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Canada13389 Posts
Hello everyone,
Every time I see very high level PvP from Korea I have always been impressed by their Simcity. On maps where cannon rush is not especially common I see Korean Protoss players make walls that allow them to:
- Good power coverage on their initial buildings
- The ability to place Stargate and Twilight tech behind the mineral line
- To keep all their buildings within photon overcharge range
- The option of using forcefields to keep units like dark templar out of the mineral line if they get past the ramp
- Still rally probes to their natural without trapping them even with the buildings up against the nexus.
Yesterday I caught up on the Protoss group from the GSL and realised that this wall in was used a lot by the SKT Protoss players and it was nearly identical whenever it was made on a map with diagonally positioned gas geysers (Frost, Daedelus, Polar Night, Yeonsu). Though Yeonsu, due to how common cannon rushes are, buildings should never be placed in a forward position towards the edge of your main.
So I decided to take some screenshots of it in game and recreate it in a custom game with screenshots of every step in order to create a short guide to the wall in while learning how to do it myself! Its very simple but very powerful. In this guide I will show you how to make the wall and point out some considerations and realizations I came to while making this post. you will see a random zergling and very bad macro, I was doing this in a custom game vs AI to practice building placements with cancels and placings so lets not focus on that.
The First Pylon
Placing the first pylon is actually a bigger decision than you realise. In PvP every single decision has an impact on what you get out of it. Placing the first pylon right up against the nexus does two things. It reduces the surface area the pylon can be attacked by zealots in the case of a proxy two gate, and it ensures that your buildings will be close to the nexus against one base pushes. This particular pylon placement also provides very good pylon power to the buildings you will be placing later. Furthermore, on a map with diagonally oriented gas geysers a pylon in this position allows you a one forcefield space between the pylon and the geyser, which prevents it from entering your mineral line. There is also a position for the forcefield which bugs out the DT pathing AI and causes it to try and run through the forcefield instead of around. I will update this thread when I further research exactly where this forcefield gets placed to do so.
First Gateway
This gateway and all other buildings in this initial simcity are placed in such a way that a heavy stalker pressure cannot kill the buildings or do damage to them for free, they will be in range of the photon overcharge if they are in range of attacking your buildings.
Second Pylon
This second pylon goes behind the mineral line, allowing you to hide your tech more easily. If opening robo I feel like the third pylon positioning may be better as your 2nd pylon, allowing a safer and quicker robo placement.
Cyber Core Placement - 2 Options
The core can either be placed on the outside of the nexus or behind the mineral line. In my opinion, keeping the cybernetics core behind the mineral line should be preferred. It forces the opposing Protoss player to commit more effort to checking on whether chronoboost is being spent on the cybernetics core and on a larger map like Frost further reduces the chances of the cybernetics core being scouter. Furthermore, against very aggressive openings even if photon overcharge covers the cybernetics core, I prefer having it tucked away because if you are doing a tech heavy opening and your standing army is smaller, the opponent has more opportunity to kill the cybernetics core the further out it is and vs all very aggressive builds in PvP Stalkers are too important to be unable to make because of a misplaced cybernetics core.
However, as noted above if you choose to open robo as your first tech choice then the core is better out front only because your second pylon is at the front instead of in the back.
Parting placed his cybernetics core further front, Rain placed his in the back.
Second Gateway - Alternatively Robo placement
If you are the kind of player who goes for a quick second gateway, or likes to get a fast robotics facility, this is where you put it. Please not the corners of the gates touching, this is very important. It allows you to place a later robo if needed in a 2 pylon powered position that is also forward. Having a forward robo placement is extremely important against blink builds because the faster an immortal can get to the front of the fight the better. Please note that if you place the robotics where the gateway is here it is marginally safer than having it where you will see it in later images. If you are opening twilight or stargate you will be able to place the robo here where this second gate is after the third pylon is completed, leaving other options for the 2nd gateway as you will see later.
