|
People seem to so easily forget the first seasons of GSL: awful map pools (compared to now) and large amounts of rushes. It took a large number of dedicated players (attracted by salaries/prize pools) and better maps to pull 1v1 out of that situation. Finding map design problems and exploring cheeses so their defenses can be calculated requires community support. You can't expect 2v2 to magically get out of the same rut when it doesn't have any of the backing 1v1 has had for years now.
Also, I don't understand the balance argument. There has yet to be proof that any match-up in 2v2 is broken beyond map changes. In any case, since when did imbalance stop people from playing? There have been nearly 30 patches containing balance adjustments since beta started. And many would say that the game is the closest it's ever been to balanced for 1v1. Does that mean that people were only wasting their time playing 1v1 before this point and no one was having fun? Should we not bother with 1v1 now because there will probably be more balance changes coming (unless you think it's balanced now in which case will you stop playing when that next patch comes out)?
I can understand "I'm not interested" or "the very unlikely chance that 2v2 is broken in a significant number of match ups that can't be fixed by maps scares me from becoming invested" or "I have no friends and cannot sufficiently operate two keyboards/mice at the same time", but these unfounded conjectures that the quality of games can't improve or that there is some imbalance really do not contribute to this conversation.
SC2 is a strategy game. It is about figuring out and executing strategies. The 2v2 format offers an untapped wealth of that with twists in the strategy and executing that 1v1 can never have. Seems intriguing enough to me.
|
Hi guys. I'm currently in top8 diamond as Protoss along with a good friend of mine (T) which is only ~gold level in 1v1. We never allin, we like to play "standard" (like, 1v1 standard) macro games since IMO it is more satisfying and educational. The funny thing is, at this level a lot of people (I won't say the majority though) play this way... while in high masters it is the opposite like most of you described: everybody makes some kind of early push to either kill the opponents or survive their inevitable push, due to maps/compositions' imbalance. So, I guess we're happy to be stuck in diamond.  The same is true for 3v3 and 4v4 as well.
Back to the map design, here's a short list of what I find to be incredibly stupid in the current map pool (for reference, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps/Ladder_Maps#2v2) – since I’m very far from the top I would like to hear your thoughts:
- Geosync Quarry: this makes me REALLY mad, because it’s probably what Blizzard intended to be a “macro” map. To balance (???) the in-base expansion we have a triple ramp + a huge backdoor + a lot of space for reapers.
- Molten Crater: decent map IMO, although a tank on low ground can siege half the main base.
- Graystone Ravine: on this map cannon rushes are a serious threat for the 3 and 9 o’clock positions. Not only there is a spot for the infamous 3 pylon block behind the minerals, the worst thing is that the natural’s patches are right below the main’s, so pylons and cannons placed there are in range of the main BUT they’re slightly out of sight and they can’t be surrounded. On top of that, the same bases (3 and 9 o’clock) are the most vulnerable to air and reaper harass. Smart choice, uh?
- The Bone Trench: only thing I could say is that the rush distance is short and that at least one natural per team is too much exposed.
- Reclamation: first of all, the ramps are too distant from each other, which makes it hard to defend the ally (hello double 6 pool). But what I really dislike is the fact that any walloff is completely exposed… like, you can literally kill the pylon on the ramp from behind the ledge in a safe way. Apart from this, taking a third on this map is a nightmare.
- Reflection: a lot of Blizzard staples here. Relatively short rush distance, backdoors (although well implemented I must say), in-base natural vulnerable to any kind of harass (including siege tanks from two different spots), completely exposed natural for the unlucky guy.
- Hunting Grounds: its shape gave me an headache the first time I played it, so I vetoed it instantly - but I still don’t know where should I position the army to be relatively safe.
- Overwatch: ok, this should be THE macro map due to its size and number of bases. But… of course it isn’t, because some smart designer decided that the unlucky guy has to choose between an expansion in the middle of nowhere and the wonderful natural ON LOW GROUND, which is easily siegeable from high ground behind the smokescreen.
