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Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly.
let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way.
- Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript
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On November 13 2015 11:30 EJK wrote:Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly. Show nested quote + let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way. - Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript
hes using it correctly build orders are a template for certain builds to get to an optimal point. Just because Day[9] wrote that doesnt mean that hes the biblical reference of what it is, that is just his vision.
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On November 13 2015 11:45 OhThatDang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 11:30 EJK wrote:Im sorry but I have to call you out. You are using the word "build" incorrectly. let’s ask the question “What is a build order?” A build order is an optimization of an idea. That is it’s the best possible way to do some thing. Now, I do mean idea in as broad a sense as possible. An idea could be something as simple as, “Hey, if I have +1 upgrade for my zealots for attack they can kill a zergling in two hits.” And we have a lot of builds that now revolve around getting that upgrade very quickly. Or a terran player might say, “Wow, zergs really like mutalisks and lurkers against me. Maybe I can try to kill them before even gets his lair tech going.” Now all of a sudden we have bunker rushes and fast tank pushes being motivated from this idea. Your idea could be something tactical, like “Wow, this bridge is very narrow, I bet if I controlled this my opponent would have a very hard time breaking out this front.” This is a great motivator for a huge number of builds. And although it sounds a little vague a build is an optimization of an idea, I want to use that definition because it is very important that I keep referring back to my initial idea. And make sure that I’m not contradicting that or violating it in some way. - Day9 (A New Look at Build Orders) Podcast Transcript hes using it correctly build orders are a template for certain builds to get to an optimal point. Just because Day[9] wrote that doesnt mean that hes the biblical reference of what it is, that is just his vision.
yes, to get to an optimal point but....for what? When you have a 'build', the word usually implies you are building towards something. In this case, there is a part missing about the idea you are trying to optimally reach.
Also I'm not using it as a bible by any means. I challenge someone to make a better definition (i tried and couldn't)
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So after about 75 games or so, here's my general game plan for each of the matchups-
TvZ: SCV Scout* ->Reaper FE -> Third -> Hellion Banshee** -> 5 Rax (1TL 4 Reactor) -> Double Ebay -> 4th CC -> 3 more rax (1 Reactor 2 TL) -> Ghost Production***
*You have to scout and if you scout 1 base ravager or 1 base baneling you have to go 1 base banshee or 1 base reactor hellion, there's really no other way to hold these IMO.
**Against 2 base muta you need to swap the starport onto the reactor and make 4 Liberators and an Ebay, otherwise the mutas will pin you in your base for so long Zerg can easily get tier 3.
***You need pre-emptive ghosts or like 2x his army supply to have a chance vs Ultras, a Liberator transition (2x Starport, 1 Reactor 1 TL, and fusion core) could probably work too but I find that Vipers / Corruptors wreck high numbers of Liberators and you need like 10+ to have a chance vs Ultralisks. If you only have a couple they can a move through them or go around.
TvP: SCV Scout -> CC first -> 3 Rax* -> 3rd CC -> Starport** -> 2 more rax -> 4th CC + 2 more starports** + fusion core -> 3 rax -> mass CC
*You can actually hold most pushes with just 3 rax infrastructure, once you have like 7-8 marines you can easily take on an adept of 2 if you micro well. You should figure out where the first 2 pylons are with your SCV scout and spend your first scan to figure out what tech he's going for and react accordingly, grabbing an Ebay vs DT / Oracle.
**I usually only make ~6 medivacs (and remake them if I lose them) before going into Liberator production. You really need 6 gas to get enough Liberators to make it worth it IMO, 1-4 Liberators are a joke for stalkers to blink around or into and kill but once you hit that magic 10+ protoss tears abound.
TvP has completely switch from HotS IMO where now it's Protoss's job to do damage to Terran before they can afford that critical mass of liberators. Even if you take some damage from warp prism / oracle / stalker harass you should be fine, just play really defensively until you get your critical mass of Liberators. The hardest thing to hold will be mid game Blink Stalker / Disruptor pushes, I'll even make upwards of 5 bunkers vs them. Also make lots of Turrets after you've established your third to prevent Warp Prism harass.
