new never before seen build that haypro can't quite respond to. Jinro is quite the beast and assuming the lag from K servers isn't bad he should be able to beat Slush.
My thoughts exactly about kiwi. How the hell do you practice for a match against kiwikaki? O_O
As much as I love team liquid, this is probably the worst pairing for them. If it was ret vs kiwikaki and tlo vs qxc then i would say otherwise, but as it stands bad luck for team liquid.
QXC's TvZ is too good for ret, who seems to struggle with that match up whenever he faces a world class opponent.
Jinro on JB vs a Zerg? Auto-win unless he forgets to block his ramp again.
TLO vs Drewbie is a toss up depending on what race TLO gets. I haven't seen any of his recent T or P and his Z would be about an even match for Drewbie. Drewbie does have a lot of ways to abuse Zerg and other Terrans so...toss up.
Kiwi will take Haypro to the cleaners, Haypro has been underperforming to what he's capable of recently (for the most part) and Kiwi has a way with dismantling zergs.
hmm is this going to be live or replay casted? cuz if its live, TLO has to play like at 6 or 5 am and hes kinda sick right now lol i doubt he would even show up lol
On January 20 2011 03:59 whiteLotus wrote: hmm is this going to be live or replay casted? cuz if its live, TLO has to play like at 6 or 5 am and hes kinda sick right now lol i doubt he would even show up lol
I like all the players here, but I am hoping to see Qxc, Jinro, (can't decide on game 3) and Kiwi win. I definitely wouldn't mind Ret or Slush winning instead, but I do hope Kiwi beats Haypro.
I think it will be a 2-2 split, with either drewbie or qxc winning, and I am almost positive kiwikaki will beat haypro. As for the ace, jinro will probably take it for liquid. But both drewbie and qxc winning is a possibility.
should be a great match up a lot of great players showing up to this, good luck ret love your play and have not seen you play in a while. i think Liquid should take it but i think it will be close probably 3-1 or 3-2.
Hard to predict where this will go with TLO playing random. If he gets Protoss I imagine it will be trouble for him. As long as he doesn't get Protoss or Zerg close positions I think he can win it though.
Jinro will win for sure, his TvZ has got to be monstrous right now after preparing for IdrA.
Ret vs. Qxc is a tough call for me, but I imagine Ret is more practiced right now having played in the GSL.
I'm not familiar enough with Haypro to judge that match.
Hopefully we get to see an ace match though. Maybe Jinro vs. Qxc? I can't imagine Liquid sending anyone but Jinro right now with his incredible performance since MLG Dallas.
On January 20 2011 12:59 dizzy101 wrote: Liquid beat Mouz in some clan war the other day, and Mouz 4-0'd Root in the GCPL.
So Liquid should be able to 4-0 Root (by the transitivity of 'being better than').
:O but we also just beat Mouz and Mouz beat Prime in the Machinima Realm, and we're ahead of Liquid in it as well, however we're down against EG... mmm, your logic makes very little sense, sorry
that, or root wins 3-1 with drewbie edging out an ill tlo. possibly drewbie edges out tlo, but ret takes qxc who might be lacking in practice due to studies/coaching, and it goes to ace match
don't underestimate root, these guys are awesome and if they went to korea to practice as a team they'd tear some progamer face fast
if i were to bet, i'd probably give tl 1.3 to 1 odds just for having jinro up for an eventual ace match
I think the ace match will probably be Jinro vs qxc, with qxc winning.
3-2 ROOT.
How do you see Qxc beating Jinro? Have you not watched the GSL? Also with Jinro preping for MKP he will be playing alot of TvT. Jinro has this beat
I've watched every GSL game, so yes. Jinro is a strong macro player, qxc is a very aggressive player, who I think can break Jinro early with 1 base play. If he can't, qxc is a master of keeping his economy strong while being aggressive, so he still stands a chance in the late game.
I think the ace match will probably be Jinro vs qxc, with qxc winning.
3-2 ROOT.
How do you see Qxc beating Jinro? Have you not watched the GSL? Also with Jinro preping for MKP he will be playing alot of TvT. Jinro has this beat
I've watched every GSL game, so yes. Jinro is a strong macro player, qxc is a very aggressive player, who I think can break Jinro early with 1 base play. If he can't, qxc is a master of keeping his economy strong while being aggressive, so he still stands a chance in the late game.
Yeah I think in a Jinro vs QXC Jinro would be heavily heavily favored. Jinro is almost in an entirely different class.
While I'm not going to pretend I'm correct, here are my guesses.
QXC>Ret. Ret is amazing, but his biggest weakness is overdroning. QXC is the kind of Terran who makes me HATE Terran's, constantly dropping, poking and prodding. While Ret my have the mechanical advantage, stylistically the edge goes to QXC. I feel like the map will help with the too. XC's wide open Nat will lead to lots of early game options for QXC.