Just my 2 cents of course.
|
Loving the responses, must admit I lolled hard at "I cannot operate to keyboards/mice at the same time".
Got a beautiful mental image of flash macroing two computers at once up to low masters 2v2 XD
|
I play 2x2 as random between my practice for 1x1.
To answer your question, there is not much spectator pull--much less a higher chance to get a longer and more intense style of game.
If i had to voice my concern as to why, it's pretty simple. There are strategies that are easier (and easier to recover from) to perform when you have one other on your side of the map. I've seen many regular 2x2 players who lack a sense of urgency or basic fundamental RTS skill.
I would not place all or a majority of the blame on map pool.
There is also this stigma that 2x2 or teamplay players are just flatout bad or tend to be cheesy.
I don't necessarily agree with that opinion, but the cheese is true at 'higher' levels of 2x2 play.
Let's briefly list some of the strategies/tactics that are more common these days.
I personally don't use any team-based timings with my allies. That's part of the fun freestyling in 2x2 i guess. You can get away with lots of stuff.
-12rax/13gas reactor hellion spam with a zerg ally.
-some variation of 14gas/14pool, remove gas workers upon starting speedling, and flooding zerglings off 15-16 workers past first inject to hopefully do runbys and stall a protoss opponent.
-(terran, terran) reaper + banshee to force a teammate to help the other, into bio tank, into tank sieging your ramp/main). this style is extra abusive on certain maps and i've seen it a lot pre-bansee buff.
-blink all-ins are still popular with protoss because of the mothership core. 2 gas openings into tech-harass are popular in general. Hell, even double 4-gate still happens
-generally, you play bio to snipe expansions or to overpower once you get our first set of medivacs, and you play mech/biomech to defend a midgame attack, then to deny any third bases. this is stressed in 2x2 because you will go longer on two bases in teamgames, especially if you've taken some sort of damage or lack scouting info. there are a lot of maps where taking a third is dangerous and forces you to play a directed unit composition.
2x2 at higher levels can still be very close and taxing. i would just have to say that the downside is that it's more or less difficult to punish an opponent on your own (less if they are reliant on their teammates throughout the game).
|
Not to mention that even the highest level commentators have problems keeping up with the amount of action that can go down at the highest level of 2v2.
|
I think 2v2 can be successful based on what little I knew about 2v2 for BW. It was fun, had interesting unit combinations, and the tactics and strategies were interesting. Yes, on individual-ramp maps, there was a lot of "we can't let the enemy army unite" and "we have to backstab alot," but that was just part of 2v2. Even though stuff like bionic TvP isn't viable in BW, bionic+ling vs zealot/goon/ling worked. Where else would you see those fights?
|
This thread is so lol its amazing. What is gonna be even awesomer is if i get temp banned for low content. Particularly when the comments in this thread are so bad.
