|
Hey all. I am Magnet, a high Masters Protoss on NA (850 points). Currently my PvP ratio on ladder is 71%, using almost exclusively this build. I am confident that this build order is going to be pretty standard in the next month or so, considering it's safety and versatility. It is an economic or defensive DT opener, which is useful for checks against builds that ignore the DT threat, and can transition into a safe, simple economic opener with a quick Nexus.
Right now the meta in PvP is largely gateway pressure with a Mothership Core, to abuse greedy Stargate openers. This build holds 4gate aggression, 3gate aggression with or without a Mothership Core, and does so pretty seamlessly. The idea is that while aggression would normally hit, the Dark Shrine isn't done so you'd need some way to buy time before you die. This build gets a MSC in time to Nexus Cannon right when they show up, and the Nexus Cannon lasts up until the Dark Shrine is finished building. It also has enough units (3 Stalkers and MSC) to deny a majority of 4gate advancements up your ramp, forcing them to warp in further away from where they would like.
Worst case scenario is somebody blind-countering the build with Blink + Obs, but Blink + Obs is extremely rare right now (at least on the NA ladder), so this build will remain strong for quite a while. The other bad scenario is if an opponent blind-counters the build with a forge expand opener, so your DTs won't do anything and your Nexus will be behind. I guess the last troublesome situation is going against the same build, but this usually turns into a weird game where decision-making wins or loses it. Still, it has reasonable protection from mirror builds if you can run the build tightly and be clever with hold position, time warp and good building placement.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
--Scout with 10th Worker for Cheese--
Double Chronoboost on Probes @ 100% Pylon
14 Gateway (rally 13th probe to gateway spot)
16 Assimilator 2x (rally 15th probe to one geyser)
17 Pylon (rally 16th probe to pylon spot)
18 Core (rally 17th probe to Core spot)
Fill both geysers with 3 probes each when Core is started
19 Chronoboost Probes
Stalker @ 100% Core
Warpgate @ 100% Core - Chronoboost
23/25 Mothership Core (might need to cancel a probe to get this started the instant you have 100 gas/minerals)
25 Pylon
Stalker @ 100% Stalker (#2) - Chronoboost
Twilight Council @ 100 gas
Stalker @ 100% Stalker (#3) - Chronoboost when possible
Dark Shrine @ 100% Twilight Council
2nd Gateway @ 100 Minerals
33 Proxy Pylon - Scout his base with this probe
You should supply cap yourself at 34 with 3 Stalkers, 1 MSC and 26 probes
I have found that there is a lot of risk and marginal reward to get Stalkers out on the map to search for pylons, stray workers and/or units. Often times it can put you out of position and cause a loss if you make a mistake. I just hold position on the 3 Stalkers at the top of my ramp and keep the MSC back about 1/2 the distance from the ramp to my Nexus. If you have the APM/comfort level to get out on the map with your Stalkers to potentially kill forward pylons or stray units, go for it, but I find that it doesn't offer a big enough benefit to take the risk.
Early-game Transitions
+ Show Spoiler +The first and most obvious transition is that if you scout cheese, you need to abandon the build order and handle the cheese in whatever way you can. Cheese is exclusively pertaining to proxy gates, cannon rush, etc. When you place the Proxy pylon for your DTs on 33/34 supply, you are going to check to see if his army is at his base. If your probe freely walks into his base, you need to follow the DEFENSIVE transition, because his army is out on the map and will probably attack you soon. If your probe is killed (because his army is at home), you need to follow the ECONOMIC transition. You need to follow these transitions as precisely as possible, because they are most definitely going to win you games or put you ahead if you control properly. Likewise, if you miss important timings in the transition, it could cost you the game. DEFENSIVE transition+ Show Spoiler +Use this transition if your probe is able to freely walk into his base.
Stop probes (you should have 25 probes mining in your main, which is ideal anyway)
2x Gateways when minerals allow
Use Nexus Cannon if they start to advance your ramp. Give up ramp control and force them to engage into the Nexus.
Stalker at 100% Warpgate, chronoboost gateway
Stalker at 100% Gateway #2, chronoboost gateway
Pylon in the main
1 forward DT at proxy pylon
1 defensive DT at home
Use any additional chronoboost on the gateways that produced the DTs. When you hold the attack, expand and try your best to contain him or catch him out on the map. Research Charge. Use this transition if your probe is killed without seeing the inside of his base, or if he has a Nexus building.