Jinro>Slush. Lets face it, Jinro is good. Really good. He's taken out a lot of incredibly good zergs, can macro on level with zergs, or can go for early wins. His bag of tricks just gives him an edge here, made worse by it being on JB.
TLO=>Drewbie. This one is really random due to TLO and the map. If its Zerg+Close Pos I feel drewbie has a good chance, but in other situations it will go to TLO. Overall though, I'm giving a slight edge to TLO because he is so unique. There's a lot to be said about playing in an atypical yet strong way. It puts the game in TLO's control, its a situation he has practiced and his opponent probably hasn't.
Kiwi>Haypro. Haypro is good, no doubt, but I'm giving Kiwi the edge for the same reason I gave TLO an edge. Kiwi has a way of pulling stuff out of his hat to beat strong opponents, this is even stronger in a BO1 situation. He's also the kind of player who can take a typically Zerg favored map and use it to his advantage. Furthermore, Kiwi is no slouch mechanically. His macro is better than a lot of people's and he has terrifyingly good micro. I expect a really good (or at least, fun) match from these two.
This might be common knowledge, so don't give me shit for it, but TLO is random as opposed to Terran from Zerg now? I haven't been keeping track of him at all really, but that's very interesting, and pretty damn cool.
On January 21 2011 09:06 Mortal wrote: Sound like awesome matches!
This might be common knowledge, so don't give me shit for it, but TLO is random as opposed to Terran from Zerg now? I haven't been keeping track of him at all really, but that's very interesting, and pretty damn cool.
I think I agree, Liquid 3-1, but GL ROOT!
He's random on ladder, race picking in tournaments. He plays TvT not sure what he choses against other races.
oh so this is like set matches and everyone just plays 1 match per player? not like those clan wars where winner stays to play the challenger of opposing team.
My prediction is QXC > Ret and one of Kiwikaki or drewbie will take out TLO or Haypro, bringing it to the ace match. Sorry, but jinro is just gonna beat his gorilla chestin and roll over slush with some leet terran macro.
tbh i think it will come down to the TL-Drewbie match. That seems like the big point. The others all have a pretty big favorite. (Yeah okay, ret/qxc might be close)
I wish they would play huk also, but watching huk's stream it doesn't seem like he wants to play with the delay. It seems kind of selfish considering Jinro is giving up his practice time for semifinals of GSL to play in this.
On January 21 2011 11:43 ffz wrote: I wish they would play huk also, but watching huk's stream it doesn't seem like he wants to play with the delay. It seems kind of selfish considering Jinro is giving up his practice time for semifinals of GSL to play in this.
lol i never thought of it that way, that is pretty bm of huk ;D
On January 21 2011 11:43 ffz wrote: I wish they would play huk also, but watching huk's stream it doesn't seem like he wants to play with the delay. It seems kind of selfish considering Jinro is giving up his practice time for semifinals of GSL to play in this.
lol i never thought of it that way, that is pretty bm of huk ;D
On January 21 2011 11:43 ffz wrote: I wish they would play huk also, but watching huk's stream it doesn't seem like he wants to play with the delay. It seems kind of selfish considering Jinro is giving up his practice time for semifinals of GSL to play in this.
lol i never thought of it that way, that is pretty bm of huk ;D
lolllllll well when we win, huk isnt getting any of the money :D
Jinro will win Jungle Basin automatically and Haypro will win automatically, biased maps toward TL. Maybe it wasn't on purpose, but it essentially predicts who's going to win in my opinion. Hopefully I am proven wrong! Root has good players, but the map odds are against them!
actually i think KiWiKaKi has a good chance of beating Haypro even on Scrap Station. He's renown for coming with fucked up builds that will catch the opponent off guard.
Jinro will win Jungle Basin automatically and Haypro will win automatically, biased maps toward TL. Maybe it wasn't on purpose, but it essentially predicts who's going to win in my opinion. Hopefully I am proven wrong! Root has good players, but the map odds are against them!
I'm pretty sure if you look at the statistics in most tournaments, the map win/loss differential is slim to none other than when maps like Kulas and DO were in the pool.
Root doesn't really stand a chance now. This was one of the games I thought they could take, I don't think they will now. Still will be awesome though.
Three gate blink stalker rush coming from Mini, Ret opens pool first, and scouts the rush as it begins with an overlord. One spine crawler already up from Ret, massing roaches and lings to defend.
Ret holds off the stalker pressure for a while, but Mini micros excellently, drawing Ret off of creep several times, and eventually sniping his queen, which shuts down Ret's macro and allows Mini to get a decisive edge, saving more and more of his army and eventually eliminating the last of Ret's roaches, forcing the GG.
So what does zerg do against that? Try and get quick hydras? I doubt you can get enough out to effectively deal with 4 gates. Maybe more speedlings in the unit composition? But against blink, they just turn to shreds and also use up larvae that could be roaches. Hmmm a toughie. More spine crawlers?
On January 21 2011 13:16 Skillz_Man wrote: Someone has been getting lessons from Kiwikaki. Very nicely played by minigun, that micro was simply superb.
