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Video Version
Table of Content
1.0.......Introduction
2.0.......Build Order
3.0.......Execution
3.1.......Thought process in general
3.2.......How to engage
3.3.......How to react to cheeses
4.0.......Replays
5.0.......Feedback
Introduction top
Because of recent incidents: I am not the "shokz-guide" guy. My name is iSHOKZ (like iphone)
Hello Teamliquid community, my name is iSHOKZ and I am currently a master player on the EU Server with the race random. One of my best match-ups so far is the TvZ, with this mech build-order. Right now i am 11 wins and 0 loses with it (+ cup wins)
I do also want to mention: No I am not the "shokz" you know from the shokz guides, my name is iSHOKZ, i'm a completely other person and i did not steal that name.
My stats with this build can be seen here. I do also use it quite successfully in TvT, but it has its weaknesses there. For those who call the amount of games not representative, i did also use it in weekly cups with good success.
Note: This is no Build proofed for grandmasters, its just a solid macro-build for all those masters and below players who want to play mech.
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order top
In general we don't have to have a complicated build order here, we can just follow this sequence by building what we need whenever we can afford it.
reaper opening -> expand -> reactor factory , techlab on barracks afterwards -> expand -> 2nd gas -> 2 more factorys, and armory and 3rd gas.
Buildorder in supply:
10 - Supplydepot (send out the worker before the 9th finishes, everything here needs to be tight)
11 - Barracks
11 - Gas
14 - Reaper
15 - OC
15 - Supplydepot
16 - 2nd and last Reaper
19 - Build CC in your main
20 - Factory + Reactor on the Baracks
23 - Build CC in your main (you cc's will give you the supply when you need it, next depot starts when 3rd cc finishes)
24 - Swap factory and barracks, techlab on barracks, build 2 widowmines, morph oc, build 2nd gas, start 2nd factory
From now on you just add the 3rd gas on the natural as soon as you feel safe, depending on the scouting done by your reapers. When you can afford it go for the 3rd factory and an armory. You should be able to produce +1 weapon when the armory finishes and 2 thors in case you need them against incoming mutas.
Execution top
A good build is useless with bad execution. So be sure to produce workers nonstop, don't get supply-blocked, add more factorys in the course of the game and also add more OC's in the lategame.
Since we play mech and don't need that many minerals in the lategame, we constantly add OCs and scan the zerg army, the reinforcements he builds and his tech, so we don't get surprised by a muta switch or something.
In the following we are going to take a look at the thought process behind the build, engagements, unit compositions and some adaptiations we need to make in certain situations
Random Notes: Never push with less then 3 thors in case of a muta switch. (+widows). I like to skip the hellion transformation upgrade and produce battle hellions right away. Use burrowed widow-mines to scout key map-paths. This build also works in TvT if you react accordingly.
Thought process in general top With HotS terran received a lot of buffs. Tanks don't require siege mode and the widow mine and battle-hellions are two new factory units. These buffes are great defensively, so you should be able to use them as a terran and go very eco heavy without being punished. The new reaper gives us the ability to scout the opening of a zerg. Since we go 3OC we have no other mapcontrol than the early reapers which are crucial to see what the oponent is doing.
Now let us have a look at the other side, at the zerg points of view. Terran has new mech potential. The zerg has got vipers now, swarmhosts and a hydra buff. The hydras should not bother a mech player to much and the other two units will be in the game as soon as a 3 OC build kicks in. We will take a look at how to play vs. them in the next section.
The most important part with a mech army is the engagement. We are not very mobile and can't micro our units to the korean potential, but with a mech army you are able to get huge advantages through positioning. Once you know how to control and position your army correctly you feel unbeatable.
In general: When you push out (at around 150-160 supply) you want to use the architecture of the map as best as you can. Always move and siege next to "dead-space", so the zerg has less surface area with his army to attack you. Think about where the zerg wants to fight, and slowly push towards it, don't push to fast, there is almost no timer on your army composition like in WoL, you now have a much easier time dealing with broodlords because of the new thor. If you know where the zerg wants to engage your army, set your first tanks up separately in the back. You want to make a huge siege-tank line ! Most likely the zerg will have a maxed roach army. If your tanks are spread, the zerg engages the tanks in the front first while those in the back deal alot of damage. If the frontal tank is down the zerg needs to run to the next tank to take it down. Once the tanks in the front are dead, the zerg needs to close the distance to the next tanks to be able to attack them.Furthermore you have more potential to reposition a part of your army if you have a spread tank-line. Lets say you see the zerg wants to basetrade, you can just unsiege your tanks in the front and siege them back slowly, while the tanks in the back cover them.
