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[G] TvZ Thor / Hellbat / Banshee

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Guillermoman
Profile Joined October 2012
24 Posts
June 04 2013 05:24 GMT
#1
Table of Contents

1. Opening Statement
2. How Many Ways Can You BBQ Drones?
3. Convergence Point: 2-2 Timing Attack
4. When to Alter Composition...?
5. Replay Pack

1. Opening Statement

This build is a concept taken from Starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty (WoL) and applied to Heart of the Swarm (HotS). This build became the standard for TvZ Mech, and the games I have seen so far in HotS have not explored modifying this mech play (actually, there has been very few mech games professionally played in HotS for any matchup).

For those not familiar with this build, the WoL version, the game’s opening aggression for Terran was using Hellions and Banshees to kill as many drones as possible. Behind this, the Terran secured 3 bases with a core building structure of 5 Factories (4 with Tech Labs, 1 with Reactor), 1 Starport with Tech Lab, and 2 Armories. By 17 minutes Terrna moves out with a maxxed out army with 2-2 upgrades. If your harass was strong enough to delay Brood Lords, Zerg would get crushed by your timing attack; if Zerg had the Broodlords, your mech push had to retreat and you had to buy time for a late game composition.

I play exclusively mech in all three matchups. In WoL I used the 2-2 timing attack I just described. When I started working on a build order and playstyle for mech vs Zerg, I decided to keep the concept of a 2-2 timing attack while adding HotS openings and concepts to it.

This guide is written based on how I remember builds, which is gas timings and benchmarking certain points of the game. If you want a fleshed out supply listing up to max, this guide will not be written to that rigidity.

2. How Many Ways Can You BBQ Drones?

The first aspect of playing this strategy is harassing while you expand to three bases. In Wings of Liberty the only way to kill drones was to use Hellions and Banshees to run into Zerg resource lines. The only real variations were if you got Blue Flame or Cloak for the Banshees for a more potent harass play or forgoing either to add Factories earlier. Heart of the Swarm adds to this Hellbat or Widow Mine drops.

Any of the current harass options can be used before converging to the Thor/Hellbat/Banshee 2/2 timing attack. However, there is a tradeoff between economy and teching toward your midgame harass play of choice. For the sake of completeness, I will list each of the openings I have used in order from most economical to most tech oriented.

Gasless plays:

CC First is pretty standard in the current Terran vs Zerg metagame. However, I get two Refineries to speed up gas production (2 in each gas will mine 166 gas/ min as opposed to 3 in 1 gas will mine 100 gas/min). Both of the openings listed can also be done with similar timings out of a 1 Barracks expand.

CC First -> Hellbat Drop

10 Supply Depot
14 Command Center
15 Barracks
17 Refinery x2 (2 in each gas)
19 Oribital Command x2

100 Gas -> Factory and add 3rd SCV to each gas
Factory Complete -> Armory, Starport, then Reactor on Factory
Starport Complete -> Reactor

The build times out to where you have 2 Dropships and 4 Hellbats at around 7:30 to drop. Ideally, you have Marines moving around the edges of your base to intercept scouting Overlords. Hiding this tech play in particular is ideal because Zerg static defense and Queens can hold it off if they see it coming.

CC First -> Blue Flame Hellion Banshee

10 Supply Depot
14 Command Center
15 Barracks
17 Refinery x2 (2 in each gas)
19 Oribital Command x2

100 Gas -> Factory
100 Gas -> Factory
1st Factory Complete -> Reactor on Factory, Starport
2nd Factory Complete -> Tech Lab -> Blue Flame

This build will time out to where you have exactly 150 gas for Blue Flame when the Tech Lab on the Factory is complete. The tactic once your pieces are in place is the same as in Wings of Liberty: use your Hellions and Banshees to move around the map, looking for a weak spot to run in and do damage.

Gas openings:

Reaper Expand

10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
12 Refinery
15 Orbital Command
15 Reaper OR Reactor

As a personal choice I like to option if I go for a Reaper or I get the Reactor for 2 Reapers. If you get a Reactor first you will have enough gas when the Reactor finishes for two Reapers (and then when the two Reapers finish, you have enough gas for the Factory). What I look for is if Zerg scouts with a Drone; if they do I get the Reaper; otherwise I go for the Reactor.

Fast Hellion/Banshee

10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command
15 Reaper OR Reactor

2 Marines -> Factory, Reactor on Barracks
Command Center
Factory Complete -> Starport

This opening takes the Hellion/Banshee mobile composition and gets it earlier than expected. I wouldn’t do this every game because the build order is so tech oriented that you must kill a sizeable amount of Drones to get beyond the opening.

