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.[GCPL] Liquid vs Root - Page 18
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT. But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments... | ||
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
On January 21 2011 15:41 Tatari wrote: Wow, this is gonna be one interesting clanwar~ I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT. But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments... Dude, the clanwar is over already... | ||
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BrahCJ
Australia659 Posts
I also feel it's a sign of unprofessionalism from the organizers, who couldn't seem to get onto the same page as each other. I feel like if the 24 hour lineup submissions were followed, rather than trying to bend the rules to suit either party, this wouldn't have happened. I also think it's best for all involved that admins delete all this mungo jumbo, and get this thread back to a celebration for our rightful winners! In the ESports scene, bad blood can spawn too quickly. My opinions only. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On January 21 2011 15:41 Tatari wrote: Wow, this is gonna be one interesting clanwar~ I'm thinking 3-1 for Liquid, even though I like ROOT. But is it really safe for TLO to pick random for a clanwar like this? It could go badly for him if he picks Protoss since he said he didn't get good results with the race in tournaments... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/7951/original/temprate.jpg?1249943005) User was warned for this post | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
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Ryusei-R1
United States2106 Posts
OH WELL CatZ VS Jinro was entertaining, but disappointing. | ||
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
You were trying to suggest Tatari is socially awkward? Mean. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
But as far as I can see I can't find any rules regarding substitutions anywhere to base your claim of an illegal substitution by ROOT. Nothing on gosucoaching.com nothing on the main thread on TL, so basically the only basis for you saying this is an illegal substitution is right here on the thread not even for the event as a whole saying. Next, Root asks to sub out Slush, Liquid agrees with a same-race sub which sets the precedent (plus the logical conclusion) that same-race subbing is OK and fair... cross-race subbing is obviously not. Did you tell them this? Are you sure everyone shared the same "logical conclusion?" I've never hard of such a rule in a clan war ever. It sounds like you didn't actually tell them this and such decisions really should be made and posted in the rules ahead of time not made partway through the event then posted in a manner that is calling the team who substituted unprofessional. I'd be fine with your post if you had left out the accusations of unprofessional-ism because then it would be like you were saying this new rule was in effect. But basically you're telling us after the fact that something was illegal, saying a team was unprofessional for doing it and not backing yourself up with where this was posted as being illegal. It's a money tournament without clear substitution rules if a team like ROOT needed to make a substitution which by the claims of their managers it sounds like they would have had to give a FFW on that game... Then why are they not allowed to substitute in a player, also consider that with drewbie already playing TLO and qxc being subbed out they have no more terran players in their lineup so you're basically saying they had to take a FFW in either instance for a rule that sounds like you were forming during the event. So I"d be very careful about slinging accusations of unprofessionalism around Xeris. edit: For those who don't know in my 2+ year stay on iccup I was not only super admin of tournaments but also for the Clan Wars division so yes I do know how Clan Wars run and have a basis for making my claim of never hearing of a rule like that before. | ||
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coL.edward
United States86 Posts
On January 21 2011 15:30 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Clearly Xeris's post isn't an administrative or internal matter. It's a public statement. He explains that there was an illegal substitution that should not have been allowed and he explains the circumstances of it happening. And, consummate professional he is, he apologizes for letting it happen on his watch. Nothing is extraneous. Better to publicly admit the mistake and apologize with a full explanation than stay quiet and let people wonder about the integrity of the lineups. This is the last I'll say about this - with all due respect, there was no consummate professionalism in Xeris's post. He started out by saying "my predictions were correct lulz" and the post is laced with obvious bias. As I prefer to leave things internal, we've apologized to both Xeris and the TL guys for the obvious mixup in schedules. Although multiple players just recently went through very drastic living situation changes, we should have taken those into count. However, we'd expect that other teams would be mindful of our situation when scheduling (such as when we had Drewbie play TLO early to help accommodate his schedule). Again, I know we're all in this for the progression of eSports, so good luck to everyone the rest of the way, and hopefully there are no more scheduling snafus. