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So I'm in Bel'shir Vestige in a standard TvP. Going for my strongest and well known build, the 1 Rax FE with the 10min Bio timing push.
I move out just a bit earlier to see what he has and I run headlong into a colossus with a spit spatter of gateway units and sentries. So my thought process is "Ok he is turtling up, I'll take a faster 3rd then push out later maxed out".
When I eventually push out, I run into carrier mother ship core which is beyond my experience so I just think "Raven/Viking" sack my bio army and pull back to regroup.
I take a 5th, add Starports, and build my own little fleet. However he also adds in a few tempests in his final push and I just get completely shat on. So in retrospect I'm thinking:
(1) Scout the air composition earlier, immediately start getting faster vehicle/ship upgrades
(2) Get a fusion core and start researching Weapon refit and eventually Behemoth reactor, maybe grab double fusion core to get them both at the same time (5 base economy don't see why not)
(3) Aim for a BC/Raven/Viking composition
My main assumption is that BC/Raven/Viking HAS to be the correct composition, I don't see any other choices, perhaps Nukes to zone out his army.
I have a replay here if you wish to watch maybe perhaps point out what I should have done better. Any advice appreciated.
Replay: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4387384
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Upgraded Tempests do like 90 damage per shot to Battlecruisers. BC are absolutely the worst thing you could build.
Believe it or not, unless he has Templar or Colos, pure Stimmed Bio and Medivacs can kill that army.
Use Ravens for PDD. They are super effective against Tempest shots. Against the Carriers you just Stim, run under them, and right click the Carriers.
Marines and medivacs alone will kill any Protoss that doesn't make either Templar w Storm or Colossus...
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On November 20 2013 10:16 DinoMight wrote:
Upgraded Tempests do like 90 damage per shot to Battlecruisers. BC are absolutely the worst thing you could build.
Believe it or not, unless he has Templar or Colos, pure Stimmed Bio and Medivacs can kill that army.
Use Ravens for PDD. They are super effective against Tempest shots. Against the Carriers you just Stim, run under them, and right click the Carriers.
Marines and medivacs alone will kill any Protoss that doesn't make either Templar w Storm or Colossus...
I disagree with most of what he said except for the fact that pdd nullifies temptests, so you dont really have to worry about them just killing off the bcs. And a critical mass of carriers (8-12 depending on the amount of bio) will stop stimmed rines from getting much done, so youre going to want bcs to cannon them down. Then just keep some vikings on hand to act as a meat shield and help force an engagement and you should be fine.
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On November 20 2013 10:16 DinoMight wrote:
Upgraded Tempests do like 90 damage per shot to Battlecruisers. BC are absolutely the worst thing you could build.
Believe it or not, unless he has Templar or Colos, pure Stimmed Bio and Medivacs can kill that army.
Use Ravens for PDD. They are super effective against Tempest shots. Against the Carriers you just Stim, run under them, and right click the Carriers.
Marines and medivacs alone will kill any Protoss that doesn't make either Templar w Storm or Colossus...
More often than not High Templar will accompany the toss air, as this army is only super late game in split map compositions where they can afford to mass. Which makes pure stimmed marines suck. Ravens are good, although feedback sucks as well.
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Depends on what air units he is getting. Yamato is good against carriers but you don't really want bcs because of tempests and feedback. You want to have Vikings and ravens against air toss, while using your bio to exploit his reduced mobility. You also want to keep a ground army on the map because in advanced late game scenarios you can expect 20+ gateway unit reinforcements.
Pretty much no matter what toss is doing, if you can get to ghost raven Viking with some marines and marauders for the ground army, you have gold on your hands.
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for marines vs carriers fights, the key word is upgrades... with higher upgrades than P, marines win. With equal or lower upgrades, carriers will destroy marines easily.
If you can't kill him before you get mass carriers upgraded, the best way to fight protoss full air toe-to-toe is with a mix of marines/vikings/mines with drilling claws. You need to tank some shots with vikings/marines while you place your mines. ~20 mines can clear a carrier force very cost effectively. You don't have to upgrade their attack (mine attack can't be upgraded in the armory) so you just have to build some reactor factories + start the drilling claws upgrade before he has his 3-3 air and a critical mass to be prepared in time.
