EPT[G] PvT Kracen's 4 Oracles - Page 2
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shadow_orc
Canada52 Posts
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TXRaunchy
United States131 Posts
His PvT is good, he is at like 95% win-rate on EU, most likely the same in NA. | ||
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On July 25 2013 22:02 shadow_orc wrote: i would be interested for you to make a video on it Okay, I will get it done for/at the weekend. Bit tired after work to really get it done during the week. On July 25 2013 22:20 TXRaunchy wrote: just watch MaximusBlack's stream. His PvT is good, he is at like 95% win-rate on EU, most likely the same in NA. I'm sure he appreciates your plugging of his stream but this guide is not a complete PvT run down, it is an opening that I have been playing with and decided to share that has made my PvT my best match up. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On July 26 2013 05:26 b_unnies wrote: how do you deal with mines that are already placed in the middle of SCV's mineral mines? that's what terrans always do the moment they scan my stargate As said in the original description of the build, it is best to proxy your Stargate to simply avoid the Terran being able to just scan it or for Reaper builds to just walk into it, they then have to actively look for it, or be caught off guard, or blindly counter with fingers crossed. However, when Mines are active, this shouldn't stop you from dealing damage where you can, don't forget about those Add ons, most Terrans (at least the ones I face in high Masters) still don't think to protect them against a group of Oracles except until you destroy one or two of them. Plus when you've gotten the hang of baby sitting your Oracles and know the tells of Widow Mines and can react quickly enough to not get hit, what you can do is abuse any poor placement of the Mine and pick off outlying SCVs, or SCVs building structures and Marines (assuming the numbers are good enough that you don't take a poor fight) I have been experimenting with getting out 2 Phoenix's once the Robo is done so that any defensive Mines can be spotted with the Observer and the two Phoenix's can fly in, one picks up the other kills, leaving that location defenceless (As Terrans who blindly defend with Widow Mines, or with rushed Widow Mines rarely put up a Turret to (and even if they do, 4 Oracles kill a Turret pretty damn fast)) What you can also try do if you're brave is with the Observer spotting the Mine, you can fly in with their attack active and focus it down, it should die before it gets the shot off but I have not experimented with this just yet. So your damage output to mineral lines will be delayed. But as I also said in the original post, this build isn't entirely designed to do crippling damage, it certainly has the potential to, I have been in games vs Terrans on 3 base vs 3 base with 30 more Probes to SCVs and a very large supply lead with no army to army conflicts happening. The main intention of this build is to keep Terran on the defensive all game until you have the 3 bases a Protoss needs to make their most effective army and be able to rebuild it. The build makes unspotted drops a near impossibility (assuming you keep Revelation up constantly) and allows you to be very greedy because of it because you can remain in a defensive stance with your main army all game, whereas the Terran is running around after these pesky Oracles. | ||
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ensign_lee
United States1178 Posts
Even when I lose, this style of playing is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the normal "sit back and try not to get my head bashed in with medivac drops" playstyle. And it helps me learn to multitask better as you're right, the demands are pretty high. :D | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On July 29 2013 13:42 ensign_lee wrote: Kracen, thanks so much! This build is AWESOME! Even when I lose, this style of playing is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the normal "sit back and try not to get my head bashed in with medivac drops" playstyle. And it helps me learn to multitask better as you're right, the demands are pretty high. :D You will get slaughtered when the t is on top of his scouting. The 10 min push is going to be even stronger, cause there is no reason to mix marus in. Also in the OP there is no mentioning of building a Zealot, my scouting scv is gonna make you cry when you spot the 95% ebay (maybe even let it finish for a fast turret). | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I'm not exactly sure but I believe a command center first build or even an 12/12 reaper expand will have sufficient units to minimize or nullify your oracles and the best situation (not losing them) would still lead to a Terran advantage. You mention to get 2 more gateways before robotics when you scout that there is a bio build instead of factory followup (minedrop) but I'd say that you should get the robo regardless. MSC with photon overcharge and the oracle count you have will make you save against anything that a bio player can throw at you relatively early. The first push that is dangerous and I believe would