Crucial win there. There might be a chance for an ace match in this series.
On January 21 2011 13:17 Telcontar wrote: So what does zerg do against that? Try and get quick hydras? I doubt you can get enough out to effectively deal with 4 gates. Maybe more speedlings in the unit composition? But against blink, they just turn to shreds and also use up larvae that could be roaches. Hmmm a toughie. More spine crawlers?
Quick hydras is the hard counter. What Ret did also works well IF you're able to spread creep early on at your nat and NOT go off it at all. He even managed to get a spine there so he would've been in a good spot otherwise.
On January 21 2011 13:17 Telcontar wrote: So what does zerg do against that? Try and get quick hydras? I doubt you can get enough out to effectively deal with 4 gates. Maybe more speedlings in the unit composition? But against blink, they just turn to shreds and also use up larvae that could be roaches. Hmmm a toughie. More spine crawlers?
2-3 Spine crawlers with sling + with some roach is good.
On January 21 2011 13:26 Pandain wrote: O god I think catz pool blocks the vespene gas mining. does it?
Nah. That's a pretty good spot to put a pool to make a little sim city. Against a hellion harass if the terran tries to go to the back minerals you block its path with 2 drones.
Catz rushes with four drones, but Jinro pulls six scvs and finishes the barracks while chasing the drones around. Catz takes one scv out and then runs back home. Jinro adds a factory to complete a wall-in and then pushes with four marines and an a hellion, but Catz holds with his first couple roaches.
Catz then pushes and gets under Jinro's factory as it tries to change add-ons, causing Jinro to pull all his scvs and take some losses. Catz overcommits to the attack though, trying to break the wall with roaches and then banelings, while Jinro has taken an expansion and defends with a banshee.
Cloak incomming, CatZ expanding, but Jinro is ahead, firmly, at last. Infestation pit coming from Catz.
On January 21 2011 13:26 Pandain wrote: O god I think catz pool blocks the vespene gas mining. does it?
Nah. That's a pretty good spot to put a pool to make a little sim city. Against a hellion harass if the terran tries to go to the back minerals you block its path with 2 drones.
Look closely. At one point you can see 3 drones(meaning one inside the vespene geyser). Unless I'm wrong
Catz plants 4 burrowed infestors right outside of Jinro's main. Jinro lifts his Starport, the Infestors try to move in, but Jinro gets suspicious when he can't plant down Depots. Jinro scans and kills all the infestors.
Catz queueing infestors right at Jinro's ramp as Jinro masses marines and tanks, with one thor for extra awesomeness. Jinro prepares a drop, and lifts his starport. The infestors sneak in, but not before Jinro tries to build supply depots on them, and can't, which causes a scan and the four infestors completely evaporate right below Jinro's army.
Catz massing lings and infestors. Jinro pushes out, but gets marines stuck on a ramp, and loses a gobfull to tanks. Jinro still holds his position though, and takes his third at the middle, the unwinnable position for the zerg. Catz masses banelings and prepares to attack, while Jinro turtles.
I honestly think catz should double expand and use infestor banling speedling to defend/slow terran while teching. I don't agree that catz should attack into Jinro's 3rd.
Jinro slow pushes towards Catz's base, and Catz tries a last ditch attempt to defend, but gets absolutely massacred under massed tank fire. Catz stays in a little longer to morph in a few broodlords, but Jinro has no problem dealing with these, and Catz gg's.
On January 21 2011 13:49 AlBundy wrote: Did I miss something? What about TLO vs Drewbie? According to the line-up, Haypro vs. Kiwi should come up afterward.
TLO vs drewbie is a replay, so they decided to play the live games first as long as the players are online.
Kiwikaki takes his gas before a gateway while HayprO expands after his first zerglings. HayprO sees something is fishy, and keeps his overlord overhead, scouting the forge and robo at the back of HayprO's base. Kiwi adds three more gateways, then loads three zealots and a probe into a warp prism and drops it into HayprO's base. HayprO has roaches coming and patiently waits until he builds up roaches, while Kiwi continues with his four gate, but Haypro overwhelms him eventually, then snipes the warp prism later.
Very nice early game strat by Kiwikaki, however the transition doesn't seem very smooth. He commited a bit too much and expanded way too late in my opinion.
Kiwi transitions to immortals, while HayprO consolidates his advantage, and several infolings scout Kiwi's army and intention to expand. HayprO is spreading creep around his base, and has a great wall of scouting overlords between his base. HayprO eventually gets hydras, and breaks through the middle rocks. Kiwi throws down some great forcefields, but HayprO slips zerglings around the back, killing the probes at Kiwi's natural. The force fields run out eventually, and Kiwi gg's as the hydra army moves in. GG.
On January 21 2011 14:00 AlBundy wrote: Very nice early game strat by Kiwikaki, however the transition doesn't seem very smooth. He commited a bit too much and expanded way too late in my opinion.
Very good defense by Haypro.