TvT: Honestly I just wing this MU, there's too variation in openings for me to have figured out anything solid yet and not a whole lot of Terran's playing. I play marine / tank and my general gameplan is-
vs Mech: 2 base 5 rax, grab a couple vikings and medivacs and try to doom drop his army (assuming it's tank based), win one big engagement and rally into his production. Failing an opportunity to do that, I'll play a mass expand -> air transition while only getting 2-4 medivacs. Keep making bio since if your opponent pushes out even with a maxed out army a big surround + doom drop can easily win the game, and as teh game drags on your opponent will have to spread out more and take more and more vulnerable bases.
vs Marine / Tank: Just drop everywhere and expand everywhere, my army is usually in 3-5 groups after the early game and I have lone marines spread everywhere. I try to avoid straight up army vs army engagements because I really dislike how they interact now with Tankivacs, but if you do engage straight up keep a 1-2 marines stimmed and ahead of your army, then tankivacs then your marine ball. Scan ahead too, and whenever you see your opponent's army just insta drop your tanks. You need a really good sense of where your advantages are and how to abuse them to be successful because every game you'll be in a different situation.
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I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now.
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On November 13 2015 14:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now.
I do a pre-medivac stim / cs poke designed to shut down greedy thirds, otherwise pretty much straight turtle into 3 base into 10+ libs. 79% win rate and all of my losses are from before I figured this style out.
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On November 13 2015 14:31 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 14:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I'm finding TvZ generally pretty straightforward, just difficult. It's the same story of every terran matchup for many years; flimsy early game, strong midgame, kill them quickly. The openings and the flow of the game are relatively similar, I find. It's TvP that's different.
On TvP: are you guys just straight turtling against stalker/disruptor with a quick transition as your third goes up? Because that, to me, seems like it won't be sustainable long-term. Should I be defending solely? Or should I be posturing for map control and denying a fourth base, with some light dropping here and there? (that would seem to mesh more with 8 barracks before liberators.) It feels very weird to me to not be dropping or being aggressive at all, but maybe it's just the way the matchup is now. I do a pre-medivac stim / cs poke designed to shut down greedy thirds, otherwise pretty much straight turtle into 3 base into 10+ libs. 79% win rate and all of my losses are from before I figured this style out.
how do you deal with a 2base allin, either mass gateways or disruptor? i assume you can't make a third CC. how many rax before lib production, or are you depending on libs to hold the push? that seems shaky since pre-range and in low numbers they can be picked off by stalkers
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ok liberator is a cool as fuck unit
anyone have some build orders for all the matchups
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On November 13 2015 16:59 rauk wrote:
how do you deal with a 2base allin, either mass gateways or disruptor? i assume you can't make a third CC. how many rax before lib production, or are you depending on libs to hold the push? that seems shaky since pre-range and in low numbers they can be picked off by stalkers
On November 13 2015 12:19 Pursuit_ wrote:
TvP: SCV Scout -> CC first -> 3 Rax* -> 3rd CC -> Starport** -> 2 more rax -> 4th CC + 2 more starports** -> 3 rax -> mass CC
*You can actually hold most pushes with just 3 rax infrastructure, once you have like 7-8 marines you can easily take on an adept of 2 if you micro well. You should figure out where the first 2 pylons are with your SCV scout and spend your first scan to figure out what tech he's going for and react accordingly, grabbing an Ebay vs DT / Oracle.
**I usually only make ~6 medivacs (and remake them if I lose them) before going into Liberator production. You really need 6 gas to get enough Liberators to make it worth it IMO, 1-4 Liberators are a joke for stalkers to blink around or into and kill but once you hit that magic 10+ protoss tears abound.
TvP has completely switch from HotS IMO where now it's Protoss's job to do damage to Terran before they can afford that critical mass of liberators. Even if you take some damage from warp prism / oracle / stalker harass you should be fine, just play really defensively until you get your critical mass of Liberators. The hardest thing to hold will be mid game Blink Stalker / Disruptor pushes, I'll even make upwards of 5 bunkers vs them. Also make lots of Turrets after you've established your third to prevent Warp Prism harass.
I've already made my third by the time I see it coming but I don't try landing it until I see Protoss taking their own third, like in HotS how Protoss can sit on 2 base if Terran is trying to do damage on 2 base and be fine, you get to do that now ^.^
edit: I guess I should add that of the 2 extra starports, 1 is reactor 1 is tech lab and I also get a fusion core at this time for the upgrade.
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On November 13 2015 05:09 Tenks wrote:
To really be safe in TvT are you pretty much forced into 1/1/1?
If you want to be safe, yes, you need a viking asap against fast banshee or drop tank
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@Pursuit_
Do you stick with bio only if the Zerg is going roach/hydra/lurker?
Do you prioritize the Liberator upgrade or is it unnecessary in TvP?
(edit: NM I re-read the build and saw the fusion core)
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This doesn't work-mine drops only work if your opponent is bad.
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Dude necros a three year old thread and doesn't even quote the post he was replying to. SMH 
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