Natural Nexus when minerals allow (34 supply)
Robo at 200 minerals
2 forward DTs at 100% Dark Shrine
Observer from Robo when available
Spend chronoboost on extra probes, and do your best to keep him in his base with DT harassment
Available mid and late-game transitions
+ Show Spoiler +There is a bit of a scary point if you get a Nexus down on an economic opener and they simply do not expand. If this is the case, you need to be willing to give up your natural Nexus, not make too many probes, but still use the Nexus to buy some time while you fortify your main with as many units as possible. The unfortunate thing is that you are basically forced to get a Robo to not die to DT plays which you probably won't be able to scout, so you might have a fairly useless building against Stargate all-ins. If you can scout that it is a 1-base all-in, try to get up to 4 gateways as soon as possible, or get a Forge down and try to get cannons up to hold the all-in. Researching Charge will definitely help if you can stall them for long enough.
Secondarily, if they are on one base, you can usually deal some damage with a DT counterattack (just 1) while they are away from their base. In particular if it is a Stargate all-in, they are forced to keep units home and their all-in is much softer.
Assuming they expand, you need to get an observer in there and figure out what they are doing. The most common transition right now is 2x Stargate Void Ray, to which you should respond with Double Forge and Storm. Attack/trade when they take a 3rd base and take your own at the same time, and start adding in Phoenix production. This way, if they continue to make Void Rays, you have two avenues to shut down Void Rays after you should have traded reasonably well in the mid-game with the Storm/Zealot/Archon timing, ideally with really nice upgrades like 1/1 or 2/2.
Colossus is pretty easy to scout and beat - use your own double SG Void Ray and charge on the Colossus. They will have Zealots or Stalkers left over, and your own Zealot Archon force will mop it up pretty easily. At least one Forge is recommended.
Very rarely, the opponent will try their own Storm build with no provocation, and I think the best answer is to just not research Storm and take a really fast 3rd base. If he continues to just use Storm + Zealot Archon, start diversifying your 3-base tech to Void Ray (or Phoenix) + Colossus. Phoenix are a nice answer to absorb some templar energy and possibly lift the Templar before they are able to Storm.
Handling DTs
+ Show Spoiler +The overall idea behind the DTs is that he really can't afford to have his army in two places on the map, with detection in both places. Your DTs are almost always going to either outright win the game because of a lack of detection, kill probes, or deflect an attack.
If you are warping in two forward DTs, you need to check to see if they have detection with the first one while keeping the 2nd one behind, so you don't lose both. If they do not have detection when your first DT shows up, do your best to kill probes or disable tech based on the circumstance. For example, if you know the Robo is finished and it's only a matter of time before they get an observer out, try to target probes and then run away with the DT when the observer finishes. If their Robo is in production or if it is powered by only 1 pylon, target either the Robo or Pylon to disable detection and you get a free win. If you are forcefielded out of his base, do your best to hide DTs in hopes of stopping an expansion attempt and pushing your economic advantage.
Some replays
+ Show Spoiler +Bear in mind that these reflect the openers, but I was still learning intricacies about the game as I went along. If I die it's because I did something wrong, and corrected it in another game. http://drop.sc/317637 - (Win) This is the most common example of this build in action. The opponent does some kind of aggressive gateway opener, they do absolutely no damage and don't have detection up in time. http://drop.sc/317636 - (Win) Example of fighting another DT build, and the methods you can use to at least prevent taking damage in this scenario. http://drop.sc/317635 - (Win) Example of the build being blind countered by some weird Forge opener, but the midgame transition is strong. http://drop.sc/317634 - (Loss) The opener runs ideally, I just make poor choices throughout the game and take a 3rd base way too late. http://drop.sc/317633 - (Loss) Perfect example of bad building positioning and really poor DT management in my main base.
|
Bah, if a mod can add PvP in the title somewhere, that would be great. This works for PvT as well but this specific guide is for PvP.
|
Very interesting strategy, but quite a gamble, how can you say something like you did with the blink/obs build, you should never use a build with a hard counter like that imo. I think this build should be really nice for BoX, but other than that I don't like gambles.
