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Quick rundown on myself, played WoL and HotS for about 3 years making it to top masters on NA and mid masters KR with all races. I stopped playing after fucking up at MLG in 2013. I haven't played seriously trying to make it to the top of the ladder or watching tournys or following the game in general until I bought LotV on release date (Koreas release).
Now because I mained toss and the race feels so different now, I messed around with T and Z and fell in love with the new Z possibilities with the changes.
Now not having watched any vods, streams, seeing any changes and living in Korea using a pcbang unable to read shit, I had to learn the game through trial and error.
So far I've been using this in ZvT and ZvP.
+ Show Spoiler +
14 hatch
14 pool
14 gas
14 overlord
14/15 drone
16 queen x2 (spread creep with both, skip first larva inject)
20/21 drones
22 overlord
Drones with remaining larva followed by roach warren and lair, by now the larva injects should pop soon and you drone. When roach warren is finished build 5-6 roaches or more accordingly to the enemy strat.
With this opening pool finishes right before hatch, seconds within each other depending on map and when I send drone (on time or not). As the overlord finishes 3 larvae are available, I have found that the best use of it when ovie pops is 2 drones, this allows for immediate queens at both hatches simultaneously, 2 or 3 seconds apart. After this I can make 2 more drones and have enough minerals and gas for ling speed, and followed by an overlord. I take one more gas and continue on from there.
From my trial and error and learning this brand new game of sc2, I've found early ling speed feels very weak and instead I've opted for an early roach warren, about 35 supply. These safety roaches will pop out in time to push away any hellions, hellbat drops, and early Protoss pushes. I haven't used ravagers much but after reading in ENGLISH they can hit air I feel like this would be great to use vs Terran drops and banshee harass, as well as possible oracles (but queens deal with that easy enough).
Skipping ling speed also allows me to tech to lair exceptionally quick, allowing for about 4 minute roach speed. I've been able to push back early mech pushes and Protoss stalker immortal timings due to this. With roach speed in production I take a third safely and decide on if I want to use the subterranean siege tank supported by lizard marines or if I want to use the birds that fly fast and kill things.
Against Protoss I like to go straight for roach/hydra with the range upgrade first, and then get lurkers while I get my third. I usually stick to this composition and have had very good results. I usually have 5 overseers to snipe any observers, and if they don't have oracles I can kite the Protoss army through lurkers. When they run back I unburrow, chase, repeat. If they go air the hydras destroy it, archon zealot can be kited through lurkers, storm and disrupters are dealt with through good spread and unit control, and colossi can be dealt with simply by spreading, ignoring it, and sniping it when zealots are dead because colossi suck now.
Against Terran that's going bio I typically get a bane nest with a spire
off 2 base and when I have 7 or so mutalisks I take a third while harassing. I follow the third with a hydra den into lurkers, skipping the hydra range upgrade initially. I stop muta production at around 12, I usually can keep these 12 alive throughout the entire mid game. While the lurker den is being morphed I should have 2/2 on the way. My army composition typically consists of the 12 Mutas, hydra/roach/lurker. I've had success with this against mech and bio.
Late game I go for ultra/ling and end the game.
Against Zerg I've experimented with
+ Show Spoiler +
14 pool, send scout
14 gas
14 overlord
14/15 drones
16 queen
As soon as you have 100 gas I usually pull out all drones if I am doing an all in, or leave 2 in if I plan on following with Roaches with lair. You will have roughly 350 minerals before the second injection cycle finishes. Expand as you pressure him with your legion of speedlings.
You will have 13 drones on minerals if you send scout drone back and 3 in gas, you will have enough minerals for hatch after first larvae injection pops.) typically if they expand I'm able to kill their natural with an excess of lings, as I expand myself and build a roach warren keeping me safe from the potential counter attack with ling bane. I usually win straight up from here due to being so far ahead in tech and economy that people gg and I don't even know how to follow up, but in games I don't kill them I usually go roach hydra lurker with 1/1 and kill them off 3 base.
What have other Zerg players been experimenting with? I'm curious about their opening build and hatch overlord timing, their usage of gas early in the game with ling speed and lair. The expansion changed so much and it is so much different, and I find it extremely interesting as there seems to be no right or wrong build orders in the beginning.
Sorry if this seemed like a ramble, in the field writing this on a phone so I can't really proofread very easily.
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I have nothing to contribute but this. Lurker runbys are amazing and can kill a worker line faster than a mine drop.
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On November 14 2015 10:17 rafter wrote:
I have nothing to contribute but this. Lurker runbys are amazing and can kill a worker line faster than a mine drop.
I have a ZvT where we base traded and for 30 minutes he floated bases and made planetaries massing marines and liberators dropping bases and killing them with my pool lair and lurker den. I literally won by continually making hydras and lurkers, sending 3 right outside the range of a planetary and zoning off all mining as I pushed his production. He ended the game by running marines into a line of them at my lair. Such a good scrappy unit vs Terran when they have limited scans. You can zone them, harass them, defend. They can't do shit.
I had another game vs some grandmaster player like probefanboy or something. Almost won if I had spread my army vs storm but I had the upperhand for a hot minute when he engaged me, I focused his observer and ran away. He chased all the way over 6 lurkers and ran back over them realizing how damaged his army was, 20+ kills in that first engagement for the cost of 5 or so hydras. Such a strong unit.
