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[G] PvT Style: Colossus/Phoenix Mid Game

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 20:22:28
April 24 2013 17:49 GMT
#1
Hi hi, I'm RoHDarkness from Chile, 1700 - 1800 points master league player in the NA server, currently playing for Renegades of Hell and former member of NrG (which, btw, is back baby!), among my accomplishments I have 2nd Place at WCS Chile, 9th - 12th at WCS South America Finals and 4th place WCG Panamerican Championship 2012. I used to try to post in the TL strategy forums a lot but I guess I got a little lazy. Anyways, when I heard MC used stargate openings to great effect at the last MLG I started fiddling around with them a little bit and what came out is a great, solid way of playing PvT, thanks MC!.

[image loading]

Why the build works and the Philosophy behind it:

This build is good because it relies on getting information, it constantly scouts around in order to make as few units as possible favoring tech and production for as long as possible, this way you can be really efficient about your resource management and as such your mid game will be much stronger.

The basic concept is that you use the oracle to pin them down until medivacs come out, after this point, the oracle simply becomes another observer with revelation, which you will have to use constantly in order to track down the terran's army (it helps a lot, try seriously not to lose it at least until vikings are out), this, along with 1 - 2 observers and the phoenixes should make your base incredibly difficult to harass.

This leads to an incredibly strong mid game where you will have a much easier time dealing with multi-prong attacks and drops given the mobility of your army!.

Opening: (any other stargate macro-oriented openings should do, this is just the one I do)

9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas (x2)
16 Pylon (Put 2 probes on each gas)
18 core (when you have 14 probes mining, rally nexus to one gas, then repeat for the other, this is to make the build a little bit more efficient)
19 zealot (cancel it at 99%, this zealot is only in case they block the natural with an e-bay or if they are rushing you)
20/21 (@100% cybernetics core) warpgate and mothership core
22 pylon
@next 50 gas Stalker
@100% stalker, 2nd stalker or sentry (stalker for widow mines/reapers harass, otherwise sentry)
27 Stargate, sentry (2nd)
29 nexus
31 oracle
34 pylon and 2 more gates (3)
@100% Oracle, constant phoenix production (until you have 5-6)
~6 - 7 mins Robotics
@100% Warpgate Sentry, Zealot (x2)
~8:20 (or @100% robotics) Robotics bay, observer (1 or 2), immortal, 4th gate.
~9 mins forge (obviously you want +1 armor first and then max out ground weapons)
~10 mins twilight council (for Charge and eventual templar archives switch).
~11 - 13 mins Templar archives (this will depend a lot on what the terran is doing, more on that later).

Basically you want 4 gates, robo, robotics bay, forge, stargate and twilight council all done by 11 mins.

Scouting:

Scouting will have two (three if they went gasless expand) stages, the first one will be when your probe arrives at their base, this will tell you about any sort of proxy shenanigans and what not which this guide won't go into details, the important thing here is to scout whether or not they open rax/gas expand or gasless expand, since you can be a lot greedier vs gasless expand while gas expand has the threat of widow mines and reapers, which forces you to make an stalker with the mothership core and to adopt a defensive position. Against gasless expand, you can send your mothership core to their base to cast time warp on their workers and just gather some intel on his infraestructure. Eventually when the oracle arrives you can use it in combination with the mothership core for some effective harass but it's only optional, you don't have to do damage with the oracle, its just there to pin them down and scout.

Engaging the Terran:

Early Game:

Reapers: just make sure you have your mothership core hovering around your nexus and you should be fine, you shouldn't lose any probes against the reaper and if you control properly you can even cast a time warp in order to kill it, the reaper is there just for scouting so just do your best to zone it out while not overcommiting to it.

Widow Mines: This one is tricky, sometimes they will build a factory right next to your base, then lift it and land it inside your main to make widow mines from inside your base, in this case just keep the stalker and the mothership core near the factory to make sure they can't move to your mineral line without dieing on the way, its very rare from them to come with units towards the natural but if they do you always have photon overcharge, once the oracle pops up you can use envision and the superior range of the stalkers to eliminate the widow mines.