Overall nice writeup, but I wouldn't recommend this build because of the coinflip feel it has.
|
It is a bit meta right now, but you are metagaming against something that I literally have not seen on HoTS ladder, ever. And I am just speculating that Blink + Obs is a hard counter. If I remember the timings right, the DTs should still get in the Blink player's base and see what is going on, enough to at least force an unusual situation.
|
Nice! My PvP is struggling right now and having a build and specific transitions in mind should help a bit.
On April 04 2013 09:22 moskonia wrote:
Very interesting strategy, but quite a gamble, how can you say something like you did with the blink/obs build, you should never use a build with a hard counter like that imo. I think this build should be really nice for BoX, but other than that I don't like gambles.
Overall nice writeup, but I wouldn't recommend this build because of the coinflip feel it has.
Yeah I woduldn't really worry about it, blink obs is extremely rare to the point where I've never seen it in a good number of games. It just kinda doesn't fit into the meta right now so you don't particularly need to worry about it.
|
On April 04 2013 09:22 moskonia wrote:
Very interesting strategy, but quite a gamble, how can you say something like you did with the blink/obs build, you should never use a build with a hard counter like that imo. I think this build should be really nice for BoX, but other than that I don't like gambles.
Overall nice writeup, but I wouldn't recommend this build because of the coinflip feel it has.
Almost every build in PvP can be countered so i don't really see your point. There are risks to this build of course, but there are risks to every PvP build and this one matches up pretty nicely with a lot of the common builds atm. DT openers are surprisingly pretty robust atm and i think you can safely rely on a DT build in a BoX as a solid opener.
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 04 2013 09:30 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
It is a bit meta right now, but you are metagaming against something that I literally have not seen on HoTS ladder, ever. And I am just speculating that Blink + Obs is a hard counter. If I remember the timings right, the DTs should still get in the Blink player's base and see what is going on, enough to at least force an unusual situation.
I agree. One thing I've learned from playing with DTs in HotS is that it's actually fairly safe to go DTs in any situation now because if your opponent tries to get aggressive AT ALL, you can just send a DT or 2 into his base while his attacking army is walking across the map and still generally cause enough damage to at least delay the push.
DT openings were great in WoL, even better in HotS. Perhaps the only thing I'm not a huge fan of is dealing with DT mirrors, as you can get into some really wonky base trade scenarios. Thoughts on that?
|
On April 04 2013 10:03 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 09:30 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
It is a bit meta right now, but you are metagaming against something that I literally have not seen on HoTS ladder, ever. And I am just speculating that Blink + Obs is a hard counter. If I remember the timings right, the DTs should still get in the Blink player's base and see what is going on, enough to at least force an unusual situation. I agree. One thing I've learned from playing with DTs in HotS is that it's actually fairly safe to go DTs in any situation now because if your opponent tries to get aggressive AT ALL, you can just send a DT or 2 into his base while his attacking army is walking across the map and still generally cause enough damage to at least delay the push. DT openings were great in WoL, even better in HotS. Perhaps the only thing I'm not a huge fan of is dealing with DT mirrors, as you can get into some really wonky base trade scenarios. Thoughts on that?
Almost every DT opener is going to keep units at the main to protect against aggression, so your scouting probe should be denied, prompting you to Nexus + Robo. You can buy enough time to get an obs out and at least clean the DTs up in your base, while you try to figure out what is going on in his. A lot of DT openers will skip the Robo or proxy the Robo if they figure out it is a mirror, so most of the time your DT in their base goes unchecked. If you get an observer out and you have a DT in their base without any detection, you've basically won, because your DTs have detection and his don't.
If their army isn't at home and you can walk in, you'll be able to scout everything that is there, and you can easily make your own Robo if you see a Dark Shrine. The only super weird circumstance would be if you walk in, only saw gateways and he proxied his Dark Shrine and had no units at home, then you'd be totally thrown off, but still it's a fairly even game at that point because he doesn't know what is going on either, unless you screwed up and let him see what was in your base. At that point, you're best off trying to proxy a Robo or a Forge and base trade the best you can.
I guess I am familiar enough with it to make the decisions that need to be made in order to win those kinds of games. I did warn that it can get weird, but if you are comfortable with the decisions that need to be made in order to win and you follow all of the steps I have built up over the however-many months of refining this build, you should be in better shape than a majority of your opponents.
