I play on the Korean server a lot and as a Protoss I find myself struggling in the PvT matchup and some of the cool tip top players often use this ultra fast proxy stargate and I am kind of really surprised at how they make it work even though the Terrans have access to reapers early on to scout. The bo goes something like this:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 (x2) assimilator etc...
stargate @ approx. 3:27
this will get oracles ultra fast and you can go for 4 gates and really destroy the players. my friend (he is a barcode) on EU has defeated notable names like Goody, those kind of people and a ton of gms and basically his strat goes like this:
proxy oracle get 4 gates expand go up to 6 oracle wait for terran to scan expo, salvage all bunkers then kill him
so basically I dunno how but reapers always can scout out my 4 gates and even though most korean GM terrans get like a 4 min e-bay and a reaper they still just get owned by this oracle all in. i am really interested and would like your thoughts on it as well as any tips. i personally think its a very powerful strategy because many people still do it and its been here all along hots.
thank you teamliquid and thank you for your time.
edit: i do not really have success too much with this style so i need help to make it work like my friends do.
On June 30 2013 08:01 Jackowacko wrote: I play on the Korean server a lot and as a Protoss I find myself struggling in the PvT matchup and some of the cool tip top players often use this ultra fast proxy stargate and I am kind of really surprised at how they make it work even though the Terrans have access to reapers early on to scout. The bo goes something like this:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 (x2) assimilator etc...
stargate @ approx. 3:27
this will get oracles ultra fast and you can go for 4 gates and really destroy the players. my friend (he is a barcode) on EU has defeated notable names like Goody, those kind of people and a ton of gms and basically his strat goes like this:
proxy oracle get 4 gates expand go up to 6 oracle wait for terran to scan expo, salvage all bunkers then kill him
so basically I dunno how but reapers always can scout out my 4 gates and even though most korean GM terrans get like a 4 min e-bay and a reaper they still just get owned by this oracle all in. i am really interested and would like your thoughts on it as well as any tips. i personally think its a very powerful strategy because many people still do it and its been here all along hots.
thank you teamliquid and thank you for your time.
Any decent player would note the timing of the expand and not salvage those bunkers. If Terran does not scout the tech because it is hidden, then he defaults into building a turret each in the mineral line to counter-act drop DT play as well as stargate-oracle play.
Now you are behind in econ. Your stargate tech will be found eventually and taken out. Now you are behind in tech as well.
Not saying it ends the game right there, but it puts you at a disadvantage and relies on the Terran making mistakes. You could play the same strat with 3 gates; get your econ out sooner, while still being able to do formidable damage to Terran economy if the Terran player indeed salvages bunkers and does not get turrets.
On June 30 2013 08:01 Jackowacko wrote: I play on the Korean server a lot and as a Protoss I find myself struggling in the PvT matchup and some of the cool tip top players often use this ultra fast proxy stargate and I am kind of really surprised at how they make it work even though the Terrans have access to reapers early on to scout. The bo goes something like this:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 (x2) assimilator etc...
stargate @ approx. 3:27
this will get oracles ultra fast and you can go for 4 gates and really destroy the players. my friend (he is a barcode) on EU has defeated notable names like Goody, those kind of people and a ton of gms and basically his strat goes like this:
proxy oracle get 4 gates expand go up to 6 oracle wait for terran to scan expo, salvage all bunkers then kill him
so basically I dunno how but reapers always can scout out my 4 gates and even though most korean GM terrans get like a 4 min e-bay and a reaper they still just get owned by this oracle all in. i am really interested and would like your thoughts on it as well as any tips. i personally think its a very powerful strategy because many people still do it and its been here all along hots.
thank you teamliquid and thank you for your time.
Any decent player would note the timing of the expand and not salvage those bunkers. If Terran does not scout the tech because it is hidden, then he defaults into building a turret each in the mineral line to counter-act drop DT play as well as stargate-oracle play.
Now you are behind in econ. Your stargate tech will be found eventually and taken out. Now you are behind in tech as well.
