EPT[G] PvX Protoss All-ins rediscovered! - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Kinon
Romania207 Posts
| ||
|
IMMABEASTBRUH
United States271 Posts
| ||
|
moQbara
Romania76 Posts
On April 04 2013 02:05 iMmOrTaLiUz wrote: The 2 gas is to throw the opponent off making him think you're going for some quick tech, because if they see one gas only, then they might get suspicious, but if most players see 2 early gasses then they quickly jump to the conclusion that it's going to be some kind of a tech opoening (e.g. stargate, dts, etc..), and although it wastes more minerals to take that second assimilator, I think it pays off in itself by fooling the opponent, it's all about the mind games after all. There are only 2 possible scenarios: 1. You "fool" your opponent into thinking you're going "tech heavy". His response would be early pressure. 2. You don't "fool" your opponent (i.e.: he reads your "early" pressure). His response would be to defend then proceed into a macro game with a huge advantage OR early pressure of his own. There is no scenario in which your "mindgames" do you any good. On April 04 2013 02:05 iMmOrTaLiUz wrote: The attack is a bit late, but keep in mind that I rattled him a bit early on with the quick stalkers, so I was able to attack him that late. Under normal circumstances a 4gate at that timing would be held off easily by platinum players even in WoL. You're trying it in HotS, so you have MsC, cheaper dts and better voidrays, to think about. The only games you'll win with this build are those which would be won with any build, because the opponent is experimenting stuff or otherwise not having a great day. But the buildorder itself is strange, at best. | ||
|
Sox03
Germany55 Posts
This is only partly true you can basically hold any build with 1 gate stargate pretty decently. If you go zealot sentry zeaolt sentry you can hold a standard 4 gate even after you planted the stargate, many people still try to 4 gate because many people are not really into stargate builds yet, but even in WoL it was possible so it's not sth i would build on. When the 4 gate is delayed or you have other fast stalker pressure it can still be held even with a msc while i cut mine for most of the earlygame. To the question about the PvT voidray all in: It was possible in WoL in GM on the korean server, im pretty sure it would work in hots aswell ( personally i never tried it ) but i think oracle instead may be better. I think there should be some VODs from MLG out there if i remember correctly. | ||
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
iMmOrTaLiUz
United States37 Posts
On April 05 2013 20:21 moQbara wrote: There are only 2 possible scenarios: 1. You "fool" your opponent into thinking you're going "tech heavy". His response would be early pressure. 2. You don't "fool" your opponent (i.e.: he reads your "early" pressure). His response would be to defend then proceed into a macro game with a huge advantage OR early pressure of his own. There is no scenario in which your "mindgames" do you any good. Under normal circumstances a 4gate at that timing would be held off easily by platinum players even in WoL. You're trying it in HotS, so you have MsC, cheaper dts and better voidrays, to think about. The only games you'll win with this build are those which would be won with any build, because the opponent is experimenting stuff or otherwise not having a great day. But the buildorder itself is strange, at best. You forgot about the scenario of my opponent seeing the early double gas, and deciding that it's safe to tech hard himself, which is what usually happens in most of my games, when my opponent (or even I for that matter) see an early double gas we presume it is going to be a quick tech route, which allows us to relieve some pressure that it's most likely not going to be a 4gate, and allows either of us to go heavy tech ourselfs. The scenarios which you listed are plausible as well, but they are the exception and not the rule. 1. If he decides to pressure me then I'll be the one with the advantage, since im chronoing out stalkers straight out of a gateway, so his pressure will be weaker than mine, that is actually an advantage on my part. 2. In 80%+ of my games my opponents are fooled in this scenario, no one really expects a 4gate out of a quick double assimilator timing, so they all presume I'm going to go tech heavy, and in response go tech heavy themselfs, which costs them the game. And about the second part of your post, that's not true at all, unless my opponent gets some early, and do I mean early sentries out to deal with the fast stalkers, there isn't really a way to stop my build, cause of my massive amounts of units it throws at them. Read the post above mine ^ Sated's post, he explains this part a bit better than I do. On April 05 2013 20:58 Sated wrote: I've refined the build in such a way that I can hit with 7 Stalkers at @6:10 instead of @7:00 as in the video. An 8th Stalker will be ready @6:20 (the 4th Gateway finishes later than the 3rd, so that Stalker is delayed). I do not have Probes being delayed (although I would point out that Probe pairing is super important for this build, and that anything less than optimal Probe pairing will cost you dearly) and I don't have any supply blocks. However, I do use a different build to that out-lined in the OP, which helps out a lot with my timings. I've won more games than I have lost with my version of this build, but I acknowledge that my build only works because there are a lot of people using tech-builds that wouldn't be safe against even a traditional 4 Gate all-in. The problem is that people feel so comfortable with a MSC that they don't realise how devastating 4 Gate pressure can be against a player who hasn't gotten enough Sentries. Like someone pointed out above, if they go for the safe Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry opening then you won't be able to beat them with a 4 Gate, but a lot of people simply aren't doing that because they're trying to do stupid things like Zealot+Stalker+MSC pressure whilst teching-up. At the moment, PvP is in a state where most players don't seem to fear all-ins, and that means people are using a lot of unstable builds that are hard to predict/scout due to their unstable nature. Until we get to a state where people are again scared of 4 Gate openings and so use builds that are actually safe, I'm going to keep on 4 Gating. I don't want to play a style of PvP were the person who coin-flips hardest wins. EDIT: You say that fooling your opponent into pressuring early is a bad thing, but due to the way that this build rushes out Stalkers, you should always have a Stalker advantage (on your side of the map) until Warpgate is complete. How exactly would they pressure you? Hey, thanks for playing around with the build, and exploring it even further. You manage to attack with 7 stalkers almost a full minute before I do? That's impressive, not sure how it would be done, so would you be kind enough as to upload some replays of your PvP's in which you do this? I'd really like to see your build and maybe copy some parts of it to improve mine.  | ||
|
Ruin
United States271 Posts
| ||
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
| ||