It is at least a lot more manageable and definite than games like Phoenix vs Phoenix, or Blink vs Blink. DT vs DT games are shorter, and usually the person with the better build order wins.
|
i used to play this style back in wol a lot even when dt shrine was more expensive. its even better nowadays.
I think I was getting early charge, against blink + obs i had a lot of chargelots and archons. maybe top top players would have the blink micro to abuse this but I didnt find I used to have problems versus blink obs.
|
I think Huk's DT expo is a much smoother build than this one, given the cost reductions of the DT shrine. You don't telegraph what you're doing quite as much, and you can skip the MSC while still holding off all kinds of aggression. You can also scout later and open zealot first, which helps against cheese, and helps econ in general. All in all, modifying Huk's build seems in every way better than this one.
|
On April 04 2013 12:43 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i used to play this style back in wol a lot even when dt shrine was more expensive. its even better nowadays.
I think I was getting early charge, against blink + obs i had a lot of chargelots and archons. maybe top top players would have the blink micro to abuse this but I didnt find I used to have problems versus blink obs.
The biggest issue is that they will start Blink as soon as their TC is done. In most modern DT builds, you won't actually start Charge until maybe halfway through the Dark Shrine being done, so you will need some serious tactics to stall for time. If charge finishes though, there's not a lot the Blink player can do because of how efficient Zealots are against Stalkers in equal cost. They need to be well ahead in army size to win battles.
|
On April 04 2013 12:46 ThaReckoning wrote:
I think Huk's DT expo is a much smoother build than this one, given the cost reductions of the DT shrine. You don't telegraph what you're doing quite as much, and you can skip the MSC while still holding off all kinds of aggression. You can also scout later and open zealot first, which helps against cheese, and helps econ in general. All in all, modifying Huk's build seems in every way better than this one.
Do you have a link to Huk's style?
|
United States8476 Posts
Dt builds are great in HotS! Do you have any links to pro games involving DT expands? I think this would reinforce your guide a lot.
Also, I would recommend making a list of the common PvP builds in HotS, how your build fares against each one of them, and the proper reaction.
|
Very nice, I will give this a try.
What composition should I get if I play against Voidray/ Tempest ?
New protoss player here and have no clue dealing with that composition
Thanks
|
I think I just versed you (and lost) on ladder.  Envisage
|
Italy12246 Posts
Few notes:
1) The 9pylon scout is unecesary imo. You can 13 scout or even do an assim scout and still react to cheese in time. On 4 player maps you can even say screw it and only core scout for his spawning location (depending on the opener, i'm not sure how yours does vs all the different aggressive openings).
2) When it comes down to getting the forward pylons for DT's, it's really helpful to have two on the map rather than one. Have one close to his base, and another farther away as a "backup" pylon. This is one of the reasons why it's helpful to keep units on the map; you want to find a way to keep your probe alive and/or sneak it on his side of the map.
3) Blink is a stronger transtion vs stargate than charge is, see rsvp's replay pack.
4) What monk said.
edit:
On April 20 2013 17:03 skyafterrain wrote:
Very nice, I will give this a try.
What composition should I get if I play against Voidray/ Tempest ?
New protoss player here and have no clue dealing with that composition
Thanks
Against pure Void Ray, see the protoss help me thread op. In general it's a "don't let him get there scenario", ground p eventually gets stomped by a maxed skytoss army that isn't just void rays.
|
On April 20 2013 17:28 Teoita wrote:
Against pure Void Ray, see the protoss help me thread op. In general it's a "don't let him get there scenario", ground p eventually gets stomped by a maxed skytoss army that isn't just void rays.
Not exactly:
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/72025
OP, as others have mentioned, there are still several things that could be improved with your build.
|
Italy12246 Posts
I should have added, assuming one of the players does not screw up horribly like MC did.
|
I feel like you'r build gets detection up a bit too late. Watching replay i saw that other guy didn't attack pylon powering robo. It would be a clear win for him (he had proxy robo going up and 4 gates meaning more units). I'd try getting a robo before nexus if you can assume dt from your scout (fast 2 gas like you).
|
I think opening 3 stalkers is not always the best decision. I like to gateway scout and see if my opponent goes for a 3 stalker rush. this opens the possibility for him of attacking with quick 5 stalkers when he chronoboosts warpgate. he can get a robo behind it, deal massive damage against your 3 stalkers while defending the dts.