Widow Mine or hellbat drop: On this scenario it will take some micro from you but you should be able to clean it up with zero losses as long as you know the drop is coming (even if you don't, if you have good reaction you can still pull it off), basically you have to lift the widow mines/hellbats with your phoenixes before they burrow and clean it up with your ground forces, remember your oracle arrives at their base a little before this happens so it should see the lack of units and as such you should keep your army at your main's ramp to be able to effectively defend both areas.

Marines, Marauders, and other shenanigans: With the inception of the mothership core I have never seen this kind of agression anymore on the first 6 mins in the game, however, a stim pack timing before 8 mins is very scary with this kind of style since you will have very few units, and as such, if your oracle spots their army moving around ~7:15 or so you should be using your warpgates constantly. If it comes down it, you can use phoenix lifts on the marauders while casting photon overcharge/time warp/force fields and 1a to clean up the marines.

Mid Game:

Dealing with drops:

you want to have your oracle near the terran's base all the time, specially to see if they try to take a third to harass the worker building it a little bit and force them to pay extra attention because of it, try to cast revelation constantly on the terran's army, if you have 75 energy, use it!, it helps a ton. the Phoenixes should be patrolling the air near your main and your army should be parked between your main and your natural, your obs should either be used for detection (if they are really favoring widow mines) or for spotting, in which case you should send it to wherever it is that a drop is more likely to come from that isn't already covered by phoenix/xel'naga towers/revelation/oracle.

Since you will have a lot of vision, you will also have to make a lot of decisions, when to switch to templars?, when to take a third?, usually 11 - 13 mins is a good time to do both, try to take your expansion not after 1 minute the terran started his, and start templar archives after you have 2 collosus. You can also neglect switching to storm and get up to 5 colossi while using a lot of phoenixes + stalker/sentry/archon support to deal with the vikings while masses of chargelots act as shield for the colossi (In late game, you will probably need both storm and colossi though).

Frontal engagements:

Your army composition should be 3 sentries, some stalkers, chargelots, 3 -5 colossi, archons, up to 14 - 16 phoenixes, all with 2/1 upgrades while the terran has 2/2 or in some cases 3/2, the things you should do, in order

1) Cast guardian shield
2) 1a
3) Cast time warps
4) Put down the force fields behind the slowed terran army
5) Storm them! (if you did research storm)
6) Focus fire vikings with stalkers/sentries/archons and the phoenixes
7) Once the vikings are down, you use the remaining phoenixes to lift the marauders
8) Warp in reinforcements
9) Chase down the terran, kill the fleeing medivacs with the phoenixes
10) Enjoy the rage :D

Tips:

- Do you even lift?, Phoenix lift!, remember to use it all the time!, lift marauders so they don't tank for the marines, lift widow mines dropping in your base, lift ghosts about to cast emps on your templars, lift siege tanks!, lift everything!!!!!

- Split your army!, if you have vision of his main army, then the only thing that could sneak by is a small amount of troops, as such, if they aren't in front of your base, there is no need to keep your army parked in the front of your natural, split it in half around your main and nat, or in 1/3s, phoenixes covering your main, mothership core covering your third and your main army covering your nat. Its better to be present with ten soldiers than to be missing with ten thousand.

- Make cannons, 1 - 2 per base, yeah phoenixes are cool but if they get to drop your base with 16 marines then your phoenixes won't be able to close the distance. Now 6 phoenixes, 2 cannons, and a warp in round?, that's what I'm talking about, it can deal with drops pretty effectively, don't neglect cannons!.

- templar switch!, you don't "need" storm, but at least mixing in some archons can definetly swing the tides of a battle where there are few to no ghosts, charge is a very important ability since when in combination with time warp and force fields it really increases the effectiveness of zealots. Also, dark templars are a great way to keep the terran from expanding beyond his three intial bases and the dark shrine is pretty cheap in hots, so why not?.

- Guardian shield!, it reduces greatly the damage output of marines (from 6 to 4, with no upgrades), its a very important spell early on and you must make sure you always have at least one activated when in majoy engagements!.

