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The build Order for reference is a macro build order done on Dusk Towers.
VOD of game with commentary - Lotv TvZ #1 Flash/Jaedong vs Snute/Lilbow "A Greedy approach to Dusk Towers"
~~~~~~ Build Order ~~~~~~ + Show Spoiler +17cc 18 rax (@100% 1 marine --> reactor) 19 gas 20 gas 23 depot 23 x2 orbital 23 reactor factory (6 hellions -->@ 3 reactors) 28 cc 29 starport 31 x2 hellion 35 tech lab (switch onto starport) 37 depot 45 liberator (continuous production until medvacs)
The mid game follow up is a standard bio game, adding 2nd and 3rd rax --> 3rd and 4th gas --> x2 ebay --> 4th and 5th rax!
Discussion 1) What are potential strengths to this build?
2) What are potential weaknesses to this build?
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Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build.
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On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. so it makes it hard for zerg to know if its liberator or banshee. A smart zerg player has to assume it could possibly be banshees
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On November 19 2015 01:35 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. so it makes it hard for zerg to know if its liberator or banshee. A smart zerg player has to assume it could possibly be banshees
Oh ok but isnt the reaction kind of the same for both? Just spore/queen. Anyway I doubt I will ever play against a Zerg good or smart enough to scout for that detail, so I will just go for the faster second liberator.
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On November 19 2015 02:28 Aquila- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 01:35 EJK wrote:On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. so it makes it hard for zerg to know if its liberator or banshee. A smart zerg player has to assume it could possibly be banshees Oh ok but isnt the reaction kind of the same for both? Just spore/queen. Anyway I doubt I will ever play against a Zerg good or smart enough to scout for that detail, so I will just go for the faster second liberator. the reaction differs from different zerg builds. A fast lair build for instance will rely on an overseer whereas a delayed lair utilizes spores more
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Wouldn't the scout see the tech lab is idle, though?
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On November 19 2015 03:03 Tenks wrote: Wouldn't the scout see the tech lab is idle, though? you can start a different upgrade if you see an overlord approaching. It's also useful if you scout an all-in like 2base ravager/ling attack and switch from liberator to banshee.
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It seems like that tech lab just isn't well thought out. At the bare minimum it should be researching medivac boost upgrade since that upgrade is the business. I've been opening reaper FE into 111 but I get a Banshee while researching Medivac boost. The early game banshee is almost guaranteed to trade out well (and it forces spores to boot) and it gives me some time to get that medivac upgrade since I generally just go pure bio so I'll never have a tech port again.
Also did I miss the 3rd CC in the build?
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On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build.
It's just to be able to react to a roach ravager allin and start banshee production asap, I do the tech lab too and then start medvac production, if I scout incomming ravager I cancel the medvac and produce a banshee.
Using liberators to counter early roach ravager is really hard!
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On November 19 2015 03:44 BiiG-Fr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. It's just to be able to react to a roach ravager allin and start banshee production asap, I do the tech lab too and then start medvac production, if I scout incomming ravager I cancel the medvac and produce a banshee. Using liberators to counter early roach ravager is really hard!
Hm would 2 reactored liberators not be better at defending this than just 1 banshee?
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On November 19 2015 04:15 Aquila- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 03:44 BiiG-Fr wrote:On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. It's just to be able to react to a roach ravager allin and start banshee production asap, I do the tech lab too and then start medvac production, if I scout incomming ravager I cancel the medvac and produce a banshee. Using liberators to counter early roach ravager is really hard! Hm would 2 reactored liberators not be better at defending this than just 1 banshee? Reactors take a long time to make and liberators aren't good at dealing with ravagers because ravagers either kill them outright or force them to move and thus not attack.
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Ability to switch into banshee is necessary to survive 2 base ravager pushes. Overall seems like a decent build, I don't see the third cc or engineering bays anywhere though.
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On November 19 2015 05:03 Pursuit_ wrote: Ability to switch into banshee is necessary to survive 2 base ravager pushes. Overall seems like a decent build, I don't see the third cc or engineering bays anywhere though. If you watch the game EJK linked, 3rd CC comes down at just before 3 minutes (moments before the factory is done), double ebay comes down just before the 5 minute mark.
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On November 19 2015 05:03 Pursuit_ wrote: Ability to switch into banshee is necessary to survive 2 base ravager pushes. Overall seems like a decent build, I don't see the third cc or engineering bays anywhere though. whoops i had that in my notes but it didnt transfer properly, fixed now though!
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On November 19 2015 01:35 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. so it makes it hard for zerg to know if its liberator or banshee. A smart zerg player has to assume it could possibly be banshees Counterpoint to this argument: Banshees tend to be absolute shit in TvZ because of how liberal detection and anti-air tends to be for Zerg; whereas Liberators are very good for zone control and countering a Lurker transition.
In fact, I'd argue that the Liberators make a very good replacement for the SK Terran playstyle of the BW days, whereas Banshees are literally hard-countered the moment you have Spore Crawlers up. Also, Liberators actually fare well against a Mutalisk transition.
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On November 19 2015 06:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 01:35 EJK wrote:On November 19 2015 01:32 Aquila- wrote: Seems like they still think you need a techlab for liberator, otherwise why the techlab on the starport? Personally I use this opener a lot, but I make a reactor for the starport and get 2 liberator at a time, it can stop allins. Then I add an armory and do a hellbat liberator push. After that either bio, mech or skyterran. Seems like a good build. so it makes it hard for zerg to know if its liberator or banshee. A smart zerg player has to assume it could possibly be banshees Counterpoint to this argument: Banshees tend to be absolute shit in TvZ because of how liberal detection and anti-air tends to be for Zerg; whereas Liberators are very good for zone control and countering a Lurker transition. In fact, I'd argue that the Liberators make a very good replacement for the SK Terran playstyle of the BW days, whereas Banshees are literally hard-countered the moment you have Spore Crawlers up. Also, Liberators actually fare well against a Mutalisk transition. Banshees that aren't correctly responded to early on can completely destroy an economy, so at least this forces a response. But the main purpose of the banshee (tech) in this case is to survive roach/ravager rushes, which liberators aren't good against.
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