The less people cheese (and/or the better they become at defending it) the more the game moves towards economy centered openings. Cheese, quite simply put, keeps people honest. The game would quickly become boring if there was no risk of anyone ever cheesing.

qtpie

Canada16 Posts

September 20 2010 13:50 GMT

#2866

i actually don't particularly support TLO or hate him, but in the first game, the back and forth between their lines got me excited and interested in what might happen next as the slightest shift in balance will allow the other player to push foward, as well as action happening on multiple fronts meaning that both players must micro well, and i find their ability to continuously macro while having nonstop tiny engagements to be very impressive.

the third game was kind of a let down for me, not because TLO lost, but because the method by which he lost.

A proxy 7 rax is the kind of cheese I believe to be one decided at the toss of a coin. Had it been scouted i am sure it could've been stopped by an able player.

Of course, not checking the mineral line is tlo's own fault and scouting the position last is lucky for dub, but from an observer's point of view that 7 rax build requires little to no skill.

From a strategy point of view, a strategy that relies on your opponent doing something wrong and having perfect luck in random things such as spawning position or how the enemy scouts is, in my opinion, not a good or viable strategy.

As a person who watches these matches for the interesting plays, this kind of strategic execution is some what of a disappointment.

Considering how able both players were, there was no macro going on in the third game, there was no micro (balled up marine that isn't moving doesn't take that much microing I don't think), no such thing as unit composition, and he wasn't even brave enough to pull all SCVs in for a ballsy all in so the manliness factor doesn't come into play either.

All points considered I don't see why that particular game can be considered well played.

[edit] I don't consider all cheeses to require no skill, it's just that a few marines balled up standing there killing stuff isn't too particularly skill intensive...

Fa1nT

United States3423 Posts

September 20 2010 13:51 GMT

#2867

It's always the same cheese though =(

6pool, proxy hatch (so weak people never use it..), 2 gate, 2 proxy barracks, void rush

syldiivh

Denmark190 Posts

September 20 2010 13:51 GMT

#2868

And no, it isn't a 25% success rate proxy, well it would be more reasonable to call it 33%, but it ain't that either. Hyperdub would adjust his build depending on how fast he scout's TLO.

True, my point was just that TLO made him self vuln to this all in. Different depot placement would have helped him alot at the cost of a small risk of loosing it to siege later? Dunno imo thats a fair trade to not instant loose to this all in.

edit: also if depot close to ramp + cross scout. Would almost eliminate any proxy build on tvt meta.

st3roids

Greece538 Posts

September 20 2010 13:52 GMT

#2869

A better scouting pattern and would have been a win you should expect everything its not like none ever did that before.

Tlo did cheese so many times in other games - do u seriously forget the 2 marine - marauder - hellion pushes ?

Or the mass helions allins vs zergs or reaper harass vs zerg and so on ? He even pull the 2 proxy raks in dimaga - gimme a break is a valid strat.

Im european as well but koreans are so much better in sc2 atm.

also its not like david vs nexgenius - hyper won fair and square in macro game and was better in game 1 for he most part.

Also cheese vs terran isnt the same like cheese vs a zerg player now is it ? ;p

Garnet

Vietnam9021 Posts

September 20 2010 13:54 GMT

#2870

imagine if TLO was the cheeser instead of hyperduck.

st3roids

Greece538 Posts

September 20 2010 13:56 GMT

#2871

On September 20 2010 22:54 Garnet wrote:
imagine if TLO was the cheeser instead of hyperduck.

Creative ? ;p

no doubht hell be back as better player he didnt even have time to practise

corpsepose

1678 Posts

September 20 2010 13:57 GMT

#2872

On September 20 2010 22:54 Garnet wrote:
imagine if TLO was the cheeser instead of hyperduck.

i like 'hypernub' better, as suggested by a guy on the restream i was watching

Special Endrey

Germany1929 Posts

September 20 2010 13:58 GMT

#2873

thats the way it goes - gz to hyperdub - in my opinion TLO lost the series in the 2nd game - he played a little bit TOO cutsy like and wasted a little to much units every 1-2 minutes so at the end hyperdub just had more stuff

teh 3rd game is like normale cheese game - high risk high reward - it could have gone both ways - unfortunately TLO scouted the wrong direction 1st - and lost because of that

Veldril

Thailand1817 Posts

September 20 2010 13:59 GMT

#2874

I think people who call cheese unfair; or bash player's ability because he uses cheese should read this article.

Playing to Win Part 1 by Sirlin
Playing to Win Part 2 by Sirlin

In a tournament like this, playing to win should always be a top priority of every player (or else why being a pro?) If you think cheesing would help you win easier, then just do it. It's not only for the winning sake, but it's for improving their own skill (at least micro) and judgment (should I pull cheese off this game). As long as it abide the rule, it's perfectly fine.

Jyvblamo

Canada13788 Posts

September 20 2010 14:00 GMT

#2875

Aw, just came back from class to hear the results. Sucks for TLO fans, and SC2 fans in general, but there's a GSL every month so we'll be seeing TLO again very soon.

Fa1nT

United States3423 Posts

September 20 2010 14:01 GMT

#2876

Contracting chicken pox and sneezing all over your opponent isn't against the rules is it? xD

n3gative

Canada369 Posts

September 20 2010 14:05 GMT

#2877

so much crying here. TLO lost fair and square.

It was an entertaining series, congrats to Hyperdub.

nasze_zrodlo

Cape Verde111 Posts

September 20 2010 14:06 GMT

#2878

We love you Hyperdub. You proved that korean C teamer is much better than the best foreign pro :D

shawabawa

United Kingdom417 Posts

September 20 2010 14:08 GMT

#2879

Can someone transcript the TLO interview? Video isn't working for me

http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/gomcam/1119

KuroN3ko

Malaysia154 Posts

September 20 2010 14:08 GMT

#2880

TLO: "I opted for nukes cause I was fucking desperate." Sums up the match in a nutshell :p, hyperdub played well, TLO played well, the better player on that day won. Congrats to all the winners, and for those in defeat.. theres always the next GSL