- With this build you will have very few units, so don't even try to poke with your intial units, if they take an incredibly fast third or go for double ebay you just have to take a third yourself or add a 2nd forge, you don't "need" to be ahead of them on economy and upgrades, since your advantage lies is on mobility (phoenixes, recall) and tech (colossus/twilight), just make sure you dont end up with 1/1 vs a 3/3 maxed terran army and you should be fine

Do not lose:

- The 3 sentries (DO NOT LOSE THEM)
- The first 5 phoenixes (I used to poke around with them and they just auto died to the marine ball by accident so I just keep them patrolling near my main)
- The first 3 colossi (They are the big laser guys that deal most of the damage, if you lose one for nothing, it will definetly hurt you a lot when the big engagement comes)
- The little forge that could (most of the time I only have one forge, but if they go fast third AND get double ebay then I add a 2nd one and chrono boost the hell out of both)
- Robotics bay and templar archives (you obviously don't want to lose the stuff that allows you to make the big scary stuff that vaporizes other stuff).
- Mothership Core, Yes, it's cheap, but having a 200/200 energy mothership core is a big difference than having one that just spawned, planetary nexus ftw!.

Replays:

1) http://drop.sc/327222 (I don't make phoenixes after my oracle finish, he drops widow mines in my base, gets a money shot and kills like 15 workers, then I play the game from behind, lose my sentries, then lose the game shortly afterwards).

2) http://drop.sc/327223 (I make two oracles instead of one, don't even do much damage, but get the info I need, shows how good phoenix lift is )

3) http://drop.sc/327223 and http://drop.sc/327221, both reps are from the same series (I play vs a terran who says screw it and all ins twice with his army + scv pull, defend it with ease, on bel'shir I even get storm for added fireworks ^_^, for some reason he decided getting trapped at my third was a good idea, turns out it wasn't~).


I think that sums it up
No TL;DR for you sorry
GO PWN THE LADDER!~

PD: I will ladder today and post replays of this, if any of you can link to a VOD where MC or another gosu pro-gamer does this kind of style please do so and I will add it to the OP.

PD2: I stream!, almost every day, specially on weekends!, www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/darkness2k11 or http://www.twitch.tv/RoHDarkness , I used to play with mobile internet (those modem things) with 500 ping and 200 kb upload speed but now I have fiber optic yeaaah :D. I don't have a mic right now but I answer questions on the chat so please come by!,







When Behind, Dark Shrine
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
April 24 2013 18:01 GMT
#2
What terran unit composition best defeats this?
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
BulletCL
Profile Joined April 2012
Chile138 Posts
April 24 2013 18:01 GMT
#3
Holy shit Darkness! Why so sexy?
What, you run out of marines?
Csong
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada396 Posts
April 24 2013 18:43 GMT
#4
diego so sexy!!
Turnus
Profile Joined June 2007
United States86 Posts
April 24 2013 19:54 GMT
#5
Fun sounding strategy. I've been thinking about incorporating phoenix due to their ability to destroy drops, but have not seen a good masters-level build for them. Please post some replays, seeing the strat in action means millions when compared to just a written BO.
cui dono lepidum novum libellum
Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
April 24 2013 19:58 GMT
#6
On April 25 2013 03:01 T.O.P. wrote:
What terran unit composition best defeats this?


Artosis said korean terrans are mixing up hellbats on their bio compositions in order to deal better with chargelot based play, this, combined with MMMVG, good EMPs and good upgrades should be enough to stand toe to toe with the composition of this guide. Specially the upgrades, since this build gets very late upgrades, early upgrades from the terran will be one of their assets fighting the protoss later on~.
When Behind, Dark Shrine
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
April 24 2013 20:48 GMT
#7
Thanks, i talked about/looked into very similar stuff, had nothing but easy wins with it at low master but didn't go nearly as in depth as this with timings etc or take it at late, to the storm transition, because it's typically suprisingly easy to kill a weaker player with this kind of style

It's more thought out, in depth and mature than what i threw together in a couple of games with similar general theme as expected
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24580 Posts
April 24 2013 21:32 GMT
#8
I've played around with similar builds some and I like it. It forces away the dropping a lot. But I always stop at my four or five initial phoenix, but you think there should be constant production of them then? Why not continue and get Phoenix range and all that jazz too then? Or is it too much of a gas sink?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
April 24 2013 22:12 GMT
#9
On April 25 2013 03:01 T.O.P. wrote:
What terran unit composition best defeats this?


Passive play and solid upgrades more than unit compositions. That, and 2 reactored starports massing vikings.