There is no transition out of this, if the attack doesn't do a huge amount of damage you're pretty much dead.
On January 21 2011 14:00 AlBundy wrote: Very nice early game strat by Kiwikaki, however the transition doesn't seem very smooth. He commited a bit too much and expanded way too late in my opinion.
Very good defense by Haypro.
There is no transition out of this, if the attack doesn't do a huge amount of damage you're pretty much dead.
So that was an all-in build? Oh well... :s nevermind then, I must admit that so far I'm disappointed by ROOT' player's strategies.
TLO opening with a stargate, but Drewbie is going 1-1-1, and gets a viking out in time to defend without losing anything to the quick void rays. TLO is going 1-of-everything style with an expansion, forge, and robo all going down at the same time. Drewbie gets a hellion and then a banshee into TLO's base, which kills seven probes before being taken out. Drewbie is running around scouting with a hellion while both players expand.
TLO aiming for colossus-phoenix, while Drewbie pressures with marines and medivacs but gets repulsed. TLO gets another expansion to celebrate. Drewbie taking one too.
Drewbie moving around to TLO's third, and he stims in and takes it out. TLO is harassing all around with phoenixes, but Drewbie has turret cover at all his mineral lines. Drewbie prepares a double drop, but TLO catches one of the segments with phoenixes and backs off with the other. Drewbie has his third coming and TLO pushes with colossus-phoenix against Drewbie's bio army. TLO devastates Drewbie's army in the open, and Drewbie GG's immediately. Eight phoenixes, six colossi remain with a handful of gateway units. Ouch.
TLO wins with Protoss? Man, and I thought his Zerg and Terran were good, now he's quite decent with Protoss. I'm impressed with TLO's play. He has truly become the king of random.
Here's hoping for TLO vs GuMiHo Random vs Random match in the future.
my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
I would have thought it would have been better to keep this internal rather then making a grandstanding post bashing ROOT on the public forums for reason. I don't understand why you decided to post this after we apologized for the mistake regarding qxc and had the substitution of catz for slush pre-approved by Nazgul. We hope the league continues in a successful and professional manner.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
? really Duran?
ok, so rules state we have to present lineups 1 day before the CW, our Admin (Crunchtime) was informed then that he had to present the lineup 3-4 days prior, I can't recall exactly but we did not submit our lineup yesterday, it was a lot before that.
I told our admin to put DdoRo in Jungle Basin expecting a PvP there, then he was forced to submit a lineup while being at work, not yesterday as the rules stated but 3-4 days prior.
so he asks DdoRo on the spot and he said he can't make it, so he puts in SLush (which is silly to do on JB but SLush couldn't make it either). the rest of the lineup goes as I asked him to do it, but we didn't have the opportunity to confirm qxc (who just arrived in spain a few days ago and hasn't been on a lot lately) so when qxc tells us "you know im in spain right? i can't play at 6am" we're left with no choice but to sub in minigun or take a forfeit loss.
So lets get things clear here: we were trying to help liquid out by submiting a much earlier lineup than the rules state, as we are a team that values respect and sportsmanship, you of all people should realise and know how much admins have to get done around this time with tons of leagues, on top of that : qxc JUST moved to spain and drewbie JUST moved to florida, and on top of that, we have to submit a super early lineup without being able to confirm half of our players for it due to time issues, I believe you're being incredibly unfair here.
I'll be more than glad to share the blame because, again, we had/have A LOT to do and circumstances with our players moving and not being as active in the last couple of days + forcing an early lineup upon us was too much for my admin to handle from his dayjob (that's where he HAD to submit the lineup). But I think you should be a good sport too and realise that this wasn't something we planned upon or that would've happened had we not tried to help team liquid out by rescheduling (to the viewers, this is why Drewbie had to play TLO at an earlier time, and I actually applaud drewbie for this because he just finished setting up his computer and we've been very busy with house and getting settled in)
sooooo.... yeah, not really, and I don't appreciate that Duran.
I never said that you HAD to get the lineups in earlier - I said that Liquid was requesting it in order to help make things go smoothly, I don't see why two teams who are in such a high position in the scene can't arrange that... I arranged our whole cw with EG for a different time because we have some conflicts Sunday and it was no problem.
I also don't see why you couldn't talk to Liquid about Qxc's situation (instead of waiting until just a few hours before the match to mention it)... in fact, playing TLO vs Qxc would have solved the entire issue o-o!
Anyways at least the situation is worked out and no problem, lets hope this doesn't happen again in the future!
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
I don't know who's right or who's wrong. What I do know is that these administrative and internal matters should be kept on private channels. Anyway, it seems like it was all a misunderstanding.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
this probably should have been kept internal
Why should it have been kept internal? I like hearing whats actually going on. And I mean it shouldn't really matter, it seemed like roots going through a hectic time and it didnt appear to cause any problems.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
this probably should have been kept internal
Why should it have been kept internal? I like hearing whats actually going on. And I mean it shouldn't really matter, it seemed like roots going through a hectic time and it didnt appear to cause any problems.