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I am pretty sure 13 overlord 17 hatch 19 gas is the way to go.
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On November 14 2015 16:47 reps)squishy wrote:
I am pretty sure 13 overlord 17 hatch 19 gas is the way to go.
Pool when?
I have been playing 16 hatch (w/ double extractor trick) / 15 overlord (because otherwise you have 3 larvae around for ages, seems wasteful) / 14 pool, but it kind of seems like garbage. Comparing resources in replays in ZvZ, those who go for pool before hatch seem to have way more supply, income and drones before me (Because their queen is out earlier). Comparing ZvOtherRaces, I'm also only slightly ahead in drone count. I do overtake them after a while, but in order to do so I have to just drone up for a long time without gas and have basically nothing to defend myself with except queens and crawlers, and I'm consistently losing to timing pushes because of this (scouting early game zvx is really hard).
So yeah I don't have much to contribute except to say that don't play 16 hatch 15 ov 14 pool :D
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On November 14 2015 20:08 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 16:47 reps)squishy wrote:
I am pretty sure 13 overlord 17 hatch 19 gas is the way to go. Pool when? I have been playing 16 hatch (w/ double extractor trick) / 15 overlord (because otherwise you have 3 larvae around for ages, seems wasteful) / 14 pool, but it kind of seems like garbage. Comparing resources in replays in ZvZ, those who go for pool before hatch seem to have way more supply, income and drones before me (Because their queen is out earlier). Comparing ZvOtherRaces, I'm also only slightly ahead in drone count. I do overtake them after a while, but in order to do so I have to just drone up for a long time without gas and have basically nothing to defend myself with except queens and crawlers, and I'm consistently losing to timing pushes because of this (scouting early game zvx is really hard). So yeah I don't have much to contribute except to say that don't play 16 hatch 15 ov 14 pool :D
in zvz with hatch first you can go 3rd hatch before 2nd overlord and because of the early mineral to larva ratio in lotv you can have enough lings to defend, as long as you make bane nest too
this is my opener:
17h 18g 17p 20hatch 19queen 21lings, supply from second hatch finishes before you need 2nd ovie, 2nd ovie around 24-25 supply, and don't rush queens since you'll have 3 hatch production to pump drones
haven't worked out the best time for the bane nest yet, but that will come with experience
i have won countless zvzs just by going early 3rd hatch, my opponent thinks he can kill me with an allin, and i defend, then usually after the game they message me calling me greedy and cursing my family :D
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I just wanted to mention that 17 pool and later seems to be pretty hard against early pool strategies in zvz. If enemy does 12 pool or earlier they will have 6 lings at your door when your pool is about 1/2 - 3/4 (depending on whether you do 16 or 17 hatch, 18/19 pool) finished which is plenty enough to kill your expansion or alternatively do huge eco damage to you if you decide to defend with drones.
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if youre making as many drones as you can before your money piles up enough for a hatch, it will be
13 ol
18 hatch (you rally your 17th drone to the natural)
19 pool
19 gas
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Russian Federation126 Posts
who know a default opening in ZvT, ZvP?
most popular and right.
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I'm just a platinum player, but I've found in ZvZ gas first then 14 pool can be pretty effective. Though maybe that's too all-inish.
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On November 14 2015 20:53 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 20:08 heishe wrote:On November 14 2015 16:47 reps)squishy wrote:
I am pretty sure 13 overlord 17 hatch 19 gas is the way to go. Pool when? I have been playing 16 hatch (w/ double extractor trick) / 15 overlord (because otherwise you have 3 larvae around for ages, seems wasteful) / 14 pool, but it kind of seems like garbage. Comparing resources in replays in ZvZ, those who go for pool before hatch seem to have way more supply, income and drones before me (Because their queen is out earlier). Comparing ZvOtherRaces, I'm also only slightly ahead in drone count. I do overtake them after a while, but in order to do so I have to just drone up for a long time without gas and have basically nothing to defend myself with except queens and crawlers, and I'm consistently losing to timing pushes because of this (scouting early game zvx is really hard). So yeah I don't have much to contribute except to say that don't play 16 hatch 15 ov 14 pool :D in zvz with hatch first you can go 3rd hatch before 2nd overlord and because of the early mineral to larva ratio in lotv you can have enough lings to defend, as long as you make bane nest too this is my opener: 17h 18g 17p 20hatch 19queen 21lings, supply from second hatch finishes before you need 2nd ovie, 2nd ovie around 24-25 supply, and don't rush queens since you'll have 3 hatch production to pump drones haven't worked out the best time for the bane nest yet, but that will come with experience i have won countless zvzs just by going early 3rd hatch, my opponent thinks he can kill me with an allin, and i defend, then usually after the game they message me calling me greedy and cursing my family :D
Interesting I have had a different experience. I have only seen 2 zergs go fast 3 hatch like your build and I easily killed him with a ling/bane all in. Not sure how you can defend against that with your build unless he misplays his banelings. Have the all ins you faced just roach/ling all ins?
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i used to do 17 hatch/pool macro openings but i think i'm going to try these because the late game is stressing me out in LOTV now.
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EPT