Feel free to use other openings, as long as the opening is harass-oriented. I know that Avilo’s 2 Factory Widow Mine drop with Drilling Claws works well as an opening.

3. Convergence Point: 2-2 Timing Attack

You’re roasting a bunch of drones; now what do you do at home? What production should you have? Regardless of which opening you chose, the following is the in-order list of core buildings to follow through with your 2-2 push:

2 Factories (one with Tech Lab, one with Reactor)
2 Armories (complete before 9 minutes so 2-2 is ready by 15 minutes)
3rd Command Center
1 Starport with Tech Lab
3 more Factories (2 with Tech Lab, one with Reactor)

By following this list, you will have 5 Factories (3 with Tech Lab, 2 with Reactor) and a Starport with Tech Lab that serve as your core production. With constant production of Thors, Hellbats, and Banshees, you can max out in 15 minutes.

4. When to Alter Composition...?

Your Thor/Hellbat/Banshee composition is very strong against typical Zerg play. However, the Zerg opponent may tech to something that requires you to adjust your unit composition. Two units require an adjustment to your composition: Vipers and Swarm Hosts.

If Zerg makes Vipers, as the Mech player you must make Widow Mines. Having the Widow Mines at the front of your composition will allow you to burrow once Vipers are in sight to allow you to retreat (Widow Mines can shoot under Blinding Cloud). While the mobility of the Thor/Hellbat/Banshee composition helps against Blinding Cloud, Zerg will still get free shots off on your army because Zerg units are faster than the Thor and Hellbat.

If Zerg makes Swarm Hosts, the Mech player has two options: either Terran stops making Thors altogether and makes Siege Tanks or Terran is forced to make a sizeable amount of Ravens and use the mobility of Thor/Hellbat/Banshee to attack Zerg in multiple spots. If you scout the Swarm Hosts early enough (ie. see an 11 minute Infestation Pit), you can switch production to Siege Tanks and have enough Tanks by 15 minutes to make the push effective. If despite your best efforts you do not see the Swarm Hosts before the push, retreat because Thor/Hellbat/Banshee simply cannot fight a Locust army as it does not have the splash damage to kill the Locusts before they shoot.

Ravens are a Mech player's late game tech of choice. Point Defense Drone blocks Locust shots so you can gain ground toward the Swarm Hosts. Hunter Seeker Missile is a good multi-purpose weapon that can is effective against burrowed Swarm Hosts, oncoming Locusts, and tech switches to Brood Lord/Corruptor.

5. Replay Pack

Replay pack of me playing with this build: http://ge.tt/52nViQi
-SaharaDrac-
Profile Joined February 2013
27 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 09:03:18
June 04 2013 08:05 GMT
#2
Ah, excellent. Checking out the replays now. I would love to see Mech be viable in my play in TvZ again! I still think Swarm Host may flatten it too strongly, though. Looking forward to this.

Val_
Profile Joined May 2010
Ukraine156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 10:39:04
June 04 2013 10:05 GMT
#3
On June 04 2013 14:24 Guillermoman wrote:
If Zerg makes Swarm Hosts, the Mech player has two options: either Terran stops making Thors altogether and makes Siege Tanks or Terran is forced to make a sizeable amount of Ravens and use the mobility of Thor/Hellbat/Banshee to attack Zerg in multiple spots.



Third option - make 2/3/4 vacs full of hellbats and drop on the top of swarmhosts, 4/6/8 hellbats will rape them in seconds
is countered by muta + hosts composition but pure hosts suck hard
Try it, you will not be dissapointed, i promise

In general, this build is pretty old (WOL style), and it works well only sometimes (is not stable)

For example: it will be pretty hard to def an allin like 6 banes+roaches+lings
For example: It is bad vs default hydroroach into viper composition ( Banshees .. are not viable now )

2 Armories are also WOL-style ( ah .. you mentioned it, i saw it later)
They were good because of mass grades on mech army -> then mass grades on air (that helped banshees and helped vs broodlords)

In HOTS you can add 2nd armory later and be not so passive, this armor grade does not matter


There are some better modern builds based on empty 2nd gas -> scout ->if allin, send 3 workers to 2nd gas and play +1 fac with lab + armory -> 3rd cc -> +2 fac, if no allin 3cc -> + fac armory -> +2 fac


But in general it is ok.. it can be one of your builds.. keep working and improving that
Seems like you know the idea


P.S.: ill watch your replays because it is pretty interesting to compare other mech players with me (im 1700+ pts pure mech masters now) and write something concrete later
AKA [7x]Val / GML Terran EU
saaaa
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany419 Posts
June 04 2013 11:12 GMT
#4
i guess thor+banshee+hellbat is not that good in HotS like in WoL, because Roach/Hydra even without Viper will rape this.