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my experience with this is that you just cannot fight maxed protoss air + templar head on. i had an amazing game on ww against someone who did this to me in response to my mech play and the way i managed to win was by constantly threatening his eco with counterattacks while getting as many turrets and vikings as my money would allow me to. mass turrets + some pdd + 1-2 thors (clumped shots at the interceptors are a real money drain!) and tanks (for templar zoneing), even though this couldnt defeat this army, was enough to hold center control. so in response to this he had to fly all the way around to pick up my satelite bases while i could always threaten to push his expos or production with my remaining ground forces. so there were lots of situations where his fleet was in one corner of the map while i pushed the other (and landed somme ccs+ mmules there). eventually i went on to win the game because he couldnt remax his fleet after i send in 3 maxed waves of vikings to kill it off.
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(1) scouting is definitly a good plan at any time.
(2) the upgrades research so fast compared to BC build time you won't need a 2nd fusion core.
(3) yamato>carrier vikings>tempest and ravens to block tempest shots on BC's make this probably the best composition to deal with maxed toss air.
as for feedback, you can choose the hard route and go ghosts, or easy route by stacking all your air up making it really hard for toss to target feedback, but this will probably lose you just a few units.
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On November 20 2013 15:57 19Meavis93 wrote:
(1) scouting is definitly a good plan at any time.
(2) the upgrades research so fast compared to BC build time you won't need a 2nd fusion core.
(3) yamato>carrier vikings>tempest and ravens to block tempest shots on BC's make this probably the best composition to deal with maxed toss air.
as for feedback, you can choose the hard route and go ghosts, or easy route by stacking all your air up making it really hard for toss to target feedback, but this will probably lose you just a few units.
solving this problem via composition doesnt work too well because after a big fight toss can just bum rush you with some warp prisms and 20+ gateways. in other words, if you try to build an army that can fight this head on, you die to counterattacks.
also: you lose all ability to harras if you choose this kind of army. at best this gives you a 50 - 50 win chance.
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On November 20 2013 15:36 yanot wrote:
for marines vs carriers fights, the key word is upgrades... with higher upgrades than P, marines win. With equal or lower upgrades, carriers will destroy marines easily.
If you can't kill him before you get mass carriers upgraded, the best way to fight protoss full air toe-to-toe is with a mix of marines/vikings/mines with drilling claws. You need to tank some shots with vikings/marines while you place your mines. ~20 mines can clear a carrier force very cost effectively. You don't have to upgrade their attack (mine attack can't be upgraded in the armory) so you just have to build some reactor factories + start the drilling claws upgrade before he has his 3-3 air and a critical mass to be prepared in time.
mm + G is a fairly good way to deal with this. you get a lott of mobility and as long as there is no 3-3-3 for toss you have a chance at winning direct fights too. getting some nukes is probably not a bad idea at all with this either.
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Also, if he builds Carrier/Mothership/Tempest, I don't see how he gets a fourth and holds it ever with correct play. Just attack everywhere he isn't... That army is super damn slow, and even if the Tempests have obscene range, they still don't one-shot Marines, and they shoot so slowly that you can always disengage and refuse to fight him straight up.
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On November 20 2013 16:00 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 15:57 19Meavis93 wrote:
(1) scouting is definitly a good plan at any time.
(2) the upgrades research so fast compared to BC build time you won't need a 2nd fusion core.
(3) yamato>carrier vikings>tempest and ravens to block tempest shots on BC's make this probably the best composition to deal with maxed toss air.
as for feedback, you can choose the hard route and go ghosts, or easy route by stacking all your air up making it really hard for toss to target feedback, but this will probably lose you just a few units. solving this problem via composition doesnt work too well because after a big fight toss can just bum rush you with some warp prisms and 20+ gateways. in other words, if you try to build an army that can fight this head on, you die to counterattacks. also: you lose all ability to harras if you choose this kind of army. at best this gives you a 50 - 50 win chance.
You typically have Pforts and turrets. It's almost never an issue in these situations.
On November 20 2013 22:36 Jazzman88 wrote:
Also, if he builds Carrier/Mothership/Tempest, I don't see how he gets a fourth and holds it ever with correct play. Just attack everywhere he isn't... That army is super damn slow, and even if the Tempests have obscene range, they still don't one-shot Marines, and they shoot so slowly that you can always disengage and refuse to fight him straight up.
1. It's not like you go directly into that composition, it's transitioned into.
2. This style is heavily reliant on gas. Expansions are typically defended by mass cannons to buy time. Like 6-8+ cannons. Often a templar on top of that, so they take quite a while to break. Personally I get phoenix as well for anti drop if I ever do this style, which is admittedly very rarely (I do it all the time vs Zerg though) and to pick off rogue vikings.
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Unless he is retarded he will have plenty of templar in support. I've found Protoss air to be pretty hard to deal with as terran when I go mech. Even if you focus fire the mothership/carriers, by the time you kill the mothership and a few carriers you lose everything.
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EPT