That's why I open zealot, sentry, stalker, stalker. you can kill a stalker for free with your first forcefield and then stall with the second one when he tries to walk up your ramp. that buys enough time for your first dt warp-in.
the tradeoff is that your nexus will be a little later if he uses the build to expand off of 3 stalkers, but I like it more, because it's so much safer.
edit: oh and the sentry is very useful when it's dt vs dt as well.
|
On April 20 2013 13:01 lordsurya08 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:46 ThaReckoning wrote:
I think Huk's DT expo is a much smoother build than this one, given the cost reductions of the DT shrine. You don't telegraph what you're doing quite as much, and you can skip the MSC while still holding off all kinds of aggression. You can also scout later and open zealot first, which helps against cheese, and helps econ in general. All in all, modifying Huk's build seems in every way better than this one. Do you have a link to Huk's style?
There was a daily on it ages ago, I've played DT expand so much in HotS since then and made so many tweaks that it's probably nothing like huk's build anymore. Lately I've been doing a 2gate DT robo into expand, it's served me pretty well.
|
On April 04 2013 09:36 Darthsanta13 wrote:Nice! My PvP is struggling right now and having a build and specific transitions in mind should help a bit. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 09:22 moskonia wrote:
Very interesting strategy, but quite a gamble, how can you say something like you did with the blink/obs build, you should never use a build with a hard counter like that imo. I think this build should be really nice for BoX, but other than that I don't like gambles.
Overall nice writeup, but I wouldn't recommend this build because of the coinflip feel it has. Yeah I woduldn't really worry about it, blink obs is extremely rare to the point where I've never seen it in a good number of games. It just kinda doesn't fit into the meta right now so you don't particularly need to worry about it.
I have yet to see it in hots. There's really no point in opening that way unless you want to blind counter dt builds and lose to everything else.
|
On April 20 2013 17:28 Teoita wrote:Few notes: 1) The 9pylon scout is unecesary imo. You can 13 scout or even do an assim scout and still react to cheese in time. On 4 player maps you can even say screw it and only core scout for his spawning location (depending on the opener, i'm not sure how yours does vs all the different aggressive openings). 2) When it comes down to getting the forward pylons for DT's, it's really helpful to have two on the map rather than one. Have one close to his base, and another farther away as a "backup" pylon. This is one of the reasons why it's helpful to keep units on the map; you want to find a way to keep your probe alive and/or sneak it on his side of the map. 3) Blink is a stronger transtion vs stargate than charge is, see rsvp's replay pack. 4) What monk said. edit: Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 17:03 skyafterrain wrote:
Very nice, I will give this a try.
What composition should I get if I play against Voidray/ Tempest ?
New protoss player here and have no clue dealing with that composition
Thanks Against pure Void Ray, see the protoss help me thread op. In general it's a "don't let him get there scenario", ground p eventually gets stomped by a maxed skytoss army that isn't just void rays.
Where is rsvp's replay pack located?
Edit: Nevermind...found it.
|
I've been doing this build quite a bit, especially on 2p maps.
The whole scouting thing is quite unneccesary imo, if you just open with a zealot in the build you can blindly defend any cheese anyway as long as you respond with quick MsC+stalker when seeing so.
Besides this i'd also advocate to get twilight before MsC (waiting for probe to leave though). The MsC doesn't need to be that fast, you just want nexus cannon available about the time warpgate aggression could hit. Obviously getting the dt's asap is a good thing. Going out on the map too much is indeed a bit risky imo, I actually like to sit behind my ramp a little bit so sometimes they will go up with their stalkers, by timewarping the ramp then you can actually nab a kill often.
As for early units, i just go zealot-stalker-stalker. Cutting the 3rd stalker allows nexus -> robo which is significantly faster. If you make the third stalker it comes up for me that I need to go robo -> nexus to be safe from dt's (or get a sentry) which I both find detrimental to the build. I prefer to not make sentries at all in PvP as I find them very underwhelming, even despite the free hallucination.
Defending against DT is really a crucial skill in PvP now, they are just such a good opener because you can't really get behind with them. Even against robo DT opener is even usually, especially if you manage to get a few probe kills at the cost of your dt.
