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Hi Teamliquid!
This is a strategy that I want to eventually make a guide on if it proves viable. Be warned though, my current skill level is mid-high diamond, so this strategy may not necessarily be viable at higher levels. Essentially, there are some new changes coming to sc2 detailed here. One of these involves protoss getting their old cronoboost back, which results in the potential for a fast warp gate timing!
Strategy
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The strategy involves going for the fastest possible warp gate off of 3 gates to pressure the opponent.
In order to get extremely fast warp gate, the build cuts probes for ~25 seconds at the start of the game, and spends all of the early game cronoboost on warp gate.
This means that you lose ~2 probes at the start of the game, which means you miss out on almost 400 minerals by the 5 minute mark (compared to a standard, fast expand play).
Essentially, the build trades some early game economy (~240 minerals worth) for the option to do the fastest warp gate aggression possible
Upon arriving at the opponents base, you can decide to either commit hard to aggression or simply expand and transition into the mid game (although, you will be a bit behind if you do no damage and let your opponent have an expansion).
Rough Build Order
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12 pylon (basically do not make any probes and make a pylon ASAP)
13 gateway (you cut the 14th probe to make this)
13 gas (you cut the 14th probe to make this)
------------ from here on out, constant probe production---------------------
17 cybernetics core (as soon as first gateway is done)
17 gateway#2 (after cybernetics core)
18 pylon#2 -> send probe that builds this out so u can proxy pylon 3
20 warp gate research (cronoboost it ASAP, you will spend 3 cronos on it)
20 stalker (right after you research warp gate)
25 stalker#2
26 pylon#3 (proxied, if possible)
27 Gateway#3
27 stalker#3
30 stalker#4 (stalkers 3&4 will be rallied to your mineral line for defense)
From here, you may want to try and get some more proxy pylons up, perhaps 1 super close to the opponent and a another that is more hidden.
As soon as warp gate finishes, turn your gates into warp gates, and decide as to whether or not you want to commit to aggression.
Timings
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Since Protoss got their old cronoboost back, they can hit timings a bit faster than before (since you can now bank up cronoboost and use it all on a single structure). I decided I wanted to use this to see how fast I can get warp gate out.
Warp gate arrives @ ~3:15 (in game time).
Units are warped in @ ~3:33 (in game time, no proxy gates).
Depending on the location of your proxy pylon, this means that your attack can hit between 3:33-3:50 with up to 5 stalkers (2 of which were made previously, and 3 that are warped in).
Replays:
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Closing thoughts / ideas for discussion
I really like this build because it allows me to control the early game via aggression and not go all in at the same time. However, no strategy is perfect, and mine probably has more flaws than most.
I'd love to have some criticism of the build and figure out what it is really weak against and what situations create an "auto-lose" scenario. If possible, I plan on updating / tweaking the build to remove the "auto-lose" situations, and if thats not possible I'll scrap this build and try a new one!
So, I guess my real question for you is this - if you were playing against me and I was doing this build order, how would you react?
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Being terran I'll speak exclusively on PvT.
On the build itself: the main problem I see is how do you plan on dealing with mines ? (assuming mine drops are still a thing, I don't open like that and haven't really followed the pro scene lately)
On the strategy side: since your build starts from the start of the game, you have to do it blindly without relying on scouting info. I think that most terrans nowadays open with a 1-base build... So the probability to catch a greedy terran with his pants down is low. So why go with an aggressive build like that ? Not sure it really makes sense in the matchup.
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On September 07 2017 20:19 LoneYoShi wrote:
Being terran I'll speak exclusively on PvT.
On the build itself: the main problem I see is how do you plan on dealing with mines ? (assuming mine drops are still a thing, I don't open like that and haven't really followed the pro scene lately)
On the strategy side: since your build starts from the start of the game, you have to do it blindly without relying on scouting info. I think that most terrans nowadays open with a 1-base build... So the probability to catch a greedy terran with his pants down is low. So why go with an aggressive build like that ? Not sure it really makes sense in the matchup.
Hi loneyoshi!
In the new balance patch, window mines are now revealed after firing off a shot. As a result, you don't actually need detection to deal with them - simply sacrifice a unit and clean it up with your other units.
In the case that this change ends up being scrapped, I would have to make a forge and build cannons or get a robo will trying to minimize widow mine damage via micro.
The one thing to note is that its currently uncertain how the matchup will actually evolve once these changes go live. They are being tested right now. As a result, we don't know what the probability of "catching a greedy terran" actually is, yet.