potentially kill you (when adding 2 gates before robo) is a medivac stim timing at 9:45 (medivacs pop). It has enough DPS to shred gateway/oracle and your colossi are late, because you delayed the robo. As mentioned, I'm not certain how this works out, but a delayed robo for the reason that Terran goes bio isn't really what you want to do, as you cannot punish a player that already invested into tech heavily in addition to having the MSC. I also believe, the earlier robo would allow for an immortal if really neccessary. Most Terrans will sit in their base vs oracles, as oracles are annoying and can always pick off a few workers here and there, so you should play greedy behind it, to make up for your investment. Just my take on it, (1800p Terran EU right now if that matters to anyone here) | ||
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On July 29 2013 15:27 gingerfluffmuff wrote: You will get slaughtered when the t is on top of his scouting. The 10 min push is going to be even stronger, cause there is no reason to mix marus in. Also in the OP there is no mentioning of building a Zealot, my scouting scv is gonna make you cry when you spot the 95% ebay (maybe even let it finish for a fast turret). Actually due to the fact that you have 4 Oracles running around, the damage done on SCVs, stray Marines, potentially even Tech lab researching Stim, Reactor on Starport ect... The 10 minute push is either so delayed its worthless, or is so much smaller its basically just the Terran gifting you free units at that point. As for the Engi block, you go right ahead, I don't intend on expanding until my first Oracle is on the way or done anyway, it delays it by a little bit, but not as much as you think it would as I have a Stalker out and MSC asap so I'll get the block out of the way. Also as I've said, Turrets are a minor inconvenience in mineral lines, I'll be fine picking off ones at the edges instead and as you pull away toward the Turret you lose mining time to. On July 29 2013 15:40 NarutO wrote: Hey there, I'm not exactly sure but I believe a command center first build or even an 12/12 reaper expand will have sufficient units to minimize or nullify your oracles and the best situation (not losing them) would still lead to a Terran advantage. You mention to get 2 more gateways before robotics when you scout that there is a bio build instead of factory followup (minedrop) but I'd say that you should get the robo regardless. MSC with photon overcharge and the oracle count you have will make you save against anything that a bio player can throw at you relatively early. The first push that is dangerous and I believe would potentially kill you (when adding 2 gates before robo) is a medivac stim timing at 9:45 (medivacs pop). It has enough DPS to shred gateway/oracle and your colossi are late, because you delayed the robo. As mentioned, I'm not certain how this works out, but a delayed robo for the reason that Terran goes bio isn't really what you want to do, as you cannot punish a player that already invested into tech heavily in addition to having the MSC. I also believe, the earlier robo would allow for an immortal if really neccessary. Most Terrans will sit in their base vs oracles, as oracles are annoying and can always pick off a few workers here and there, so you should play greedy behind it, to make up for your investment. Just my take on it, (1800p Terran EU right now if that matters to anyone here) Due to the fast Stalker and MSC fast Reapers can be denied still, perhaps losing 1-2 Probes but that is more a pain than a death sentence. Also, I've recently been playing about with getting Robo before Gates regardless and have been having good success. And as I said above that 9:45-10 minute push does not happen, the damage you deal and the multi tasking you force out of the Terran means that it is so delayed that I almost never see it at a strength in which it is actually a threat. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I can see them not working vs a less comitted stargate, but 4 oracles 12/12 Reaper -> Minedrop -> Bio Push out when your first set of Medivacs finish (@10:10ish) with 3 Medivacs, around 6 Marauders and 26 Marines, and 53 SCVs at home. CC First with 3rd CC Push out with your first 2 Medivacs (@9:45ish) with 52 SCVs, around 20 Marines and 6 Marauders, 2 Medivacs, and Stim/+1 Attack Bombers Reaper FE: Push out when your first 2 Medivacs pop (@9:45ish) with 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack. DemusliM Style: Benchmark: When your Stimpack finishes (@9:50ish), you should have 4 Medivacs, 48 SCVs, and around 22 Marines and 3 Marauders All of those timings are crucial and will not by delayed by a lot (if any) due to oracles, as you either have high marine count or mines. As mentioned, getting colossi early is crucial as the timings from Terran murder gateway+oracle and have enough healing power to make photon overcharge less of a problem. Example: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-mcs-oracle-expand/ "However, opening with this build delays your expand a lot more than if you had opened straight 1gate FE. Because you have less economy, the midgame Terran timing attacks with medivacs are even scarier than normal (unless you do damage with your Oracles), so you actually have to do damage to attempt to transition into the midgame. Remember that Oracles have very little health, so you have to babysit your units if you have any hope of not losing them instantly to a well placed turret/mine." | ||