Not saying it ends the game right there, but it puts you at a disadvantage and relies on the Terran making mistakes. You could play the same strat with 3 gates; get your econ out sooner, while still being able to do formidable damage to Terran economy if the Terran player indeed salvages bunkers and does not get turrets.
i think you misunderstood the strategy
it's an all in and not an economy macro build
its not to kill economy or workers, you get so many oracles and he will know that, he will get the turret in each main, but you get the oracles to kill the army of his, its kind of similar to the concept of zenios 3 hatch baneling bust in that he leaves the third hatch and then when all scouting is denied, zenio owns the player with the baneling bust, making the opponent think zenio is playing a greedy macro style as usual response to FFE.
theres a much better version of this that IS economically focused... same opener but you get a stalker out to pull marines to the front while the first oracle goes to the mineral line. NEVER BUILD MORE THAN 2 ORACLES. its too much gas commitment to allow an easy transition unless you can end the game right there (not guaranteed)
The best follow up is an expansion off of the 1gate with the proxy stargate with a 3gate pressure follow up with the oracles.
SO: -->Proxy Oracle pressure with stalker ----> 3gate follow up behind expansion -------> keep macroing and transition to colossus OR zealot archon
This is designed to give you a significant early game advantage, slowing down the terran's tech and making it much easier for protoss to take a third. If protoss has an economy and tech advantage vs terran... its GG
On June 30 2013 08:51 MetalxStorm wrote: theres a much better version of this that IS economically focused... same opener but you get a stalker out to pull marines to the front while the first oracle goes to the mineral line. NEVER BUILD MORE THAN 2 ORACLES. its too much gas commitment to allow an easy transition unless you can end the game right there (not guaranteed)
The best follow up is an expansion off of the 1gate with the proxy stargate with a 3gate pressure follow up with the oracles.
SO: -->Proxy Oracle pressure with stalker ----> 3gate follow up behind expansion -------> keep macroing and transition to colossus OR zealot archon
This is designed to give you a significant early game advantage, slowing down the terran's tech and making it much easier for protoss to take a third. If protoss has an economy and tech advantage vs terran... its GG
the all in is much better i think. that is heros build you listed I believe
the build I listed beat Flash, even after the proxy oracles and 3gate follow up didn't outright win. If you want to all in feel free, but once you hit a certain level of player it wont work.
If you really think the build you listed is better, than link me a vod of someone beating Innovation or Flash with it
On June 30 2013 09:36 MetalxStorm wrote: the build I listed beat Flash, even after the proxy oracles and 3gate follow up didn't outright win. If you want to all in feel free, but once you hit a certain level of player it wont work.
If you really think the build you listed is better, than link me a vod of someone beating Innovation or Flash with it
Hmm well sadly it didn't beat any players of those caliber.
Can you show me the games of the 3 gate follow up vs Innovation or Flash? The all-in I listed works in the top 200-top 100 GM range of Korea so I thought it'd be pretty good (bunch of barcodes though, so I don't know the names of the players). The link to the games would be cool though.
This game Flash e-bay blocks Dear but its essentially the same idea.
Not I have tried both versions and I have had much greater success with this one. The thing here is that you are guaranteed to do economic damage with your oracle if the terran opens with any tech or fast expand build (including reapers)
If you scout reaper keep your stalker at home, if there is only marines bring your stalker to defend proxy + apply pressure at front. Basically, terran will lose scvs, need to throw down a bunker against the stalker and an early ebay + turret against oracle. If your macro is good and you have been making probes consistently, you will have a large advantage heading to the midgame.
The 3 gate push afterwards isnt even a big commitment, you should have 1.5 saturated bases and only a small force. All you are attempting here is to force additional bunkers and turrets and pull scvs off the line to repair the bunkers, giving you more of an advantage while you tech up and then take your third.
It loses to: fast factory opening or 2rax openings, which you can scout with your probe anyways (9scout). If you think they are not expanding than abandon ship and play it out standard.