The main reason I want to go for an aggressive build is the ability to control the pace of the early game. I also think its cool to have the option to either apply hard pressure to your opponent with a 3 gate attack, or simply expand (without warping in a bunch of units).
Either way, I do guess I would end up behind vs a defensive terran who expanded with bunkers, but would I end up so far behind to the point where the game is unwinnable?
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Yeah I'm sorry, I completely spaced out on the incoming balance changes. Scrap what I said... -_-
I understand you though, I prefer going aggressive when the game is fresh (new map pool, balance changes) to get control over the game. At least until I develop some kind of intuition, feel for the game (and the metagame), then I get back to fast expands and macro builds.
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An overlord will scout that you don't have an expansion around 3 minutes and zerg will spam zerglings. Not sure if the new stalkers fare any better against speedlings but I'm guessing they're probably even a bit worse with the increased overkill. On the other side the quickest possible stalker has a good chance of getting an early overlord kill making your attack more likely to succeed. 1 Base gateway allin has been out of the meta for a long time so I expect you'll find a lot of zergs going 3 hatch without speed.
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On September 09 2017 18:26 Saechiis wrote:
An overlord will scout that you don't have an expansion around 3 minutes and zerg will spam zerglings. Not sure if the new stalkers fare any better against speedlings but I'm guessing they're probably even a bit worse with the increased overkill. On the other side the quickest possible stalker has a good chance of getting an early overlord kill making your attack more likely to succeed. 1 Base gateway allin has been out of the meta for a long time so I expect you'll find a lot of zergs going 3 hatch without speed.
Yeah, I've straight up killed many zergs that don't go for a gas. However, against zergs that do open 3 hatch with speed, I've found that I'm able to kill their third expansion if I have good positioning with zealots / sentry on their mineral line.
However, even after I kill the third, they are still ahead of me - as they still have a second base and a superior drone count.
I almost always get overlord kills against zerg each game I play although I think I get put pretty far behind regardless. I may want to try a slight modification that only involves 2 gates in order to get a faster expansion to keep up economically. I think that I could still take down their third hatchery without a third gateway with good positioning.
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On September 07 2017 20:19 LoneYoShi wrote:
Being terran I'll speak exclusively on PvT.
On the build itself: the main problem I see is how do you plan on dealing with mines ? (assuming mine drops are still a thing, I don't open like that and haven't really followed the pro scene lately)
On the strategy side: since your build starts from the start of the game, you have to do it blindly without relying on scouting info. I think that most terrans nowadays open with a 1-base build... So the probability to catch a greedy terran with his pants down is low. So why go with an aggressive build like that ? Not sure it really makes sense in the matchup.
Hit the nail on the head there.
This build may certainly be more viable on the current Balance Test Map extension mod since Widow Mines are being nerfed to reveal themselves once detonating; thus no more detection required to hold them off. Just bait the detonation, warp in a Stalker or three and clean up.
Other than that, if you're trying to play vs Terran without a Stargate or Robotics Facility, you're gonna have a bad time.
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On September 10 2017 23:27 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:19 LoneYoShi wrote:
Being terran I'll speak exclusively on PvT.
On the build itself: the main problem I see is how do you plan on dealing with mines ? (assuming mine drops are still a thing, I don't open like that and haven't really followed the pro scene lately)
On the strategy side: since your build starts from the start of the game, you have to do it blindly without relying on scouting info. I think that most terrans nowadays open with a 1-base build... So the probability to catch a greedy terran with his pants down is low. So why go with an aggressive build like that ? Not sure it really makes sense in the matchup. Hit the nail on the head there. This build may certainly be more viable on the current Balance Test Map extension mod since Widow Mines are being nerfed to reveal themselves once detonating; thus no more detection required to hold them off. Just bait the detonation, warp in a Stalker or three and clean up. Other than that, if you're trying to play vs Terran without a Stargate or Robotics Facility, you're gonna have a bad time.
I agree, its very hard to play against a Terran opponent without some form of tech. However, just because I don't open with tech doesn't mean I don't plan to get it later on.
I do think you can survive vs terran with a delayed robotics facility (thrown down @ ~4mins). The other thing to note is that if you choose to not be aggressive with your warp ins, you can have your expansion placed by ~3:30.
So I guess the question then boils down to whether there is anything that terran can do to SIGNIFICANTLY abuse a late expansion and late tech resulting in a near unwinnable situation for protoss.