The big weaknesses of this style just like in WoL are EMP and upgrades. We'll see wether the phoenix buff is enough to offset this, but for now it looks unlikely.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
April 24 2013 22:29 GMT
#10
I want to just say that my experience in WOL was that phoenix/colossi was a really good, but gimmicky build. It's really powerful, especially if you can goad to Terran into engaging you in the midgame like they would versus a standard unit composition, however if they turtle and play passively games can get rough. Still, it's a style and composition that can be very strong and at the very least you can bust it out in a BO3.
Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
April 24 2013 22:36 GMT
#11
On April 25 2013 06:32 Heartland wrote:
I've played around with similar builds some and I like it. It forces away the dropping a lot. But I always stop at my four or five initial phoenix, but you think there should be constant production of them then? Why not continue and get Phoenix range and all that jazz too then? Or is it too much of a gas sink?


You don't "need" phoenix range, although it might be a nice luxury to have, getting a fleet beacon for it alone is probably not worth it, but getting a fleet beacon before mid game ends is a great way to set up for late game, if you get air upgrades from say 12 mins or so, you will be able to start +3 at 17 mins and add 2 more SGs (3), then transition into skytoss or at least add some tempests into your army to siege like a madman with +3 Air units :D. Eventually u could even switch fully to skytoss, which with recall can still be fairly mobile .
When Behind, Dark Shrine
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 22:58:06
April 24 2013 22:57 GMT
#12
I'm low/mid Masters. Started doing this in Wings actually. It's a good strategy. Lately I've been using the first Phoenixes to scout the enemy's base, and then once I have more I can harass some workers and dissuade him from dropping while I go Colossus.

Been mixing a few voids into my composition as well in HotS. They tear up vikings pretty fast if you target fire. Once your Phoenix/Void Rays kill all his vikings, Colos are free to do work. If you want to be super allin, you can use all your sentries to hallucinate like 8 fake colossus and draw fire as you push. That has won me a few games
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
jerrywen0210
Profile Joined April 2013
China1 Post
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 03:13:07
April 25 2013 03:10 GMT
#13
sounds need a very high micro skill,can not aford this.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
April 25 2013 03:53 GMT
#14
I really appreciate this guide.

I've been interested in the Phoenix/Colossus style for a long time, but whenever I've struggled in PvT, I've always found another path to success.

Unfortunately, I can say the same for right now, but I'll bookmark this thread and try it out once is working well for me doesn't work anymore.
Rickyvalle21
Profile Joined July 2012
United States320 Posts
April 25 2013 04:53 GMT
#15
I Seen Mvptails use the same unit compisition and it worked suprisingly effective vs bio and he demolished a EU terran gm and the terran was clueless as to how to beat and and even asked Tails on tips on how to beat it. Tails didnt repond maybe because to lack of understanding.
people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing?
BerthaG
Profile Joined December 2012
France74 Posts
April 25 2013 07:51 GMT
#16
Hi, one question why going HT instead of Dt if strom not required ? Do we have enought Gaz and low minerals (used for gates and zelotes?)
Never surrender
Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
April 25 2013 14:56 GMT
#17
On April 25 2013 16:51 BerthaG wrote:
Hi, one question why going HT instead of Dt if strom not required ? Do we have enought Gaz and low minerals (used for gates and zelotes?)


Archons are a great way to complement your army composition, it gives you the extra beef you need and making them from HTs means you have plenty of minerals for chargelots, cannons and warp prisms for harass!.

You can get DTs but it's not mandatory, specially since they should already have turrets around their bases because of fear of the oracle or phoenix harass. It is still a nice idea to do some harass and force them to pay attention to their army but it is not an obligatory part of the build!.
When Behind, Dark Shrine
ffadicted
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3545 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-28 20:08:44
April 28 2013 19:47 GMT
#18
Man you gotta re-write your opening build. The numbers are literally all off and don't add up at all to a good build haha
The style itself is nice though, I've played with it myself because drops have been raping me. I generally stop at 5 phoenixes though, I see no point in making any more.

Also even the builds from the replay are not tight at all, you get supplied block and cut probes in the first like 6 minutes... In one of the replays you actually can't even afford enough pylons and end up killing one of your probes? Like wuuuut lol I'd like to see a tighter build tbh before I try your stuff, I say if you're gonna post a build on strat forums make sure it actually works out in numbers
SooYoung-Noona!
AGIANTSMURF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1232 Posts
April 28 2013 19:57 GMT
#19
On April 25 2013 07:12 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 03:01 T.O.P. wrote:
What terran unit composition best defeats this?


