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[G] PvP: Modern DT Expand/Defense - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ThaReckoning
Profile Joined January 2011
United States197 Posts
April 20 2013 21:35 GMT
#21
On April 20 2013 13:01 lordsurya08 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 12:46 ThaReckoning wrote:
I think Huk's DT expo is a much smoother build than this one, given the cost reductions of the DT shrine. You don't telegraph what you're doing quite as much, and you can skip the MSC while still holding off all kinds of aggression. You can also scout later and open zealot first, which helps against cheese, and helps econ in general. All in all, modifying Huk's build seems in every way better than this one.


Do you have a link to Huk's style?


There was a daily on it ages ago, I've played DT expand so much in HotS since then and made so many tweaks that it's probably nothing like huk's build anymore. Lately I've been doing a 2gate DT robo into expand, it's served me pretty well.
If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose.
robopork
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States511 Posts
April 21 2013 06:15 GMT
#22
On April 04 2013 09:36 Darthsanta13 wrote:
Nice! My PvP is struggling right now and having a build and specific transitions in mind should help a bit.

Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 09:22 moskonia wrote:
Very interesting strategy, but quite a gamble, how can you say something like you did with the blink/obs build, you should never use a build with a hard counter like that imo. I think this build should be really nice for BoX, but other than that I don't like gambles.

Overall nice writeup, but I wouldn't recommend this build because of the coinflip feel it has.

Yeah I woduldn't really worry about it, blink obs is extremely rare to the point where I've never seen it in a good number of games. It just kinda doesn't fit into the meta right now so you don't particularly need to worry about it.


I have yet to see it in hots. There's really no point in opening that way unless you want to blind counter dt builds and lose to everything else.
“This left me alone to solve the coffee problem - a sort of catch-22, as in order to think straight I need caffeine, and in order to make that happen I need to think straight.”
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-21 06:41:39
April 21 2013 06:41 GMT
#23
On April 20 2013 17:28 Teoita wrote:
Few notes:
1) The 9pylon scout is unecesary imo. You can 13 scout or even do an assim scout and still react to cheese in time. On 4 player maps you can even say screw it and only core scout for his spawning location (depending on the opener, i'm not sure how yours does vs all the different aggressive openings).
2) When it comes down to getting the forward pylons for DT's, it's really helpful to have two on the map rather than one. Have one close to his base, and another farther away as a "backup" pylon. This is one of the reasons why it's helpful to keep units on the map; you want to find a way to keep your probe alive and/or sneak it on his side of the map.
3) Blink is a stronger transtion vs stargate than charge is, see rsvp's replay pack.
4) What monk said.

edit:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 17:03 skyafterrain wrote:
Very nice, I will give this a try.
What composition should I get if I play against Voidray/ Tempest ?
New protoss player here and have no clue dealing with that composition

Thanks


Against pure Void Ray, see the protoss help me thread op. In general it's a "don't let him get there scenario", ground p eventually gets stomped by a maxed skytoss army that isn't just void rays.


Where is rsvp's replay pack located?

Edit: Nevermind...found it.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 21 2013 10:22 GMT
#24
I've been doing this build quite a bit, especially on 2p maps.

The whole scouting thing is quite unneccesary imo, if you just open with a zealot in the build you can blindly defend any cheese anyway as long as you respond with quick MsC+stalker when seeing so.

Besides this i'd also advocate to get twilight before MsC (waiting for probe to leave though). The MsC doesn't need to be that fast, you just want nexus cannon available about the time warpgate aggression could hit. Obviously getting the dt's asap is a good thing. Going out on the map too much is indeed a bit risky imo, I actually like to sit behind my ramp a little bit so sometimes they will go up with their stalkers, by timewarping the ramp then you can actually nab a kill often.

As for early units, i just go zealot-stalker-stalker. Cutting the 3rd stalker allows nexus -> robo which is significantly faster. If you make the third stalker it comes up for me that I need to go robo -> nexus to be safe from dt's (or get a sentry) which I both find detrimental to the build. I prefer to not make sentries at all in PvP as I find them very underwhelming, even despite the free hallucination.

Defending against DT is really a crucial skill in PvP now, they are just such a good opener because you can't really get behind with them. Even against robo DT opener is even usually, especially if you manage to get a few probe kills at the cost of your dt.
For example if your build does include a sentry you can blindly defend DTs quite well. Carefully put two units (zealots/stalkers) at the ramp on hold position blocking entry with a sentry behind it. With good placement you can FF the DT out when they attack your blocking units saving both your units and keeping away the DT. Since an early sentry can have near 100 energy easily by this time you can easily block out DTs for quite some time without detection if you need to, enough time to get up detection if you have stargate/robo/forge. Of course you can't protect a nexus this way but it's a useful trick to train for stargate builds I think where being hit by DTs when you have no oracle or it is out of position is not uncommon.
HoboJoe20
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada63 Posts
April 22 2013 01:54 GMT
#25
I used your Carrier Mothership all-in in WoL against Zerg to great success, and am looking forward to trying out this opening since I always used to be a fan of DT openings in PvP back in WoL too
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
May 03 2013 12:40 GMT
#26
You should check out Rain vs sOs from proleague for an example VOD.
Moderator
damnMangos
Profile Joined September 2012
United States8 Posts
May 19 2013 02:54 GMT
#27
How do you hold off 3 gate stargate? His oracles detected my dts and his overwhelming amount of stalkers killed off my pylons. Did I pull my probes too late?