You can play an all-in time with it when the zergs open with Muta Tech. There is a window with 4-6 Thors+Hellbats and SCV's on auto repair maybe you can throw some banshees in to add additional dps.

But in general Thor+Hellbat+Banshee will loose against any hydra play of the zerg, because they nullified your banshees in seconds. I try it at the beginning of HotS and it just sucks for me. Tank+Hellbat or Tank+WM with some Thors are much more viable in my opinion in the current game state.

Guillermoman
Profile Joined October 2012
24 Posts
June 04 2013 17:43 GMT
#5
On June 04 2013 19:05 [7x]laV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 14:24 Guillermoman wrote:
If Zerg makes Swarm Hosts, the Mech player has two options: either Terran stops making Thors altogether and makes Siege Tanks or Terran is forced to make a sizeable amount of Ravens and use the mobility of Thor/Hellbat/Banshee to attack Zerg in multiple spots.



Third option - make 2/3/4 vacs full of hellbats and drop on the top of swarmhosts, 4/6/8 hellbats will rape them in seconds
is countered by muta + hosts composition but pure hosts suck hard
Try it, you will not be dissapointed, i promise


I am really intrigued as to how a Hellbat drop onto Swarm Hosts would work out. As I went to get replays for this guide, I found some of my original Heart of the Swarm Beta games, which actually used a Reactored Starport instead of a Tech Lab Starport. Back then I used Medivacs only to drop the resource line and Swarm Host play was non-existant. I will definitely try including Medivacs into my composition.

On June 04 2013 19:05 [7x]laV wrote:In general, this build is pretty old (WOL style), and it works well only sometimes (is not stable)

For example: it will be pretty hard to def an allin like 6 banes+roaches+lings
For example: It is bad vs default hydroroach into viper composition ( Banshees .. are not viable now )

2 Armories are also WOL-style ( ah .. you mentioned it, i saw it later)
They were good because of mass grades on mech army -> then mass grades on air (that helped banshees and helped vs broodlords)

In HOTS you can add 2nd armory later and be not so passive, this armor grade does not matter


Having the +2 attack makes a world of a difference for Mech as it allows Hellbats to one shot any upgraded Zerglings and Drones and allows Thors to one shot Locusts. I definitely agree with you about the second Armory, as I don't think there are any special window where +2 armor protect against something longer than +1.
Gaizokubanou
Profile Joined April 2013
United States61 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 18:16:58
June 04 2013 18:13 GMT
#6
On June 05 2013 02:43 Guillermoman wrote:Having the +2 attack makes a world of a difference for Mech as it allows Hellbats to one shot any upgraded Zerglings and Drones and allows Thors to one shot Locusts. I definitely agree with you about the second Armory, as I don't think there are any special window where +2 armor protect against something longer than +1.


+2 hellbat (36 damage to light) does not one shot any upgraded zerglings and drones. +2 hellbats will only one shot a zergling up to +1 armor upgrade, and Hellbats will never one shot drones.

It is the +3 upgrade that changes a lot for the mech. One shot to any upgraded zergling comes with +3. Thors can 2 shot any upgraded mutas. Tanks will 2 shot hydras, etc.

As for hellbat drop on swarmhost... I haven't seen any swarmhost users that used them without any support. Usually swarmhosts would be accompanied by queens and roaches to prevent that sort of drop on top of them from wiping them out.

Blue flame hellion on other hand outrange locusts and does lot of damage so they complement tanks very well IMO.
padfoota
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Taiwan1571 Posts
June 04 2013 18:24 GMT
#7
You can also BBQ drones using PF, BCs and nukes. They all create the fiery death animation
Stop procrastinating
-SaharaDrac-
Profile Joined February 2013
27 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 19:25:09
June 04 2013 19:24 GMT
#8
Watched all the replays. You talk a lot about "roasting drones, BBQing drones" etc. but...the Zerg has a ton more SCV kills than you, while you sit on 0-8 Drone kills in many of the games. The Zerg then proceeds to throw it. I'm really not convinced by these replays.
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