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Something like 25/31 times your build straight up dies to the 2 marauder +12 marine double-medivac drop off fast 1-base stim that I used to do when I played ladder (at your level, diamond). I did this build becasue basically I could cripple protoss and then macro faster - or just kill with 1 lib + 2 seige tanks in the 3rd medivac's ferry while massing sufficient bio & turrets at home to defend against what little protoss might do with a warp prism or dts or oracle to try a comeback. If you don't build fast imortals or phoenix, my build would kill yours, in the hands of evenly matched player skills on both sides. I guarantee it.
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The important point, though, is that you scout what the enemy does and react appropriately - either doubling down decisively or decisively switching to counter what's coming next. I could see your build being an OK build "in-the-bag" to pull out, for example, if the terran went fast 3cc.
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Also, important to note, I realized this WCS circuit that Neeb, more than his innate talent or hard-practiced skill, wins by understanding building placement perfectly.
At the diamond level, the best thing you can do is study the best protoss building placements & timings of when those buildings go down (Stats, Neeb, Classic, etc. {don't even pretend to study sOs}).
Once you do, you will realize why they only need a Mothership core and 1-2 cycles of warpin at home to deal with any attack while they themselves are active across the map.
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On September 12 2017 12:06 KR_4EVR wrote:
Also, important to note, I realized this WCS circuit that Neeb, more than his innate talent or hard-practiced skill, wins by understanding building placement perfectly.
At the diamond level, the best thing you can do is study the best protoss building placements & timings of when those buildings go down (Stats, Neeb, Classic, etc. {don't even pretend to study sOs}).
Once you do, you will realize why they only need a Mothership core and 1-2 cycles of warpin at home to deal with any attack while they themselves are active across the map.
Yeah, but the protoss mothership core will be removed in the new update - so I don't think its worth studying their current building placement as it will evolve fairly soon.
On a separate note, would you be willing to do a 1v1 match to test out the theory with your 1 base medivac push build? My battle tag is WAVES#1396
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cool. i'm curious how 12 pylon stacks up against 13 pylon as a z/p player who does a lot of silly aggro builds. ive noticed with 12 pylon your minerals really get slowed down to the point where it's difficult to even afford an assimilator. naturally your warpgate research will be a tick faster with 12 pylon, but do your production cycles actually hit any harder than they would with a 13 or 14 pylon? has anyone done intensive testing?
my suspicion is that starting a probe immediately and having more continuous probe production may allow your 1 base economy to fill out sooner, but without optimized testing i'm hesitant to make any assumptions. it might also have subtle effects on your ability to warp in zealots vs more gas heavy units
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On September 13 2017 05:26 brickrd wrote:
cool. i'm curious how 12 pylon stacks up against 13 pylon as a z/p player who does a lot of silly aggro builds. ive noticed with 12 pylon your minerals really get slowed down to the point where it's difficult to even afford an assimilator. naturally your warpgate research will be a tick faster with 12 pylon, but do your production cycles actually hit any harder than they would with a 13 or 14 pylon? has anyone done intensive testing?
my suspicion is that starting a probe immediately and having more continuous probe production may allow your 1 base economy to fill out sooner, but without optimized testing i'm hesitant to make any assumptions. it might also have subtle effects on your ability to warp in zealots vs more gas heavy units
I have done testing myself and this build is optimized for the fastest possible warp gate timing - (which gets your units warped in @ 3:33, with no proxy gateways). It is physically impossible to have warp gate research done any faster than ~3:15.
You are correct in that I can barely afford the assimilator, and that is also one of the reasons why I have to cut probes at 13 to get both the 13 gate and the 13 assimilator (the 13 asimilator is desperately needed in order to have 150 gas so you can warp in 3 stalkers when warp gate research is finished). However, as the build currently plays out, you cut probes only 2 times.
1. when you are making your first pylon
2. when you are trying to get your gateway and assimilator up
From this point on, the build supports constant probe production (which is one of the things that makes it a pressure play rather than an all in build).
At 3:33, you can have a maximum of 7 stalkers, (2 of which are at your base for defense).
With a 13 or 14 pylon, you can reach 7 stalkers as well, and have ALOT more spare minerals (as by cutting 2 probes early on I sacrifice ~80 minerals a minute worth of mining), but you will have your 7 stalkers out, 15-20 seconds later.
The other thing to note is that 15-20 seconds is actually a big deal, since normally, if you go 12 pylon, this is the timing that your opponent will not have warp gate (if they are doing a standard build) which will allow you to really be aggressive.
TLDR; 12 pylon does not allow your push to hit any harder than 13-14, but it does allow you to hit sooner, which is why I think that 12 pylon is superior for a warp gate rush build.
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EPT