It should be kept internal because posting it on a public forum doesn't do anything to address the problem. Both parties were notified privately about what happened and what should have been done, clearly things should have been handled differently, and that should have been enough. Posting about your prediction about two teams in a tournament you're in charge of and blowing off some steam isn't helping the situation.
On January 21 2011 14:18 Xeris wrote: my prediction was right lulz... anyways, here's my statement about the sub situation:
I'm really disappointed right now by Root. (1) Liquid asked Root last week about trying to play a match or two early in order to compensate for their European players (who obviously can't play at 5-6am)... Nazgul and I message'd the Root admin about this. After a long delay, we finally got the Root lineup yesterday, and they had agreed to play TLO vs Drewbie today several hours before the match. (2) I don't know why they would not schedule Qxc to play vs TLO (since he's in Europe), and instead put him in a position that he would have to play at 6am. (3) An email was sent out to all team managers informing them about the full schedule, match times, etc... there is no excuse by Root to have not known this.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Then, a different Root manager asks to sub out Qxc -- I wasn't informed about this until 7:57 pm. I told them basically that they couldn't do this, that it was their responsibility not to schedule a game for a player that couldn't show up.
I got home by the end of the first game, and I see that someone had talked to "GosuCoaching," and they had switched Qxc for Minigun. This should never have been allowed, and I wish I was informed in time to stop this from happening.
Thankfully, the result was not skewed by this ... my apologies for allowing this breach to happen.
this probably should have been kept internal
Why should it have been kept internal? I like hearing whats actually going on. And I mean it shouldn't really matter, it seemed like roots going through a hectic time and it didnt appear to cause any problems.
Because once you bring internal matters into the public, the issue becomes more magnified. The public starts to scrutinize it and takes side. It becomes a bigger issue than it should be. You never want people to see your dirty laundry.
Clearly Xeris's post isn't an administrative or internal matter. It's a public statement. He explains that there was an illegal substitution that should not have been allowed and he explains the circumstances of it happening. And, consummate professional he is, he apologizes for letting it happen on his watch. Nothing is extraneous. Better to publicly admit the mistake and apologize with a full explanation than stay quiet and let people wonder about the integrity of the lineups.
I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT.
But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments...
On January 21 2011 15:41 Tatari wrote: Wow, this is gonna be one interesting clanwar~
I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT.
But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments...
By airing the dirty laundry, I feel the spotlight is unfairly shifted off of our winners, TL.
I also feel it's a sign of unprofessionalism from the organizers, who couldn't seem to get onto the same page as each other. I feel like if the 24 hour lineup submissions were followed, rather than trying to bend the rules to suit either party, this wouldn't have happened. I also think it's best for all involved that admins delete all this mungo jumbo, and get this thread back to a celebration for our rightful winners!
In the ESports scene, bad blood can spawn too quickly. My opinions only.
On January 21 2011 15:41 Tatari wrote: Wow, this is gonna be one interesting clanwar~
I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT.
But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments...
It's impressive how TLO is able to beat guys like drewbie with his worst race ♥ However, he was even able to beat Adelscott & White-Ra in PvP(!) in the last weeks, Adelscott in a tourney, White-Ra in a ladder game while he was streaming - so TLO just pwnz.
I agree with Tyler that its best to bring things out in the open but, from what CatZ is saying and as pointed out by Edward and others, it definitely wasn't the whole picture and the way it was said was not as respectful as it could have been.
On January 21 2011 15:41 Tatari wrote: Wow, this is gonna be one interesting clanwar~
I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT.
But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments...
@Xeris I'd be careful about this because part of what you said shouldn't be on a public forum, the other part if it was from the tournament organizer about the illegal substitutions I would understand if it was posted on the main thread as well and without the accusations of unprofessional-ism.
But as far as I can see I can't find any rules regarding substitutions anywhere to base your claim of an illegal substitution by ROOT. Nothing on gosucoaching.com nothing on the main thread on TL, so basically the only basis for you saying this is an illegal substitution is right here on the thread not even for the event as a whole saying.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not.
Did you tell them this? Are you sure everyone shared the same "logical conclusion?" I've never hard of such a rule in a clan war ever. It sounds like you didn't actually tell them this and such decisions really should be made and posted in the rules ahead of time not made partway through the event then posted in a manner that is calling the team who substituted unprofessional. I'd be fine with your post if you had left out the accusations of unprofessional-ism because then it would be like you were saying this new rule was in effect. But basically you're telling us after the fact that something was illegal, saying a team was unprofessional for doing it and not backing yourself up with where this was posted as being illegal.
It's a money tournament without clear substitution rules if a team like ROOT needed to make a substitution which by the claims of their managers it sounds like they would have had to give a FFW on that game... Then why are they not allowed to substitute in a player, also consider that with drewbie already playing TLO and qxc being subbed out they have no more terran players in their lineup so you're basically saying they had to take a FFW in either instance for a rule that sounds like you were forming during the event. So I"d be very careful about slinging accusations of unprofessionalism around Xeris.
edit: For those who don't know in my 2+ year stay on iccup I was not only super admin of tournaments but also for the Clan Wars division so yes I do know how Clan Wars run and have a basis for making my claim of never hearing of a rule like that before.