9 Pylon 12 gate (send proxy probe) 14 gas 15 gas 17 cybercore 18 pylon(intentional supply block of few secs) @ 100% cybercore - stargate 20 stalker 22 warpgate 23 pylon 23 oracle (chronoboost till its out, takes 2 chronos) mothership core -- 2 gates (can switch order.. in this game he goes 2 gates i think because of ebay block) nexus -- sentry from gateway warp in 3 sentries when warpgates finished... move across map and bust
after 1st bust attempt (if game isnt over by now) 2 more gates (up to 5) twilight nexus forge blink +1 armor 2 more gates templar archives charge and +2 armor
It's not really clear that Dear wasn't planning on building a 2nd oracle since the loss of the pylons prevented him from doing so. A 1 base all-in variation of Dear's build probably would've killed Flash instantly in that game. Dear's expansion was super-delayed by the engineering bay block and if Flash hadn't screwed up so badly by trying to kill the pylons and wasting his money on bunkers, which heavily delayed his missile turret and lost him all of his marines, Dear wouldn't have gotten so far ahead so easily. Just because he's Flash doesn't mean he's perfect.
Re: the build I do however agree that 2 oracles is the optimal amount. Although sometimes a 3rd after a couple warp-in rounds is warranted.
I started messing around with these sorts of builds after I saw a 3gate/stargate opening on a hellokitty replay pack.
With gas geysers, there are two things you can do. If you delay your scout until after the 2nd pylon, you can get 3 chronos for constant probe production while going for double early gas without delaying your core, but the gas timings are a little different. I'll go 14 gas, 16 gas, 16 pylon and send a probe to build the proxy pylon. I find that lines up really well with gas and minerals coming out very even. When the proxy pylon finishes, I'll halt probe production at 20 probes briefly to get the stargate up a bit faster.
On 4 player maps, since you don't have to worry about proxy reapers, you can also go gas first before gateway and get the 2nd gas only significantly after the core is started. This may throw your opponents off if they see you didn't get two early gas, and therefore won't anticipate a proxy stargate.
Flyingbeer what time does your oracle pop? because if you proxy your second pylon the oracle comes out a lot faster?
And yes Flash's response wasn't perfect, but what makes you think random ladder players will play it out better than Flash? Dear proxied the Oracle right in Flash's face, Flash knew the Stargate was there as soon as it went down and he still couldn't deal with it. Its a ridiculously fast oracle, the terran will guarenteed take some damage unless he isn't expanding
Random ladder players, in Master's at least where I'm at, will play it safer than Flash and hence be less likely to make mistakes like that. Even still, Flash's response in that game was diamond league stuff. When you see a proxy stargate, your first priority should always be to get an engineering bay if your factory isn't going to be completed in time. Instead, he went:
bunker (in correct position) cancel bunker bunker (in wrong position) engineering bay bunker again (in position that he canceled)
And then he left all his marines out on the map when he knew they were going to die if he didn't get the 2nd pylon down in time, which is a huge risk for Flash to be taking.
I build my 3rd pylon in the proxy position, probably the same as Jackowacko. My method doesn't get a faster stargate, it just gets slightly more minerals.
I started doing the proxy oracle a long time ago on ladder when I saw a video by Halby losing to it. I stole the build and did VERY well with it. It produces an oracle in your opponents base at around 5:05.
Then a bunch of players did it in proleague, its often scouted now by a reaper.
Too many players are doing it now, its not a surprise any more so I stopped. Such is the metagame.
Solid play will destroy you. If Terran opens 1-1 or even 1-1-1 you are dead as your proxy oracle will deal no damage at all. You can continue building oracles, but if Terran keeps an eye on your stargate, this isn't going to happen. Proxy factory with mines or a minedrop potentially kills you straight away.
The scout will see little workers on the minerals , no warpgate as its too expensive, no MSC and stalker. He knows that 3:30 is proxy t iming and the oracle hits at 5:18 I think. The build (bust) is strong, especially since you can send 4-5 oracles in the main and kill tons of marines as he needs to send all, but if he has stim ready (and he should have that ready) at the time you push, you die. I don't think you can do it with a nexus, as you will not have 400 spare minerals.
Relying on the oracle to win is gimmicky and going for the super fast stargate is risky and awkward imo but I do like 3 gate stargate pressure or bust.
Stargate after stalker and warpgate tech and going 1 oracle into voids with 2 gates backup is a really strong bust yet rarely seen. It works great because walling off is still quite popular and the usual response to seeing an oracle is making turrets which is actually not helpful at all against busting the wall. Even if you can't kill the terran just busting a few buildings with the voidrays and expanding behind it is quite a fine play. With a phoenix or two you can easily protect yourself against drops and contain the terran a little bit while you're expansion works.
EPT
