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On November 27 2010 20:25 gnutz wrote:
It's bad that nowadays every tournament thread is crying about imbalances. Of Terran mostly.
I wonder why?
Well, there are probably still some issues with the game, and you're on a forum full of people who take their video games extremely seriously. So I guess it's to be expected.
On November 27 2010 20:28 Holgerius wrote:
How is this a big issue? How often do we see 24 kill Hellions?
I'm sure someone will say once is too often.
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On November 27 2010 20:30 Holgerius wrote:
Fuck, I totally get why people have been complaining about SC2 LR-threads now. -__-
Hehe, you would be used to it if you were from the Wc3 scene. Whining after every match 
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yea because 1banshee and 2 hellions is unstoppable imbalanced force supposed to kill 30 probes ....
people are retarded
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On November 27 2010 20:32 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:30 Holgerius wrote:
Fuck, I totally get why people have been complaining about SC2 LR-threads now. -__- Hehe, you would be used to it if you were from the Wc3 scene. Whining after every match
I never paid attention to WC3 but aren't there still some balance issues with it now? That's what I gathered from some of the complaints, anyway. People were saying that there needed to be a patch but Blizzard abandoned the game.
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On November 27 2010 20:31 OTIX wrote:
This QL game is fantastic and the commentators sound like they're watching paint dry...
Yeah the commentators from IEM quake were so much better, I wish they flew those guys over.
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On November 27 2010 20:31 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:18 PredY wrote:On November 27 2010 20:16 bokeevboke wrote:On November 27 2010 20:12 PredY wrote:
if this was a BW and it was reaver drop that killed 30 scvs people would be all over moon with 10 pages of "OOOOH" and said the player made great drop there and the other big mistake but these days its all balance when clearly it was a MISTAKE by nony
god, dark times t-t maybe because reavers are slow as hell and very expensive, plus they need a shuttle and good amount of micro. its awful to watch hellions no matter what, reavers did wow moments because they were fucking difficult too pull off. clearly you don't understand me. ok then. how about a mine in the mineral line killing 30 probes? teh same thing. guess what. balance? well... yes if you put it like that? One of the questions i originally posed was where is an equivalent of this freerolling in other races. Also, take into account actions it takes to do that- get into the mineral line(which strikes me was much harder in SCBW), plant a mine, wait for your opponent to walk into it. Shuttle the reaver in. Drop a scarab. Hope the scarab goes off. 3 steps. 3 chances for opponent to avoid the mistake. hellions? 1) get into the mineral line.
yeah get harder into mineral line in bw was because the maps were better (hello blizzard) and because players made pylon walls, on destination you had pylon wall in one of the bridges for example etc. also hellions take a bit of a skill too if you are under fire and you have 1 shot each and you need to line them up perfectly to get as many probes as possible.
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have any games been played yet?
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On November 27 2010 20:29 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:02 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 27 2010 19:46 G.s)NarutO wrote:On November 27 2010 19:45 Sfydjklm wrote:
hellions need a nerf:X
this is annoying that 2 shots from 2 units that cost as much as a zealot can completely break otherwise even games. You realise that it was a huge mistake by NonY but not imbalance? Clustering up all probes against blue-flame hellions - come on. All respect for NonY, but no one but him to blame for this huge mistake / probe loss. ... preventable=/= balanced. name me one equally easily made terran mistake that would equal in consequences. You misuse one scan vs DTs = you lose the game. You fuck up a wall in vs a 6pool = you lose the game you don't scout a couple of burrowed banelings = you lose 20 marines you mismicro vs high templar = you lose your army you siege/unsiege your tanks at a bad time = you lose all your tanks etc... etc... I honestly can't believe people are whining about imba hellions because of this one game.
no, no and no, nothing compares as i describe in my previous post.
ill just go with "the amount of steps required to execute an action gives your opponent more cchances to respond and correct his mistakes" and skip all the point by point explanation why all your examples wouldnt be in the same ballpark even if they did only incorporate one step.
here's a taste: 2 dt's one shotting 16 scvs.
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On November 27 2010 20:31 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:18 PredY wrote:On November 27 2010 20:16 bokeevboke wrote:On November 27 2010 20:12 PredY wrote:
if this was a BW and it was reaver drop that killed 30 scvs people would be all over moon with 10 pages of "OOOOH" and said the player made great drop there and the other big mistake but these days its all balance when clearly it was a MISTAKE by nony
god, dark times t-t maybe because reavers are slow as hell and very expensive, plus they need a shuttle and good amount of micro. its awful to watch hellions no matter what, reavers did wow moments because they were fucking difficult too pull off. clearly you don't understand me. ok then. how about a mine in the mineral line killing 30 probes? teh same thing. guess what. balance? well... yes if you put it like that? One of the questions i originally posed was where is an equivalent of this freerolling in other races. Also, take into account actions it takes to do that- get into the mineral line(which strikes me was much harder in SCBW), plant a mine, wait for your opponent to walk into it. Shuttle the reaver in. Drop a scarab. Hope the scarab goes off. 3 steps. 3 chances for opponent to avoid the mistake. hellions? 1) get into the mineral line.