Passive play and solid upgrades more than unit compositions. That, and 2 reactored starports massing vikings.

The big weaknesses of this style just like in WoL are EMP and upgrades. We'll see wether the phoenix buff is enough to offset this, but for now it looks unlikely.


I played this style heavily throughout the beta, sadly a terran with better upgrades and a decent viking count still shuts this down completely :-(
Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....
songers
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada47 Posts
April 29 2013 01:35 GMT
#20
Awesome! I remember casting you in the URTL!

http://www.twitch.tv/urgaming/c/2186388

I liked the way the pheonix bought time and help you stop drops. Thanks so much for the build! Maybe I'll win some games vs T now
Wingblade
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1806 Posts
June 08 2013 15:35 GMT
#21
I've been playing a similar style but with double forge instead of the single forge play. With you pointing out that you don't need Templar tech that quickly, would going for a second forge before the archives be an equally powerful or maybe even better option? Or would that leave you more vulnerable to an SCV-Viking pull timing?
PartinG fanboy to the max, Rain/Squirtle/Dear/Scarlett/Bbyong are cool too. I don't always watch Dota2 but when I do I have no clue what's going on. GOGO POWER RANGERS
samuu
Profile Joined June 2013
Germany13 Posts
June 08 2013 19:43 GMT
#22
I think the best composition here for is zealot, mass colossi and phoenix + 3-4 sentrys.
Vikings are often no problem if you have 5-10 phoenix, so colossi are very strong.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't...
Gimpb
Profile Joined August 2010
293 Posts
June 08 2013 21:28 GMT
#23
I've been doing something fairly similar but I've been having a bit of trouble dealing with people that delay upgrades, expos, medivacs, etc for just tons of bio and/or hellbats pre 12 mins.

It does really shut down a lot of drops and retreats which is wonderful but I'm struggling against these types of heavily committed early game attacks. As long as the game has several engagements, it's great because you kill so many medivacs but I'm struggling with the one strait-up fight and it's done situation.

That said, I have been leaning toward chargelot archon for the meat of my army instead of stalker/colos but I will try it this way to see how things work.

I do have a couple notes that might add value to the discussion:
- Hellbats are fantastic lift targets
- Phoenix patrols through their production lines are fantastic for easy pick offs and to force turrets, especially if you can learn their medivac production cadence. This is especially nice because just a few turrets really doesn't stop phoenix
- Get oracles home and use them in attack mode if someone does an SCV pull
- Proxy pylons are much safer with phoenix on the map and they're great for bolstering your already strong retreat-prevention potential
Darkness2k11
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile313 Posts
June 08 2013 22:20 GMT
#24
On June 09 2013 00:35 Wingblade wrote:
I've been playing a similar style but with double forge instead of the single forge play. With you pointing out that you don't need Templar tech that quickly, would going for a second forge before the archives be an equally powerful or maybe even better option? Or would that leave you more vulnerable to an SCV-Viking pull timing?


It does leave you more vulnerable to a timing push (specially if they pull scvs), which is why it's safer to get the templar archives than spend what few gas remains in a 2nd forge's worth of upgrades.

Gimpb does bring up a couple of very solid points, specially lifting hellbats and killing them with phoenixes, hellbats are very annoying to deal with as they deal a ton of damage to zealots, and you will have plenty of zealots, so, keeping the hellbat count low early on can do wonders for you later on in the game.

Sadly, lately I have been shifting away from this style using a blink stalker/sentry/immo with double forge into storm into collosus kind of play, it's something I saw HuK playing with in his stream and I think it's really strong, it can also deal with mech nicely which is quite a plus, I think the colossi/phoenix build and the style in general displayed in this guide still needs some serious tweaks, I will try to mess around with it these days and get some replays for discussion.
When Behind, Dark Shrine
pieroog
Profile Joined June 2010
Poland146 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 11:40:32
June 11 2013 11:18 GMT
#25
Thank you for the great article. I've seen this stuff on RoE with Axslav and it became my fav way of playing PvT ever since.

Congrats on your achievements too!
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