On January 21 2011 15:30 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Clearly Xeris's post isn't an administrative or internal matter. It's a public statement. He explains that there was an illegal substitution that should not have been allowed and he explains the circumstances of it happening. And, consummate professional he is, he apologizes for letting it happen on his watch. Nothing is extraneous. Better to publicly admit the mistake and apologize with a full explanation than stay quiet and let people wonder about the integrity of the lineups.
This is the last I'll say about this - with all due respect, there was no consummate professionalism in Xeris's post. He started out by saying "my predictions were correct lulz" and the post is laced with obvious bias. As I prefer to leave things internal, we've apologized to both Xeris and the TL guys for the obvious mixup in schedules. Although multiple players just recently went through very drastic living situation changes, we should have taken those into count. However, we'd expect that other teams would be mindful of our situation when scheduling (such as when we had Drewbie play TLO early to help accommodate his schedule).
Again, I know we're all in this for the progression of eSports, so good luck to everyone the rest of the way, and hopefully there are no more scheduling snafus.
On January 22 2011 02:25 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @Xeris I'd be careful about this because part of what you said shouldn't be on a public forum, the other part if it was from the tournament organizer about the illegal substitutions I would understand if it was posted on the main thread as well and without the accusations of unprofessional-ism.
But as far as I can see I can't find any rules regarding substitutions anywhere to base your claim of an illegal substitution by ROOT. Nothing on gosucoaching.com nothing on the main thread on TL, so basically the only basis for you saying this is an illegal substitution is right here on the thread not even for the event as a whole saying.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not.
Did you tell them this? Are you sure everyone shared the same "logical conclusion?" I've never hard of such a rule in a clan war ever. It sounds like you didn't actually tell them this and such decisions really should be made and posted in the rules ahead of time not made partway through the event then posted in a manner that is calling the team who substituted unprofessional. I'd be fine with your post if you had left out the accusations of unprofessional-ism because then it would be like you were saying this new rule was in effect. But basically you're telling us after the fact that something was illegal, saying a team was unprofessional for doing it and not backing yourself up with where this was posted as being illegal.
It's a money tournament without clear substitution rules if a team like ROOT needed to make a substitution which by the claims of their managers it sounds like they would have had to give a FFW on that game... Then why are they not allowed to substitute in a player, also consider that with drewbie already playing TLO and qxc being subbed out they have no more terran players in their lineup so you're basically saying they had to take a FFW in either instance for a rule that sounds like you were forming during the event. So I"d be very careful about slinging accusations of unprofessionalism around Xeris.
edit: For those who don't know in my 2+ year stay on iccup I was not only super admin of tournaments but also for the Clan Wars division so yes I do know how Clan Wars run and have a basis for making my claim of never hearing of a rule like that before.
There's a big difference between a league like this and a league like ICCUP CL. In BW leagues such as ICCUP CL where lineups are announced AT the time of the CW, there is only map preparation, not matchup preparation. In this league where lineups are announced beforehand - players have time to prepare for the map and matchup. If you can't see how it is unfair to cross-race sub then I don't know what to tell you.
If Ret spent his time practicing ZvT on Metalopolis only to end up having to face a Protoss, can you not see how that's unfair, especially when the other team knows there is a Zerg opponent on that map. So you can have a situation in which one team is prepared, and the other is not. Imagine if Liquid had lost the match, then there would be a big drama about how Root won with an unfair advantage because Ret was forced to play in an awkward position.
This substitution precedent was set in previous week's CW's, and was even set in this particular match, when Root and Liquid discussed switching Slush for CatZ - it was agreed by both that substitutions would be OK if they were the same race (which is why I mentioned it in the first place). It also doesn't change the fact that a player was knowingly scheduled to play at a time that was impossible for him.
I'm confused you say that somehow minigun was more prepared than Ret when Minigun didn't even know he was playing until he was told about the substitution? But the point is you're talking about how precedents were set and yet the rule was not posted anywhere. By saying that it was discussed and agreed that the switch would be OK if they were the same race what about in the case that the team has no more of that same race as ROOT did?
You keep bringing up the qxc issue but it has been specifically apologized for multiple times in this thread and it sounds like in private as well. I guess we define professional different if you're going to latch onto that mistake and say it makes them unprofessional. Mistakes happen in my opinion it depends on how you deal with it afterward that defines professionalism.
edit: basically my point is save yourself some trouble and sit down and figure out all the possibilities for substitutions write rules for them and POST them. SO that if this happens again you can point to the rules and tell the team they're not allowed to do that.
raelcun you don't think it sounds majorly unfair to swap out a player for one of a different race at the last moment? that seems pretty obvious to me, it should be obvious to anyone. if root was so disorganized they could always just forfeit the match, since life isn't always fair and sometimes one has to take responsibility for things when blame can't reasonably be put anywhere else.
now naz and teamliquid were probably hesitantly ok with the substitution, but i expect very annoyed by it. but that's just how they are because they are badasses and they want to play the games. it's clearly not fair at all, and it's the fault of ROOT. life goes on, though.