Because that's all he did, eh? A-moved hellions into a mineral line? It wasn't a two-fronted harassment that caused Nony to make a huge blunder and unneccesarily stack up all his probes, was it?
If this type of thing happens each and every game I could understand the whining, but seriously; how often do we see 24 kill Hellions? -__-
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Vultures was two shotting workers, but not in aoe :\
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On November 27 2010 20:25 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:09 Malinor wrote:On November 27 2010 20:02 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 27 2010 19:46 G.s)NarutO wrote:On November 27 2010 19:45 Sfydjklm wrote:
hellions need a nerf:X
this is annoying that 2 shots from 2 units that cost as much as a zealot can completely break otherwise even games. You realise that it was a huge mistake by NonY but not imbalance? Clustering up all probes against blue-flame hellions - come on. All respect for NonY, but no one but him to blame for this huge mistake / probe loss. ... preventable=/= balanced. name me one equally easily made terran mistake that would equal in consequences. And there is also the consideration of the fact that this is a unit simply too volatile and/or luck based to be a part of competitive gaming. You can easily lose 30 scvs really fast when you clump them under storms or colossus fire. Of course these are higher tech units than Helions, but still. And beside that, maybe you should focus on the fact that these Helions got several shots of, that Tyler decided to attack them with all his probes back in his mineral line, instead of continuing to move them away and split them. That he had only left 1 stalker behind his none-pylon-wall on the side and none at his expo. That he A-moved a 50supply army to kill one Banshee. Tyler made a series of mistakes that lead to this disaster. He can blame noone here but himself, and it surely has not anything to do with imbalance. storms or collosus are like storms and reavers pretty much. Hellions are vultures with ability to two shot millions of scvs. They did get several shots off and in my opinion that highlights the root of the problem- the fact that nomatter what position theyre in they can at any second two shot your whole probe line if the (stars) workers align right, making it, while partially a move of skill, mostly a move of luck.
Well, I disagree, but you surely have a point. Personally, I don't see a huge problem with Helions, they have quiet specific roles and are defendable in my opinion. They will always get some kills, but well, that's their job. There is stuff that annoys me more in PvT.
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Holgerius, PredY - give it up. Non - Broodwar players won't understand. Or at least that Sfydjklm was a troll in Broodwar already. Everything thats strong when executed properly is imbalanced.
Edit: As a Terran: Learn to split your probes, because when I complain about how hard it is to split marines against banelings you call me a faggot. -__-
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On November 27 2010 20:35 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:31 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 27 2010 20:18 PredY wrote:On November 27 2010 20:16 bokeevboke wrote:On November 27 2010 20:12 PredY wrote:
if this was a BW and it was reaver drop that killed 30 scvs people would be all over moon with 10 pages of "OOOOH" and said the player made great drop there and the other big mistake but these days its all balance when clearly it was a MISTAKE by nony
god, dark times t-t maybe because reavers are slow as hell and very expensive, plus they need a shuttle and good amount of micro. its awful to watch hellions no matter what, reavers did wow moments because they were fucking difficult too pull off. clearly you don't understand me. ok then. how about a mine in the mineral line killing 30 probes? teh same thing. guess what. balance? well... yes if you put it like that? One of the questions i originally posed was where is an equivalent of this freerolling in other races. Also, take into account actions it takes to do that- get into the mineral line(which strikes me was much harder in SCBW), plant a mine, wait for your opponent to walk into it. Shuttle the reaver in. Drop a scarab. Hope the scarab goes off. 3 steps. 3 chances for opponent to avoid the mistake. hellions? 1) get into the mineral line. Because that's all he did, eh? A-moved hellions into a mineral line? It wasn't a two-fronted harassment that caused Nony to make a huge blunder and unneccesarily stack up all his probes, was it? If this type of thing happens each and every game I could understand the whining, but seriously; how often do we see 24 kill Hellions? -__-
it's irrelevant, it takes equal amount of effort for any race to get into the mineral line. It's the actions that follow that are of an importance.
My whining is exactly because it doesn't happen every game. This is an action that is mostly based on luck.
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if you ask me, i'd have vultures with mines over hellions ANY day. i'll tell you a little story, i've been playing with some protosses recently practise games (adel, runa, bischu etc) and i used to rape them everytime i did hellion drops and hellion runbys, but they actually started to learn and started to make pylon walls and building blocks and i couldnt do anything and then hellions are fucking useless. give me vultures and mines
my last post concerning this ^^. naruto is right. i know it's hard to split workers (or marines) because i rarely do well in tvt against blueflame hellion myself
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On November 27 2010 20:35 Devolved wrote:
have any games been played yet?
Ye al Quarterfinals for sure
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On November 27 2010 20:37 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Holgerius, PredY - give it up. Non - Broodwar players won't understand. Or at least that Sfydjklm was a troll in Broodwar already. Everything thats strong when executed properly is imbalanced.