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On January 22 2011 02:25 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @Xeris I'd be careful about this because part of what you said shouldn't be on a public forum, the other part if it was from the tournament organizer about the illegal substitutions I would understand if it was posted on the main thread as well and without the accusations of unprofessional-ism. But as far as I can see I can't find any rules regarding substitutions anywhere to base your claim of an illegal substitution by ROOT. Nothing on gosucoaching.com nothing on the main thread on TL, so basically the only basis for you saying this is an illegal substitution is right here on the thread not even for the event as a whole saying. Did you tell them this? Are you sure everyone shared the same "logical conclusion?" I've never hard of such a rule in a clan war ever. It sounds like you didn't actually tell them this and such decisions really should be made and posted in the rules ahead of time not made partway through the event then posted in a manner that is calling the team who substituted unprofessional. I'd be fine with your post if you had left out the accusations of unprofessional-ism because then it would be like you were saying this new rule was in effect. But basically you're telling us after the fact that something was illegal, saying a team was unprofessional for doing it and not backing yourself up with where this was posted as being illegal. It's a money tournament without clear substitution rules if a team like ROOT needed to make a substitution which by the claims of their managers it sounds like they would have had to give a FFW on that game... Then why are they not allowed to substitute in a player, also consider that with drewbie already playing TLO and qxc being subbed out they have no more terran players in their lineup so you're basically saying they had to take a FFW in either instance for a rule that sounds like you were forming during the event. So I"d be very careful about slinging accusations of unprofessionalism around Xeris. edit: For those who don't know in my 2+ year stay on iccup I was not only super admin of tournaments but also for the Clan Wars division so yes I do know how Clan Wars run and have a basis for making my claim of never hearing of a rule like that before. There's a big difference between a league like this and a league like ICCUP CL. In BW leagues such as ICCUP CL where lineups are announced AT the time of the CW, there is only map preparation, not matchup preparation. In this league where lineups are announced beforehand - players have time to prepare for the map and matchup. If you can't see how it is unfair to cross-race sub then I don't know what to tell you. If Ret spent his time practicing ZvT on Metalopolis only to end up having to face a Protoss, can you not see how that's unfair, especially when the other team knows there is a Zerg opponent on that map. So you can have a situation in which one team is prepared, and the other is not. Imagine if Liquid had lost the match, then there would be a big drama about how Root won with an unfair advantage because Ret was forced to play in an awkward position. This substitution precedent was set in previous week's CW's, and was even set in this particular match, when Root and Liquid discussed switching Slush for CatZ - it was agreed by both that substitutions would be OK if they were the same race (which is why I mentioned it in the first place). It also doesn't change the fact that a player was knowingly scheduled to play at a time that was impossible for him. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
You keep bringing up the qxc issue but it has been specifically apologized for multiple times in this thread and it sounds like in private as well. I guess we define professional different if you're going to latch onto that mistake and say it makes them unprofessional. Mistakes happen in my opinion it depends on how you deal with it afterward that defines professionalism. edit: basically my point is save yourself some trouble and sit down and figure out all the possibilities for substitutions write rules for them and POST them. SO that if this happens again you can point to the rules and tell the team they're not allowed to do that. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
now naz and teamliquid were probably hesitantly ok with the substitution, but i expect very annoyed by it. but that's just how they are because they are badasses and they want to play the games. it's clearly not fair at all, and it's the fault of ROOT. life goes on, though. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On January 22 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: There's a big difference between a league like this and a league like ICCUP CL. In BW leagues such as ICCUP CL where lineups are announced AT the time of the CW, there is only map preparation, not matchup preparation. In this league where lineups are announced beforehand - players have time to prepare for the map and matchup. If you can't see how it is unfair to cross-race sub then I don't know what to tell you. If Ret spent his time practicing ZvT on Metalopolis only to end up having to face a Protoss, can you not see how that's unfair, especially when the other team knows there is a Zerg opponent on that map. So you can have a situation in which one team is prepared, and the other is not. Imagine if Liquid had lost the match, then there would be a big drama about how Root won with an unfair advantage because Ret was forced to play in an awkward position. This substitution precedent was set in previous week's CW's, and was even set in this particular match, when Root and Liquid discussed switching Slush for CatZ - it was agreed by both that substitutions would be OK if they were the same race (which is why I mentioned it in the first place). It also doesn't change the fact that a player was knowingly scheduled to play at a time that was impossible for him. just so you know, when I talked to Russalo, we offered Minigun to play Terran (his offrace) as a sign of good faith to avoid this sort of thing, Russ said he'd check with Ret, I also suggested: "we have X Y and Z ready to play, they can pick, OR we can just get a Forfeit loss" Russ said and I quote: " so minigun is ready? " I said: yes he is, he can play either P or T" Russ: ok lets do that then so maybe instead of continuing on with this you should talk to people on your end of things, its a shame you're not very happy with ROOT, but perhaps you should try to be a bit more professional, and when you say "lets hold hands and sing" or whatever, maybe you should set the example, the more you talk, the worse you'll look here, we're