On January 22 2011 02:25 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @Xeris I'd be careful about this because part of what you said shouldn't be on a public forum, the other part if it was from the tournament organizer about the illegal substitutions I would understand if it was posted on the main thread as well and without the accusations of unprofessional-ism.
But as far as I can see I can't find any rules regarding substitutions anywhere to base your claim of an illegal substitution by ROOT. Nothing on gosucoaching.com nothing on the main thread on TL, so basically the only basis for you saying this is an illegal substitution is right here on the thread not even for the event as a whole saying.
Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not.
Did you tell them this? Are you sure everyone shared the same "logical conclusion?" I've never hard of such a rule in a clan war ever. It sounds like you didn't actually tell them this and such decisions really should be made and posted in the rules ahead of time not made partway through the event then posted in a manner that is calling the team who substituted unprofessional. I'd be fine with your post if you had left out the accusations of unprofessional-ism because then it would be like you were saying this new rule was in effect. But basically you're telling us after the fact that something was illegal, saying a team was unprofessional for doing it and not backing yourself up with where this was posted as being illegal.
It's a money tournament without clear substitution rules if a team like ROOT needed to make a substitution which by the claims of their managers it sounds like they would have had to give a FFW on that game... Then why are they not allowed to substitute in a player, also consider that with drewbie already playing TLO and qxc being subbed out they have no more terran players in their lineup so you're basically saying they had to take a FFW in either instance for a rule that sounds like you were forming during the event. So I"d be very careful about slinging accusations of unprofessionalism around Xeris.
edit: For those who don't know in my 2+ year stay on iccup I was not only super admin of tournaments but also for the Clan Wars division so yes I do know how Clan Wars run and have a basis for making my claim of never hearing of a rule like that before.
There's a big difference between a league like this and a league like ICCUP CL. In BW leagues such as ICCUP CL where lineups are announced AT the time of the CW, there is only map preparation, not matchup preparation. In this league where lineups are announced beforehand - players have time to prepare for the map and matchup. If you can't see how it is unfair to cross-race sub then I don't know what to tell you.
If Ret spent his time practicing ZvT on Metalopolis only to end up having to face a Protoss, can you not see how that's unfair, especially when the other team knows there is a Zerg opponent on that map. So you can have a situation in which one team is prepared, and the other is not. Imagine if Liquid had lost the match, then there would be a big drama about how Root won with an unfair advantage because Ret was forced to play in an awkward position.
This substitution precedent was set in previous week's CW's, and was even set in this particular match, when Root and Liquid discussed switching Slush for CatZ - it was agreed by both that substitutions would be OK if they were the same race (which is why I mentioned it in the first place). It also doesn't change the fact that a player was knowingly scheduled to play at a time that was impossible for him.
just so you know, when I talked to Russalo, we offered Minigun to play Terran (his offrace) as a sign of good faith to avoid this sort of thing, Russ said he'd check with Ret, I also suggested: "we have X Y and Z ready to play, they can pick, OR we can just get a Forfeit loss"
Russ said and I quote: " so minigun is ready? " I said: yes he is, he can play either P or T" Russ: ok lets do that then
so maybe instead of continuing on with this you should talk to people on your end of things, its a shame you're not very happy with ROOT, but perhaps you should try to be a bit more professional, and when you say "lets hold hands and sing" or whatever, maybe you should set the example, the more you talk, the worse you'll look here, we're in the wrong, but so are you, Big Time!
main difference is I am not posting for any other reason than defending myself and my team while you continue to attack. you say lets hold hands and sing, I say wash your hands after you take a dump, then we can hold hands and sing, like now, maybe?
On January 22 2011 03:25 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I'm confused you say that somehow minigun was more prepared than Ret when Minigun didn't even know he was playing until he was told about the substitution? But the point is you're talking about how precedents were set and yet the rule was not posted anywhere. By saying that it was discussed and agreed that the switch would be OK if they were the same race what about in the case that the team has no more of that same race as ROOT did?
You keep bringing up the qxc issue but it has been specifically apologized for multiple times in this thread and it sounds like in private as well. I guess we define professional different if you're going to latch onto that mistake and say it makes them unprofessional. Mistakes happen in my opinion it depends on how you deal with it afterward that defines professionalism.
edit: basically my point is save yourself some trouble and sit down and figure out all the possibilities for substitutions write rules for them and POST them. SO that if this happens again you can point to the rules and tell the team they're not allowed to do that.