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On July 29 2013 16:25 NarutO wrote: Samples of Terran timings if played correctly that I fear will demolish you, as he is ahead in economy. 'The damage you deal' is not something you should consider, as a good Terran might minimize or even nullify it and even taken into consideration he would build 3 turrets, he can cut a few marauders as your AoE would be late and potentially even speed up his timing. Also the multitasking you force out of Terran applies to you as well, if you don't multitask well, you might end up losing an oracle or just not being effective with them. I'd actually love to play vs you and that build to see how below mentioned timings work. (Investment is 750 gas, 4 oracle, msc, stalker with very late gas 3+4) I can see them not working vs a less comitted stargate, but 4 oracles 12/12 Reaper -> Minedrop -> Bio Push out when your first set of Medivacs finish (@10:10ish) with 3 Medivacs, around 6 Marauders and 26 Marines, and 53 SCVs at home. CC First with 3rd CC Push out with your first 2 Medivacs (@9:45ish) with 52 SCVs, around 20 Marines and 6 Marauders, 2 Medivacs, and Stim/+1 Attack Bombers Reaper FE: Push out when your first 2 Medivacs pop (@9:45ish) with 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack. DemusliM Style: Benchmark: When your Stimpack finishes (@9:50ish), you should have 4 Medivacs, 48 SCVs, and around 22 Marines and 3 Marauders All of those timings are crucial and will not by delayed by a lot (if any) due to oracles, as you either have high marine count or mines. As mentioned, getting colossi early is crucial as the timings from Terran murder gateway+oracle and have enough healing power to make photon overcharge less of a problem. I believe you're looking at this fairly incorrectly, yes this timings are strong, I know them all too well as I myself am I high ranking Protoss like you a high ranking Terran, (at this moment I am 200 points behind you and I am still rising) You're making the assumption that practically 0 damage is dealt with these 4 Oracles, which is near impossible, you will deal damage. you will kill a handful of Marines as the Terran expects 1-2 Oracles, not 4 and therefore may only have 6-12 Marines on guard, and 4 Oracles make short work of them, halving the Marine count of all those pushes instantly. You will kill SCVs on the outer edges and building structures like Refineries, more Barracks, Factor, even Starport, which delays all of those pushes. You can even pick off Reactors and Tech labs (preferably ones researching stim/CS) incredibly fast when focused, even an instant SCV pull to repair is not always enough to save it delaying it the pushes even further. As for each one of the pushes, you have your Nexus Cannon, Gateway units and Oracles attacking as they kite back to kill that army so it will not in anyway demolish you assuming you play correctly. That is making the assumption you did 0 damage with your Oracles which as I said is practically impossible. | ||
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Seraphim_EU
14 Posts
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Matta
United States116 Posts
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On August 03 2013 04:37 Seraphim_EU wrote: Oracle is more and more being used in pro league as well. Hero used it during wcs couple of days ago. Looking forward to your build step by step vid or rep. I actually completely forgot to do it, I've just been too busy, barely been able to play on ladder let alone make the video but I'll get around to it as soon as I can. On August 03 2013 07:52 Matta wrote: I think I ran across this on the ladder two days ago and it shredded my Marauder/Marine/Hellbat/Medivac composition really quickly. I'm still really ignorant of quick, instinctual responses, but so far I'm reading mines as the appropriate response? Is there other Terran defenses/attacks that you've found you've struggled with? Personally I find that the things this build struggles with is almost entirely player fault, when I make a mistake is where it falls short. However, if there is anything the Terran can directly do is be completely on the ball, Turrets at crucial locations, Mines in supporting locations as well... Just deny me any long term damage the best you can to have the best chance later on in the match. | ||
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Seraphim_EU
14 Posts
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Jay Arell
Norway33 Posts
My views on the build: Pros: -Agree with Kracen, this build is guaranteed to do some damage, as you will never expect 4 oracles coming in all of a sudden. In some cases, this build is just an auto win. -Always knows where the main bulk of the opponents army is, therefore being fairly safe to drops. Cons: -The gas investment really delays any tech, and is susceptible to scv pulls (since templar tech will be delayed). -You will a lot of the time end up behind on upgrades, due to the oracles. Looking forward to some thoughts on my thoughts :D | ||