in the wrong, but so are you, Big Time! main difference is I am not posting for any other reason than defending myself and my team while you continue to attack. you say lets hold hands and sing, I say wash your hands after you take a dump, then we can hold hands and sing, like now, maybe? | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On January 22 2011 03:25 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I'm confused you say that somehow minigun was more prepared than Ret when Minigun didn't even know he was playing until he was told about the substitution? But the point is you're talking about how precedents were set and yet the rule was not posted anywhere. By saying that it was discussed and agreed that the switch would be OK if they were the same race what about in the case that the team has no more of that same race as ROOT did? You keep bringing up the qxc issue but it has been specifically apologized for multiple times in this thread and it sounds like in private as well. I guess we define professional different if you're going to latch onto that mistake and say it makes them unprofessional. Mistakes happen in my opinion it depends on how you deal with it afterward that defines professionalism. edit: basically my point is save yourself some trouble and sit down and figure out all the possibilities for substitutions write rules for them and POST them. SO that if this happens again you can point to the rules and tell the team they're not allowed to do that. I'm not saying Minigun knew in advance, I'm saying if this is allowed it sets up an unfair situation. If you don't have a good sub, you forfeit the game... Know an easy way to solve this? Don't put someone in a lineup who can't come to the match... seems to be a pretty simple solution. Or if you know he can't come, put him in the rescheduled match vs TLO instead of Drewbie (who's perfectly capable at playing in American hours since he lives in NA)? What does posting the rules have to do with anything. Believe it or not, I emailed rules to every team manager, and they all agreed to the set of rules. There weren't specific sub rules written, although as I said before, and I don't know why you keep dodging this point -- the precedent was set in this match specifically earlier that day | ||
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OCsurfeR
United States195 Posts
On January 21 2011 15:59 BrahCJ wrote: By airing the dirty laundry, I feel the spotlight is unfairly shifted off of our winners, TL. I also feel it's a sign of unprofessionalism from the organizers, who couldn't seem to get onto the same page as each other. I feel like if the 24 hour lineup submissions were followed, rather than trying to bend the rules to suit either party, this wouldn't have happened. I also think it's best for all involved that admins delete all this mungo jumbo, and get this thread back to a celebration for our rightful winners! In the ESports scene, bad blood can spawn too quickly. My opinions only. I respect your opinions. Sorry if you think it's our fault as the organizers. The teams gave us their lineups. If they sub at the last second I'm not precisely sure how you think we can predict that. Those that have suggested that we come up with rules governing substitutions are correct, we need to do something for that the next time around so it doesn't happen. In this case it didn't affect the overall outcome. Though we'll never know if Ret would have won if QXC had played as scheduled, we do know that TL ultimately and easily prevailed in this matchup. It was a very well-played group of matches last night and I'm excited as all hell to be part of the team bringing it to you and can't wait for Saturday and Sunday's matchups, as well as future weeks of the GCPL. But to your last point, if people want to get all wrapped around the axle on the whole substitution issue, well, all I can say is you're missing the bigger picture which is that GCPL provides top names competing against each other for a relatively large cash prize and that the competition so far has been a blast to watch. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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coL.edward
United States86 Posts
On January 22 2011 03:54 OCsurfeR wrote: I respect your opinions. Sorry if you think it's our fault as the organizers. The teams gave us their lineups. If they sub at the last second I'm not precisely sure how you think we can predict that. Those that have suggested that we come up with rules governing substitutions are correct, we need to do something for that the next time around so it doesn't happen. In this case it didn't affect the overall outcome. Though we'll never know if Ret would have won if QXC had played as scheduled, we do know that TL ultimately and easily prevailed in this matchup. It was a very well-played group of matches last night and I'm excited as all hell to be part of the team bringing it to you and can't wait for Saturday and Sunday's matchups, as well as future weeks of the GCPL. But to your last point, if people want to get all wrapped around the axle on the whole substitution issue, well, all I can say is you're missing the bigger picture which is that GCPL provides top names competing against each other for a relatively large cash prize and that the competition so far has been a blast to watch. OK I said last post was my last post, I take it back. I agree OCsurfeR and it's a great thing that GC is doing for the community, bringing these high level matchups with great casters. I understand when frustrated, people can post stuff in the heat of the moment, but all this extraneous stuff could have been avoided if Duran hadn't made that first post. Now people are posting and talking about this when they could be focusing on the next matchup. So thanks to the fans for tuning in, GC for putting on a great league, TL for understanding, good luck to all teams, and Duran you're doing a good job putting this tournament together. Now who's excited for Fnatic EG?! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186498 | ||
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