For example if your build does include a sentry you can blindly defend DTs quite well. Carefully put two units (zealots/stalkers) at the ramp on hold position blocking entry with a sentry behind it. With good placement you can FF the DT out when they attack your blocking units saving both your units and keeping away the DT. Since an early sentry can have near 100 energy easily by this time you can easily block out DTs for quite some time without detection if you need to, enough time to get up detection if you have stargate/robo/forge. Of course you can't protect a nexus this way but it's a useful trick to train for stargate builds I think where being hit by DTs when you have no oracle or it is out of position is not uncommon.
|
I used your Carrier Mothership all-in in WoL against Zerg to great success, and am looking forward to trying out this opening since I always used to be a fan of DT openings in PvP back in WoL too
|
United States8476 Posts
You should check out Rain vs sOs from proleague for an example VOD.
|
How do you hold off 3 gate stargate? His oracles detected my dts and his overwhelming amount of stalkers killed off my pylons. Did I pull my probes too late?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3259537
|
I myself prefer 3 stalker openings over zealot 1st, but DT's are hard to manage because they only work against blink stalkers. Just my opinion though I'll give this build a try.
|
|
|
Italy12246 Posts
You don't have to probe scout that early at all no matter what build you do. None is going to have tech or generally just show his hand so fast that you will see it with a 10 scout, but not with a 13 or later scout (assuming you probe scout at all). Also, if he goes 15/15 you aren't going to get the gas steal off anyway, so it's a very unreliable plan.
|
|
|
On April 20 2013 17:28 Teoita wrote:
Few notes:
1) The 9pylon scout is unecesary imo. You can 13 scout or even do an assim scout and still react to cheese in time. On 4 player maps you can even say screw it and only core scout for his spawning location (depending on the opener, i'm not sure how yours does vs all the different aggressive openings).
Thanks
I'd be really concerned against Proxy 2 Gate with a 13 scout and 14 Gate opener on a 2 player map. Do you have any replays of someone holding a Proxy 2 Gate with a 13 scout and a 14 Gate? Maybe I just need to get better at stopping the 2 Gate.
|
Italy12246 Posts
I think you mean 13 gate 14 scout, in which case the timings are close enough that you can still cancel your gasses and get defense up in time. I don't exactly 14 scout here, but i went around my main first and went double gas before scouting his proxy, so the timings should be close enough: http://drop.sc/335935
|
I've been looking for alternatives to gateway pressure. Thanks for the excellent guide, Sidewinder.
|
On May 20 2013 22:40 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 22:28 Teoita wrote:
You don't have to probe scout that early at all no matter what build you do. None is going to have tech or generally just show his hand so fast that you will see it with a 10 scout, but not with a 13 or later scout (assuming you probe scout at all). Also, if he goes 15/15 you aren't going to get the gas steal off anyway, so it's a very unreliable plan. Like I said, if I wasn't planning to gas steal then I wouldn't bother sending a scout that early. I'd send a scout around my base at 13 to scout for proxies instead. You're right that you mightn't get the gas steal off if they go double assimilator, but I think it's worth trying because it's a significant advantage to get a gas steal off with this opening. EDIT: I mean, it's not like my whole game-plan hinges on gas stealing... I just think that it's worth trying.
gas stealing is pretty crap anyway as the obvious response is just 1 gate FE into robo which is good against any build that delays itself by early scouting and gas stealing. The gas steal itself pretty much says you aren't doing anything aggressive too early on.
|
great guid  i had alot of trouble playing pvp in hots but that guid really helped. Though i am not playing your exact build i changed it a bit and play it a bit different after i had a talk about this build with Teoita. But in general i recomend this build to everyone and if you have the ability change it a bit so that it suits your style/idea
Note: So if really anyone is thinking about playing it differently, you can be waaaayyy greedier...
|
Curious as to the strength of this build these days. Not much has been changed since this build was written other than Oracle speed, which I'm kinda worried about since that would make using them as detection easier for the opponent if he does open that way.
|
Why do you prefer this build instead of a Dear style DT expand (has 1 gate, 5:20 Robo and 6:00 expo)?
|
The build is still pretty damn safe!