I'm not saying Minigun knew in advance, I'm saying if this is allowed it sets up an unfair situation. If you don't have a good sub, you forfeit the game... Know an easy way to solve this? Don't put someone in a lineup who can't come to the match... seems to be a pretty simple solution. Or if you know he can't come, put him in the rescheduled match vs TLO instead of Drewbie (who's perfectly capable at playing in American hours since he lives in NA)?
What does posting the rules have to do with anything. Believe it or not, I emailed rules to every team manager, and they all agreed to the set of rules. There weren't specific sub rules written, although as I said before, and I don't know why you keep dodging this point -- the precedent was set in this match specifically earlier that day
On January 21 2011 15:59 BrahCJ wrote: By airing the dirty laundry, I feel the spotlight is unfairly shifted off of our winners, TL.
I also feel it's a sign of unprofessionalism from the organizers, who couldn't seem to get onto the same page as each other. I feel like if the 24 hour lineup submissions were followed, rather than trying to bend the rules to suit either party, this wouldn't have happened. I also think it's best for all involved that admins delete all this mungo jumbo, and get this thread back to a celebration for our rightful winners!
In the ESports scene, bad blood can spawn too quickly. My opinions only.
I respect your opinions. Sorry if you think it's our fault as the organizers. The teams gave us their lineups. If they sub at the last second I'm not precisely sure how you think we can predict that. Those that have suggested that we come up with rules governing substitutions are correct, we need to do something for that the next time around so it doesn't happen.
In this case it didn't affect the overall outcome. Though we'll never know if Ret would have won if QXC had played as scheduled, we do know that TL ultimately and easily prevailed in this matchup. It was a very well-played group of matches last night and I'm excited as all hell to be part of the team bringing it to you and can't wait for Saturday and Sunday's matchups, as well as future weeks of the GCPL. But to your last point, if people want to get all wrapped around the axle on the whole substitution issue, well, all I can say is you're missing the bigger picture which is that GCPL provides top names competing against each other for a relatively large cash prize and that the competition so far has been a blast to watch.
On January 21 2011 15:59 BrahCJ wrote: By airing the dirty laundry, I feel the spotlight is unfairly shifted off of our winners, TL.
I also feel it's a sign of unprofessionalism from the organizers, who couldn't seem to get onto the same page as each other. I feel like if the 24 hour lineup submissions were followed, rather than trying to bend the rules to suit either party, this wouldn't have happened. I also think it's best for all involved that admins delete all this mungo jumbo, and get this thread back to a celebration for our rightful winners!
In the ESports scene, bad blood can spawn too quickly. My opinions only.
I respect your opinions. Sorry if you think it's our fault as the organizers. The teams gave us their lineups. If they sub at the last second I'm not precisely sure how you think we can predict that. Those that have suggested that we come up with rules governing substitutions are correct, we need to do something for that the next time around so it doesn't happen.
In this case it didn't affect the overall outcome. Though we'll never know if Ret would have won if QXC had played as scheduled, we do know that TL ultimately and easily prevailed in this matchup. It was a very well-played group of matches last night and I'm excited as all hell to be part of the team bringing it to you and can't wait for Saturday and Sunday's matchups, as well as future weeks of the GCPL. But to your last point, if people want to get all wrapped around the axle on the whole substitution issue, well, all I can say is you're missing the bigger picture which is that GCPL provides top names competing against each other for a relatively large cash prize and that the competition so far has been a blast to watch.
OK I said last post was my last post, I take it back. I agree OCsurfeR and it's a great thing that GC is doing for the community, bringing these high level matchups with great casters. I understand when frustrated, people can post stuff in the heat of the moment, but all this extraneous stuff could have been avoided if Duran hadn't made that first post. Now people are posting and talking about this when they could be focusing on the next matchup. So thanks to the fans for tuning in, GC for putting on a great league, TL for understanding, good luck to all teams, and Duran you're doing a good job putting this tournament together. Now who's excited for Fnatic EG?!
On January 22 2011 10:46 Froadac wrote: Are there any non justintv vods? MY internet is bad enough it makes watching the vods on justin tv fairly unfeasible.
FYI you can pause the VOD to let the buffer catch up. Also, we've spoken to Justin.tv about this and they're aware of the issue and are looking at some solutions, including offering lower resolution VODs.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gosucoaching.com/sites/default/files/resize/imagecache/standardpage_large/Web-Overlay_1-565x202.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/32.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/57.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/eu.gif)
Liquid vs ![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/ca.gif)
ROOT
Liquid`Ret <Xel Naga> 
ROOTQxc
Liquid`TLO <Metalopolis> 
ROOTKiWiKaKi![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2a8romg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/2dvsjvc.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +
?? 
What possible Aces do both teams have? All I can think of right now is HuK/Nony for TL and CatZ for ROOT
Liquid`Ret <Xel Naga> 
ROOTQxc
Liquid`TLO <Metalopolis> ROOTdrewbie
ROOTKiWiKaKi
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/nl.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/us.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/se.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ca.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/de.png)
![[image loading]](http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/7951/original/temprate.jpg?1249943005)