http://ggtracker.com/matches/3259537
Dapapoose
Profile Joined April 2013
United States12 Posts
May 19 2013 10:24 GMT
#28
I myself prefer 3 stalker openings over zealot 1st, but DT's are hard to manage because they only work against blink stalkers. Just my opinion though I'll give this build a try.
http://www.twitch.tv/dapapoose
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 10:10:29
May 20 2013 10:09 GMT
#29
--- Nuked ---
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 13:33:55
May 20 2013 13:28 GMT
#30
You don't have to probe scout that early at all no matter what build you do. None is going to have tech or generally just show his hand so fast that you will see it with a 10 scout, but not with a 13 or later scout (assuming you probe scout at all). Also, if he goes 15/15 you aren't going to get the gas steal off anyway, so it's a very unreliable plan.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 13:44:50
May 20 2013 13:40 GMT
#31
--- Nuked ---
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 15:54:06
May 20 2013 15:49 GMT
#32
On April 20 2013 17:28 Teoita wrote:
Few notes:
1) The 9pylon scout is unecesary imo. You can 13 scout or even do an assim scout and still react to cheese in time. On 4 player maps you can even say screw it and only core scout for his spawning location (depending on the opener, i'm not sure how yours does vs all the different aggressive openings).
Thanks


I'd be really concerned against Proxy 2 Gate with a 13 scout and 14 Gate opener on a 2 player map. Do you have any replays of someone holding a Proxy 2 Gate with a 13 scout and a 14 Gate? Maybe I just need to get better at stopping the 2 Gate.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-20 16:20:30
May 20 2013 16:02 GMT
#33
I think you mean 13 gate 14 scout, in which case the timings are close enough that you can still cancel your gasses and get defense up in time. I don't exactly 14 scout here, but i went around my main first and went double gas before scouting his proxy, so the timings should be close enough: http://drop.sc/335935
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Korson
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States47 Posts
May 20 2013 16:15 GMT
#34
I've been looking for alternatives to gateway pressure. Thanks for the excellent guide, Sidewinder.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 20 2013 17:57 GMT
#35
On May 20 2013 22:40 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2013 22:28 Teoita wrote:
You don't have to probe scout that early at all no matter what build you do. None is going to have tech or generally just show his hand so fast that you will see it with a 10 scout, but not with a 13 or later scout (assuming you probe scout at all). Also, if he goes 15/15 you aren't going to get the gas steal off anyway, so it's a very unreliable plan.

Like I said, if I wasn't planning to gas steal then I wouldn't bother sending a scout that early. I'd send a scout around my base at 13 to scout for proxies instead. You're right that you mightn't get the gas steal off if they go double assimilator, but I think it's worth trying because it's a significant advantage to get a gas steal off with this opening.

EDIT:

I mean, it's not like my whole game-plan hinges on gas stealing... I just think that it's worth trying.


gas stealing is pretty crap anyway as the obvious response is just 1 gate FE into robo which is good against any build that delays itself by early scouting and gas stealing. The gas steal itself pretty much says you aren't doing anything aggressive too early on.
chindy
Profile Joined September 2011
82 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-21 01:38:22
May 21 2013 01:37 GMT
#36
great guid i had alot of trouble playing pvp in hots but that guid really helped. Though i am not playing your exact build i changed it a bit and play it a bit different after i had a talk about this build with Teoita. But in general i recomend this build to everyone and if you have the ability change it a bit so that it suits your style/idea

Note: So if really anyone is thinking about playing it differently, you can be waaaayyy greedier...
EthanKairos
Profile Joined June 2012
Philippines65 Posts
March 24 2014 21:02 GMT
#37
Curious as to the strength of this build these days. Not much has been changed since this build was written other than Oracle speed, which I'm kinda worried about since that would make using them as detection easier for the opponent if he does open that way.
Now, I can change almost anything.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
March 24 2014 21:43 GMT
#38
Why do you prefer this build instead of a Dear style DT expand (has 1 gate, 5:20 Robo and 6:00 expo)?
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
March 24 2014 22:36 GMT
#39
The build is still pretty damn safe!
Oracles might give you problem defensively, but Overcharge and/or 2 Stalkers deal with them. You won't deal damage offensively, but you still get yourself a fast expansion up NP!
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
March 25 2014 00:17 GMT
#40
This is still a really good build, even in the current meta. It's perhaps not as extreme as some of the other DT expands used by pros out there (6:30 DTs off of no units, 1-gate DT expands, etc., etc.), but it's still very solid and still my go-to build for PvP on ladder.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
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