Third Pylon Placement
This pylon mirrors the first, providing additional power to the first two buildings placed next to the nexus (2 gateways or a gateway and a robo). The only weakness of this third pylon is that it is very obvious and easily scouted, meaning you will not be playing any mindgames with your opponent by making them think you might be proxying a stargate or a twilight.
Third Gateway or Second Gate With Robo
A number of Koreans prefer to get three gateways instead of just two when doing tech based builds whether they intend to expand or not, and this is where the SKT protoss the other night place it. It creates a small choke point to protect your mineral line when placed near a geyser closest to the edge of the map. Something to keep in mind, if you place this gate above the nexus as seen here it doesn't create a choke and maintains a large opening on either side. The choke makes stalkers more difficult to engage with as an attacking player, a single zealot or forcefield helps block off an attack path while still defending the pylon from melee units.
Tech Behind Mineral Line Placements
When your tech of choice is not a robotics facility, you want to put the tech behind the mineral line to make it harder to scout. Since its not a robotics facility you don't need to worry about pathing or rally time like you would have to worry about immortals. Placed correctly you will also have room for a dark shrine within the single pylon power space.
How Safely Powered Am I really?
You actually get some very good power coverage from this vs all the quicker timings and you have more than enough time to build additional pylons while photon overcharge is on. The opponent will need to kill both pylons separated by good building position making it not so easy to do without losses.
Keep in mind also when looking at these images I put a robo in the emergency OMG I NEED A ROBO NOW position. It limits surface area against DTs who try to rush down your robo and provides you with the option to forcefield to keep it alive in this situation. But don't put the robo there if you can help it, put it where gateway two should be. The emergency robo position will not block any probes from getting to their rally point as long as the rally point doesn't cross through the gap by the robo. For example on Daedelus here it should rally just to the natural if you rally the nexus to the natural as I tested it.
Chokes and Forcefields for Defense
You get a lot of positional opportunities with this wall in use it!
This guide looks at the positioning of buildings where the gasses are diagonally placed in relation to the nexus, stolen from a few Korean Protoss games I've seen. I try here to explain the benefits and reasoning behind the choices made in how and why things are placed this way. I hope to eventually update the OP for a simcity where the gas geysers are parallel with the nexus, however the only maps in the pool that have that are Heavy Rain (where cannon rushes like yeonsu from the low ground can be very powerful vs buildings put in front of the nexus) and Alterzim and there doesn't seem to be a "standard" coming out of korea for it, as opposed to the placements I examine here which happen quite often.
Though if I do find it I wont do it in as much detail as in this post so far. It will likely be one image of the sim city itself with some description instead of a step by step image guide.
Hope this helps someone out there. 
I also want to open this up to discussions, are there better walls you have seen? Do you guys want to talk about placing buildings defensively vs cannon rush on maps like Yeonsu or Heavy Rain? Lets chat and find the best options for PvP sim city, which IMO is sorely overlooked.
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Simcity is so important in PvP. Glad to see a guide on this.
Parting's simcity in games 1 and 2 vs. Classic in GSL Code S (this most recent one) were arguably game winning. In G1 he's able to chrono boost out 2 Stalkers versus an unscouted proxy 2 gate because (among other things) his pylon powering the gateway is sandwiched behind the mineral line. In game 2, he holds off a DT rush losing no workers because his simcity and 1/2 forcefields allow him to pretty much deny the DT from entering the mineral line.
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There is one thing about this that is very very bad. That robotics facility will end up trapping probes that are built from the nexus but rallied to a different mineral line. Always avoid wrapping buildings tight around that corner of the nexus between the two pylons. I've seen some players swell gateways in that area (packing 5 or 6 around that area), but the way they are place and the grid of them always allows probes an easy exit when they come out. I'll look for a picture.