Maybe protech needs to set people straight.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On July 16 2013 09:41 Big G wrote:Hi guys. I'm currently in top8 diamond as Protoss along with a good friend of mine (T) which is only ~gold level in 1v1. We never allin, we like to play "standard" (like, 1v1 standard) macro games since IMO it is more satisfying and educational. The funny thing is, at this level a lot of people (I won't say the majority though) play this way... while in high masters it is the opposite like most of you described: everybody makes some kind of early push to either kill the opponents or survive their inevitable push, due to maps/compositions' imbalance. So, I guess we're happy to be stuck in diamond. The same is true for 3v3 and 4v4 as well. Back to the map design, here's a short list of what I find to be incredibly stupid in the current map pool (for reference, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps/Ladder_Maps#2v2) – since I’m very far from the top I would like to hear your thoughts: - Geosync Quarry: this makes me REALLY mad, because it’s probably what Blizzard intended to be a “macro” map. To balance (???) the in-base expansion we have a triple ramp + a huge backdoor + a lot of space for reapers. - Molten Crater: decent map IMO, although a tank on low ground can siege half the main base. - Graystone Ravine: on this map cannon rushes are a serious threat for the 3 and 9 o’clock positions. Not only there is a spot for the infamous 3 pylon block behind the minerals, the worst thing is that the natural’s patches are right below the main’s, so pylons and cannons placed there are in range of the main BUT they’re slightly out of sight and they can’t be surrounded. On top of that, the same bases (3 and 9 o’clock) are the most vulnerable to air and reaper harass. Smart choice, uh? - The Bone Trench: only thing I could say is that the rush distance is short and that at least one natural per team is too much exposed. - Reclamation: first of all, the ramps are too distant from each other, which makes it hard to defend the ally (hello double 6 pool). But what I really dislike is the fact that any walloff is completely exposed… like, you can literally kill the pylon on the ramp from behind the ledge in a safe way. Apart from this, taking a third on this map is a nightmare. - Reflection: a lot of Blizzard staples here. Relatively short rush distance, backdoors (although well implemented I must say), in-base natural vulnerable to any kind of harass (including siege tanks from two different spots), completely exposed natural for the unlucky guy. - Hunting Grounds: its shape gave me an headache the first time I played it, so I vetoed it instantly - but I still don’t know where should I position the army to be relatively safe. - Overwatch: ok, this should be THE macro map due to its size and number of bases. But… of course it isn’t, because some smart designer decided that the unlucky guy has to choose between an expansion in the middle of nowhere and the wonderful natural ON LOW GROUND, which is easily siegeable from high ground behind the smokescreen. Just my 2 cents of course.
Some of the maps are awful. But they are an upgrade over the ones in WOL. Which is quite sad really.
|
On July 16 2013 03:57 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:58 Sjokola wrote:On July 16 2013 00:28 nateomfg wrote:
The game is balanced for 1v1, not for 2v2. That's not entirely true. The reaper nerf in WoL was this hard because double proxy reaper in 2v2 was to strong (especially vs zerg). Edit: Sorry was mostly because t/z teams were to strong. Um... what? Reaper was nerfed (in terms of its build time) in WoL because of 5 rax reaper, not because of 2v2.
5rax reaper was very strong in tvz but David Kim said they nerded it because 90% of the top 2v2 teams were tz teams. And they played reaper-ling.
Check the interview.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162815
It's not common knowledge But he game balance is influenced by both team games and lower leagues.
|
One of the reasons to why people doesnt play competitevly in 2v2 is because there are no high league in 2v2, basically every platinum premade can get to masters in 2's if they play enough games. It's not fun to play serious 2v2 because there are nothing to aim at after masters and that is so incredebly easy to get in teamgames
|
What if democracy actually happens and we can vote to choose which community-made 2v2 maps go into ladder map pool next season? I'd be thrilled to play 2v2 games on better maps. I think SC2 is flexible enough to have balanced "enough" 2v2 games with proper map design.
|
That's what I'm talking about FUS. A real GM league for 2v2 instead of just looking a the global ranking system every day or so. Real tournaments. It would take a bit off effort on blizz's part but we could have a whole new amazing game within our game that we've been ignoring this whole time.
|
In a nutshell, 2v2 simply allows too many possibilities for two people to gang up on one person, and smash them easily if they try anything cool or non-1 base. Most all 2v2's on high level result in teams of people that excel at 1 base pressure, or some form of dual all-in. Trying to play a "Standard" 1v1 style or anything that has a level of uniqueness or merit, often is extremely futile, as the other team will see this and capitalize on their ability to just smash it with an early pressure,(especially if your build was more macro oriented- your ally won't be able to hold a dual attack.. usually).
Take a look at that Masters 2v2 guide that some dude put out a few months ago- look at all his recommended builds and strategies for all his team setups. Almost all of them include some 1-base aggression. Almost every zerg opening he said to use was a 10 pool opening... and this is masters we're talking about here. It's unfortunately just the nature of the beast.
Granted, there are exceptions, but for the most part high level players will rip any sort of creative /greedy/risky builds apart with a mass of tier 1 units, thrown two-fold at you.