Edit: As a Terran: Learn to split your probes, because when I complain about how hard it is to split marines against banelings you call me a faggot. -__-
You're right. I'm out of here. ^__^
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On November 27 2010 20:38 PredY wrote:
if you ask me, i'd have vultures with mines over hellions ANY day. i'll tell you a little story, i've been playing with some protosses recently practise games (adel, runa, bischu etc) and i used to rape them everytime i did hellion drops and hellion runbys, but they actually started to learn and started to make pylon walls and building blocks and i couldnt do anything and then hellions are fucking useless. give me vultures and mines
To be honest - if you open up blue flame hellion drop and you don't do decent amounts of damage (especially against fast expansion) you are pretty much dead.
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On November 27 2010 20:38 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:35 Holgerius wrote:On November 27 2010 20:31 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 27 2010 20:18 PredY wrote:On November 27 2010 20:16 bokeevboke wrote:On November 27 2010 20:12 PredY wrote:
if this was a BW and it was reaver drop that killed 30 scvs people would be all over moon with 10 pages of "OOOOH" and said the player made great drop there and the other big mistake but these days its all balance when clearly it was a MISTAKE by nony
god, dark times t-t maybe because reavers are slow as hell and very expensive, plus they need a shuttle and good amount of micro. its awful to watch hellions no matter what, reavers did wow moments because they were fucking difficult too pull off. clearly you don't understand me. ok then. how about a mine in the mineral line killing 30 probes? teh same thing. guess what. balance? well... yes if you put it like that? One of the questions i originally posed was where is an equivalent of this freerolling in other races. Also, take into account actions it takes to do that- get into the mineral line(which strikes me was much harder in SCBW), plant a mine, wait for your opponent to walk into it. Shuttle the reaver in. Drop a scarab. Hope the scarab goes off. 3 steps. 3 chances for opponent to avoid the mistake. hellions? 1) get into the mineral line. Because that's all he did, eh? A-moved hellions into a mineral line? It wasn't a two-fronted harassment that caused Nony to make a huge blunder and unneccesarily stack up all his probes, was it? If this type of thing happens each and every game I could understand the whining, but seriously; how often do we see 24 kill Hellions? -__- it's irrelevant, it takes equal amount of effort for any race to get into the mineral line. It's the actions that follow that are of an importance. My whining is exactly because it doesn't happen every game. This is an action that is mostly based on luck.
I want to emphasize again that Tyler voluntarily ran his probes back into his natural mineral line and away from his army, which would have taken care of the Helions, and he would have lost probably around 10 probes total and not 30. Imo, it was a gigantic blunder by Tyler.
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I'm pretty sure the main problem people would have with Hellions is that you basically can't run your workers from them because they'll just die faster that way, and they're extremely unforgiving, whereas they are a miniscule investment for the Terran and it's almost impossible to not be cost-efficient with them.
But yeah I'd say that that's debatable, I'm sure many Protoss players felt that way about Vultures in SCBW. Give it some time until the Protoss players learn to wall themselves in and position their buildings to take account for Hellion harrass in every game. Yeah, it sucks having to set your buildings up in order to deal with the Hellions, but it still is something we'll most likely see them having to do.
Getting a quick forge for fast cannons and upgrades also isn't as bad as people say at least in theory, it's just that it's pretty easy to outright die with that kind of an investment in static defense against harrass. Especially with the strenght of the early game Terran army, Protoss is going to need every unit possible.
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On November 27 2010 20:35 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 20:29 Wargizmo wrote:On November 27 2010 20:02 Sfydjklm wrote:On November 27 2010 19:46 G.s)NarutO wrote:On November 27 2010 19:45 Sfydjklm wrote:
hellions need a nerf:X
this is annoying that 2 shots from 2 units that cost as much as a zealot can completely break otherwise even games. You realise that it was a huge mistake by NonY but not imbalance? Clustering up all probes against blue-flame hellions - come on. All respect for NonY, but no one but him to blame for this huge mistake / probe loss. ... preventable=/= balanced. name me one equally easily made terran mistake that would equal in consequences. You misuse one scan vs DTs = you lose the game. You fuck up a wall in vs a 6pool = you lose the game you don't scout a couple of burrowed banelings = you lose 20 marines you mismicro vs high templar = you lose your army you siege/unsiege your tanks at a bad time = you lose all your tanks etc... etc... I honestly can't believe people are whining about imba hellions because of this one game. no, no and no, nothing compares as i describe in my previous post. ill just go with "the amount of steps required to execute an action gives your opponent more cchances to respond and correct his mistakes" and skip all the point by point explanation why all your examples wouldnt be in the same ballpark even if they did only incorporate one step. here's a taste: 2 dt's one shotting 16 scvs.
If you don't kill the DT with a scan and you don't have another scan then you'll lose 16 SCVs to that DT, or at least something else just as valuable. Banelings can also blow up SCVs just as bad as hellions, as can Templars - how do you think Tylers clumped 40 clumped up probes would have done against a storm, or a couple of banelings, or a colossus.
I haven't even gone in to forcefield and how one forcefield on a ramp can block your entire army off from defending an expansion causing you to lose every single SCV there. There are literally hundreds of ways that one mistake can lose you the game.
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EPT