Aside from avoiding that, this guide is very good the rest of it is spot on.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 14 2014 07:26 ajdodge16 wrote:
There is one thing about this that is very very bad. That robotics facility will end up trapping probes that are built from the nexus but rallied to a different mineral line. Always avoid wrapping buildings tight around that corner of the nexus between the two pylons. I've seen some players swell gateways in that area (packing 5 or 6 around that area), but the way they are place and the grid of them always allows probes an easy exit when they come out. I'll look for a picture.
Aside from avoiding that, this guide is very good the rest of it is spot on.
I tested it it doesn't when rallied to the natural. The probes still figure their way out because the wall is SO tight that they dont even have a one gap space to spawn and sit inside of on the side of the nexus and they arent told to rally through that little gap which yeah is there. Again, this is an emergency wtf robo position I recommend in the guide that it goes where the second gateway is which is why I called it: "Second Gateway - Alternatively Robo placement".
I tested it again and it doesnt get in the way of rallying to a natural. Only if you rally directly through the gap, if the rally point is to the side of the nexus in anyway the probe doesnt get trapped. Also I believe i make it clear that this robo positioning is an emergency robo positioning - you need a robo vs DTs that you scouted late you make it there so that you can keep the surface area for the robo limited, making FFs and unit positioninig against the robo safer if they try to race you for the observer, which happens often enough vs DTs. Preferably the robo goes where the 2nd gate is placed as this still lets probes get by no matter where your rally point heads to.
All you need to do also is remember to not rally DIRECTLY through that gap and the probes will spawn on the outside of the nexus and make their way through. You might have to rally a waypoint for when you take a third or fourth but it only takes one moment of extra effort, and it wont block probes heading to the nat as I said before
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Wow, nice! Seems the list you tried to make is erroneous though
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 14 2014 08:18 neptunusfisk wrote:Wow, nice! Seems the list you tried to make is erroneous though
BBCODE is my nemesis.
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United States4883 Posts
Nice job, Zero. Good guide. I've always done my own little variations on building placement and most of them were fairly similar to this. I've never been very good at making nice places to put my gateways though; most of the time I just throw them down wherever there's room.
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Probes could easily get stuck between the robo and gateways depending on the map. I mean, even if you carefully rally your probes to avoid it, it does leave more room to mistake.
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On March 14 2014 08:13 ZeromuS wrote:I tested it it doesn't when rallied to the natural. The probes still figure their way out because the wall is SO tight that they dont even have a one gap space to spawn and sit inside of on the side of the nexus and they arent told to rally through that little gap which yeah is there. Again, this is an emergency wtf robo position I recommend in the guide that it goes where the second gateway is which is why I called it: "Second Gateway - Alternatively Robo placement". All you need to do also is remember to not rally DIRECTLY through that gap and the probes will spawn on the outside of the nexus and make their way through. You might have to rally a waypoint for when you take a third or fourth but it only takes one moment of extra effort, and it wont block probes heading to the nat as I said before
I know for sure that 3-4 probes can get caught in that space, and it depends on the position of the ramp from natural to main in relation to the nexus. You are correct that this problem will not be an issue on every map, but there are some maps were the ramp to natural is directly past this little gap. As I am a player of all 3 races, and I tend to play a lot of macro games, constantly changing rallypoints is standard for me. I would not want to be bothered having to shift click a waypoint for only one nexus when they are all on the same hotkey and need to make probes to saturate 4th base. I understand its an emergency robo placement but I like the idea of putting it where the second gate is much better. I really think you nailed it with that analysis, but I just wanted to point this out so people that see the picture don't automatically think cornering off your nexus is good. After all, it is much easier to have a plan and leave a space for an intended building you haven't placed yet, then it is to figure out and remember which maps you can corner off your nexus on without having to worry and which ones you can't