I would say that if anyone could make 2v2 interesting, it'd be koreans. I'd like to at least watch like some show matches, just for fun, and see what kind of stuff happens. But yeah ultimately, there's just not as much room for creativity , and still actually being able to win high level stuff.
|
Really interesting discussion.
My Teammate and I are a PP-Team and were highmasters 2on2 in WOL and then fell to Midmasters in HOTS and now due to me being pissed and trying to learn a different race because PP is on some maps just unplayable - Highdiamond. Though I just didn`t have fun playing other Races and decided to go back to Protoss. I was Masters 1on1, but don`t really like to play 1on1.
I don`t think builds are the biggest problem, as people already stated it`s the mappool. On a lot of maps we can defend some of the opbuilds on others there is 0% Chance from the beginning.
My take as a PP-Player on the maps:
Geosync Quarry against any team that includes a Zerg it`s really painful to play as the Ramp is hard to wall-off(Reaperling, Canonrush/ling,double 6pool). I don`t mind it against other Teamcompositions.
Graystone Ravine , not a perfect map but we usually get really good macrogames going here, you can wall the lowground and Reapers can`t jump from the side of the base in.
Hunting Ground - against every Team that includes Zerg you are going to get raped, as you are spread thin and there are 2 entrances to your main at the start. Also if they don`t rush you they can just easily expand and as a PP-Team it`s quite hard to get early scouting. So you have to play safe and are just ridiculously behind and get overpowered in midgame if they macro..
Molten Crater One of the better maps pretty much like graystone Ravine, you can wall of the lowground together. Splitmapsituation happen a lot. Can be really annoying against Reapers as they can jump from base to base.
Overwatch Meh it`s a big map and macrogames happen. Though it get`s hard to take a third as it is really wide open.
Reclamation Ridiculous. Ramps really far apart, so a TZ or pretty much any ZX combo is going to win against PP.
Reflection quite awful map, better than some others so it has to stay in.
The Bone Trench Really exposed bases, quite hard to hold, so again Zergteams rape you.
Older maps:
The Boneyard I actually thought that map was quite ok, def better than some shit that is in the mappool right now. No idea why they removed it.
Overall:
If you think about how 1on1 matchups work you know how the maps should be build. For example in PvZ you open Forge or a Gatewayexpand, and eventually you wall off somewhere to safely expand. If you open Forge against a ZT-Team you lose against Reapers or your ally has to defend you with stalkers. If you wall of against Terran he just kills your buildings with marauders. While Chargelots are good against Terran they are really bad vs Zerg(Most of the time) etc
How should maps be build:
I`d say Graystone-Ravine and Molten-Crater are good for orientation. The lowground is easily wallable together against Zerg + X -combos and each player has an easy to take natural. Reapers + Proxy2gate are really strong for example and I`m actually not sure if you could stop it as a PP-Team(Once again you defend a Proxy2Gate with 2Gates of your own while you defend Reapers with stalkers). I always thought that 2on2 should have a different balancing than 2on2, there don`t even have to be big changes.
A small change like Reaper requires techlab would make up for so much, the Reaper is not only strong as a harassingunit but gives enormous scoutinginformation which is in 2on2 even more important than in 1on1.
Though I`d already be happy if maps would be changed, so maybe we should start a petition to change the 2on2 mappool.
|
Nice post, NiSash.
I always had ~70% winrate as PT on The Boneyard, in fact I heard that it was a bit imbalanced for Zx teams - although a cross-positions only variant should have been a lot better.
Playing PP on certain maps must be a nightmare, the fact that early game defense is balanced around force fields hinders any kind of cooperation. I'm still not sure how to defend against a double 6pool on Reclamation... last time I stopped probe production at 15, walling with gate-forge-pylon, then cannon + whatever I could have had in time, but eventually I died anyways. not to mention that against TZ/RR/RZ I often put the gateway close to the nexus since Photon Overcharge can't even reach the ramp.
Anyway, whenever I face a PP team I''m almost certain that they'll do some kind of 1-base allin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