Oracles might give you problem defensively, but Overcharge and/or 2 Stalkers deal with them. You won't deal damage offensively, but you still get yourself a fast expansion up NP!
|
United States4883 Posts
This is still a really good build, even in the current meta. It's perhaps not as extreme as some of the other DT expands used by pros out there (6:30 DTs off of no units, 1-gate DT expands, etc., etc.), but it's still very solid and still my go-to build for PvP on ladder.
|
This build is actually still really good except I don't like the 9 scout 14 gate. I much prefer 13 gate 13 scout. As for 2 gates instead of 1. I believe you use 2 for 1 to defend and 1 dt for counterattack vs aggression. If you make 1gateway you have to make the decision to do 1 or the other.
|
I don't believe in making units when going DT expand. It's just so unnecessary. If you zealot scout, you can determine whether you need a second gate before expo'ing or not. And, you can also determine whether you need a stalker (which you only need if you realize they're going to scout you with their mothership core).
The real counter to DT expand is 2 gate expo/robo. It's dicey as you have to expo as stalkers will be attacking it shortly and then try to use a dt/core to save it. Relative expo timing is pretty much everything in P vs P.
|
On March 25 2014 06:43 Salient wrote:
Why do you prefer this build instead of a Dear style DT expand (has 1 gate, 5:20 Robo and 6:00 expo)?
For the same reason that SC2John mentioned--it's not as extreme as that type of DT expand. Having two gates means that you can have a DT in his mineral line and another one in your base to help defend in case your opponent goes for early pressure without detection.
|
I have a verys stupid question: When do I have to take may natural? I cant find it in the BO
|
It's written in the OP, under "Early game transition".
|
Italy12246 Posts
^ Yep. Please have the patience to read the whole thing next time.
|
oops :D Sorry and thank you!
|
i don't really like this build, i am using a more standard dt robo and only 1 stalker, the way welmu did a few seasons ago, you are only in a bad position vs 1 gate expand, wich is the same as this only that you die to dts, blink obs ...
I think using a robo and cutting the 2 stalkers is better from my experience !!
|
I find this build isn't very good against this Parting's Blink PvP Build. Reason being I use the Parting build and can safely defend against this once I see either the DT shrine or the Twilight not researching anything. Once its scouted, its terribly difficult to get anything done and you're so behind on army that you just kinda die because you're trying to expand while your opponent is kinda hitting a one base timing attack.
|
On July 28 2014 01:38 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i don't really like this build, i am using a more standard dt robo and only 1 stalker, the way welmu did a few seasons ago, you are only in a bad position vs 1 gate expand, wich is the same as this only that you die to dts, blink obs ...
I think using a robo and cutting the 2 stalkers is better from my experience !!
This sounds vague. I myself do a DT rush which gets a twilight + MSC right away, but there's no way you can cut the second gate (dark shrine before gate though) if you want to attack and defend. You can stay on 1 or 2 stalkers (2 is safer against an oracle, obviously) because your dark shrine finishes at 6:20, so you can actually have dts for defense slightly before photon overcharge expires, that is to say, if you're being 10-gated and need it as early as possible.
On July 28 2014 02:18 KotaOnCue wrote:I find this build isn't very good against this Parting's Blink PvP Build. Reason being I use the Parting build and can safely defend against this once I see either the DT shrine or the Twilight not researching anything. Once its scouted, its terribly difficult to get anything done and you're so behind on army that you just kinda die because you're trying to expand while your opponent is kinda hitting a one base timing attack.
This blink build can have a major issue if the dt player goes for a 3:45 twilight though. While the msc can scout the main, the dt player can proxy his dark shrine with a second or third pylon (you can still reactively get a robo, but the problem is the timing as I'll describe in just a second). If you leave nothing at home and the dt player gets a pylon up, there can be dts in your mineral line at 6:30. If that happens and you have an exposed robo that is about to finish or finishes at 6:30 and dts target it, your observer won't come out in time and you will lose your robo. And that's already a pretty damn fast robo for a blink build. Defensive dts (as well as offensive ones, obviously) and photon overcharge can buy you time to get immortals out too, since you can get a 5:30 robo yourself. I know the build presented here is a slower variation, but you can still get caught offguard by dts even if you msc scout and get a robo upon scouting no tech. Although you could also get confused because this build can also get a 5:30 robo, so... yeah, pretty dicey.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