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 14 2014 09:54 ajdodge16 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 08:13 ZeromuS wrote:I tested it it doesn't when rallied to the natural. The probes still figure their way out because the wall is SO tight that they dont even have a one gap space to spawn and sit inside of on the side of the nexus and they arent told to rally through that little gap which yeah is there. Again, this is an emergency wtf robo position I recommend in the guide that it goes where the second gateway is which is why I called it: "Second Gateway - Alternatively Robo placement". All you need to do also is remember to not rally DIRECTLY through that gap and the probes will spawn on the outside of the nexus and make their way through. You might have to rally a waypoint for when you take a third or fourth but it only takes one moment of extra effort, and it wont block probes heading to the nat as I said before I know for sure that 3-4 probes can get caught in that space, and it depends on the position of the ramp from natural to main in relation to the nexus. You are correct that this problem will not be an issue on every map, but there are some maps were the ramp to natural is directly past this little gap. As I am a player of all 3 races, and I tend to play a lot of macro games, constantly changing rallypoints is standard for me. I would not want to be bothered having to shift click a waypoint for only one nexus when they are all on the same hotkey and need to make probes to saturate 4th base. I understand its an emergency robo placement but I like the idea of putting it where the second gate is much better. I really think you nailed it with that analysis, but I just wanted to point this out so people that see the picture don't automatically think cornering off your nexus is good. After all, it is much easier to have a plan and leave a space for an intended building you haven't placed yet, then it is to figure out and remember which maps you can corner off your nexus on without having to worry and which ones you can't
Yeah I can understand that. I added an addendum warning people not to do it unless they absolutely need a Robo really badly and it needs to be very safe and tried to make that more clear in my post thanks for the feedback :D
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This is very high level stuff. A few positioning can make a hell lot of difference at higher levels.
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Just here to compliment you on the amazing research. SC2 is so deep !
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Great work! I think there's a lot of room for improvement for a lot a pro players with how they position buildings (all races).
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On March 14 2014 03:40 DinoMight wrote:
Simcity is so important in PvP. Glad to see a guide on this.
Parting's simcity in games 1 and 2 vs. Classic in GSL Code S (this most recent one) were arguably game winning. In G1 he's able to chrono boost out 2 Stalkers versus an unscouted proxy 2 gate because (among other things) his pylon powering the gateway is sandwiched behind the mineral line. In game 2, he holds off a DT rush losing no workers because his simcity and 1/2 forcefields allow him to pretty much deny the DT from entering the mineral line.
have to agree with this. Those placements were crucial.
The placement in this post seems to have quite a bit more gaps against dt. In general there seem to be about 6 spots for dt to enter the mineral line: 2 between nexus and geysers, 2 between geysers and minerals and 2 or so between the minerals itself. I believe most maps you can plug most gaps except those between nexus and geyser to have a slightly easier dt defense as the gap between nexus and geyser can be covered perfectly by a forcefield, that's quite high level stuff though and it's pretty darn difficult to do a defense like Parting did (buy time with stalkers on hold position on ramp and then with forcefields to keep dt away from minerals).
Overall though I don't see the need as much to put the cyber behind the minerals and rather use it to cover the first pylon a bit better which is very helpful against 2 gate defense. The reason for building close to the nexus also just seems to be to not lose that extra few minerals putting stuff further away. Every few minerals matter reasonably for the cybercore timing if you go 2 gas before cyber.
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Austria24417 Posts
Been incorporating it into my game too, not just in PvP. Anti reaper sim city in PvT is extremely helpful as well. I feel like the top protoss players are really ahead of the other races in terms of figuring out small helpful details like this that can even spiral into game winning scenarios like Parting vs Classic.
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fun to watch todays GSL (sOs, Zest, Rain, HerO[join]) and notice these being used
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Thanks for sharing and putting in effort. I have always been trying to mess around with building placement depending on how I wanted to play, and I love the way Koreans found this one in PvP.
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Great stuff, I wish there was more analysis like this in all matchups on building placement. Thanks for taking the time to do this ZeromuS. And ya PartinG's simcity vs Classic was phenomenal, I've gone back and watched that series so many times just picking out things I can use. This is a good time to learn Protoss with so many of them around in major tournaments haha
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/ZeromuS/Strategy/PvPWall/1first_pylon.jpg)
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