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geoIOPS
40 Posts
Thank you, very good write up and responses | ||
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On August 05 2013 03:43 Jay Arell wrote: I just played a game against this (rank 1 diamond, facing low masters/top diamonds) and won, but the build is really strong. The 4 oracles caught me completely off guard and sniped my stim as well as a reactor, really delaying my 2 medivac timing. When i got to his base he already had 2 colossi up, and kept revelating my army so i couldnt drop. I figured after 15 min all the gas he spent on oracles, wouldve delayed his storm and went for an scv pull to get the win. Upon checking the replay, I saw that his storm was about halfway done when i hit (about 16:20, which is usually too late). My views on the build: Pros: -Agree with Kracen, this build is guaranteed to do some damage, as you will never expect 4 oracles coming in all of a sudden. In some cases, this build is just an auto win. -Always knows where the main bulk of the opponents army is, therefore being fairly safe to drops. Cons: -The gas investment really delays any tech, and is susceptible to scv pulls (since templar tech will be delayed). -You will a lot of the time end up behind on upgrades, due to the oracles. Looking forward to some thoughts on my thoughts :D 600 Gas early on is not an investment most people like to make for that very reason, it delays tech so much. But what you can do because of it, is play like Zerg, expand, build Probes, and only build units when they attack because you have constant vision. Think of it like having a pack of Mutalisks, you know where their army is at all times, whilst you're just building your production, tech and economy up, the second they move out you pump out units (Gateway units that is, rest of the time is spent on HT and Colossus with consistent production.) As you can see in the replays I have provided I sit on only a few units until they move out, in which I then have an influx. You will be behind on upgrades, it is something you really cannot avoid as you need to tech to Colossus and HT, however due to the damage you deal and the tech of theirs you delay, I believe being slightly behind is acceptable as they won't have the army they want when they do a 1-1 or 2-2 timing. As for the SCV pull move, it works sometimes, if they have Storm its very unlikely. If they're on top of their tech tree they should have Storm in time though. On August 05 2013 04:25 geoIOPS wrote: Is the best response from Terran just good placement of turrets/mines/marines or do you think there is a counter-attack option while you are spending so much resources on oracles. Also do you have any experience against a fast viking using this build? Thank you, very good write up and responses In my experience, the best thing a Terran can do versus this is remain calm and play well, defend key areas (Mineral lines, Tech labs, Reactors ect.) Place your Turrets to fully cover Mineral lines, don't have a portion of it slightly out of the radius, as I will happily force you to move all your SCVs to one side of the patches. Mines are very easily spotted for a good player, and should almost never (unless forced into it) fly over one, therefore what I would recommend putting them in defensive but slightly more obscure locations where we wouldn't initially look whilst moving them, other than that I can't think of any way to use Mines to kill Oracles, in Mineral lines they just act as a deterrent and I'll just do damage else where. One of the replays should be a fast Viking and I've seen it several times and it is quite simply. 1-2 Vikings isn't that much of a threat to a light unit with fairly decent Shields/Hull you can easily dance around it with better speed and you can even take a few shots to pick off some Workers without much worry. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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Kracen
United Kingdom59 Posts
On August 05 2013 06:09 aldochillbro wrote: I think what naruto is saying is that if the terran plays correctly and minimizes the damage then it's a bad build. It's not a bad thing and many pro builds do it, but you should be honest about it and realize that if you do no damage then a 945 stim medivac timing could probably kill you. so just be conscious that it has a tiny bit of an allin factor to it and accept it I was not disputing that a 9:45 Stim Medivac timing would likely kill someone who has expended 600 gas on non splash damage tech and lacked unit control. I was disputing the claim that this will do 0 damage as that is near impossible, even when top players do everything right, you still do damage, heck even if its killing the SCV building the Starport or a few SCVs on gas, you do damage that will delay the timing. Even in matches where I played really poorly and was careless with my Oracles doing minimum damage I have defended the timing with the use of a good unit balance and Nexus Cannon, also, assuming you macro correctly, you should have at least 1 Colossus done in time. | ||
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