To get the perfect split, i like to have a hellion in "hellion-mode" to scout ahead of the army. When I am in the position to siege the first tanks i just seperatley click them and tell them to siege, while i move command the rest of my army closer to the zerg. (Watch the video guide for better understanding)
Pictures are worth a thousand words:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TyNobZl.jpg) Scan ahead and siege the first tanks in case the zerg wants to engage ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KVu1gbi.jpg) We are spread out perfectly and the obstacles help us because the zerg needs to run around them. We win the fight with few losses and the zerg will try to remax quickly, so don't get over eager. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eeT3xks.jpg) So our reinforcements arrive, we brought some scvs for buffer and repair. The zerg also remaxed and we scan that he might consider to base-trade. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OBVHmW8.jpg) Our reaction is to unsiege the right part of our tank-line and move it to the left, in this way we are safe if he wants to base-trade, but also if he wants to force the engagement. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lEq8HOG.jpg) He decides to engage, because we had defensive tanks and were about to sandwich him. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yikJca7.jpg) Like a Boss, look at the supply.
Versus Ultralisks: This is similar to TvP versus mass chargeleg. Create choke areas by using your lategame factorys as part of a wall in front of your crucial mining base (for example in front of the 4th at daybreak). Then wait until you are maxed and slowley edge forward. Your army composition can include many thors vs. ultralisks.
Versus Broodlords: Thor Viking demolishes broodlord compositions.
Versus Broodlord Swarmhost Corruptor: I may consider this as the hard counter. You should try to kill the zerg before he gets this. If he has this composition i think the only counter is making enough vikings to kill of the corruptors, then kill the broodlords without support and try to overwhelm the swarmhosts afterwards. Even a mass Air switch might be viable here.
Versus Mutas: Just go for thor battle-hellion and mix in some widow-mines if you want. If its no surprising muta switch you should not lose to that.
Versus Vipers: Low Viper numbers benefit your army strength in theory if they use blinding cloud. Vipers cost 3 supply and if your spread they take away one of your tanks fire, so 3 supply aswell, BUT if the zerg engages, the tank will still act as a buffer and the zerg needs to kill it at first. When you have no vikings you can't do anything about abducts, rather than be ok with it or retreat. If you have vikings the vipers will die very fast and you are also prepared for some air switches.
React to cheese: We do not only go for the fast reaper opening to kill some drones, we mainly use it for the scouting information. You will see the gastiming of the zerg and can even sacrifice one reaper to scout if he did mine more than 100 gas. If this is the case and you scouted and all in like 1 base roach, or he did make a huge amount of zerglings which indicates a baneling bust, just build a bunker in your main, send your reaper(s) in, produce the first 2 widow mines, followed by 2 hellions and pump marauders out of your techlab baracks.
React to fast mutas: Since we saw the gas timing we now know if a zerg has the potential to go for fast mutas. We can pump out 2 thors when the armory is done, this will line up perfectly. We do also go for an ebay and protect the mineral line, the production and crucial sieged tanks with a turret or two. It is better to overreact to mutas, since mutas are a heavy investment for the zerg and an overall pretty bad unit vs. our playstyle.
React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame
React to heavy pressure: On some maps it might be harder to secure a third base due to the layout. But remember, the harder it is for you to get a third, the harder it is for the zerg to defend hellion run-byes and harassment.
Replays top
Feedback top
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Finally a good mech TvZ guide. Just saying thanks. Will read and learn 
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First of all your guide looks pretty damn good.
Very clean to read I like it.
But
Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)?
I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply.
So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark?
React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame
You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport.
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On April 02 2013 19:57 haaz wrote:First of all your guide looks pretty damn good. Very clean to read I like it. But Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)? I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply. So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark? Show nested quote +React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport.
You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens
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You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens
Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers?
There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark.
You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late.
You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?
Both answers are fail.
Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores.
Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg air
Damn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway.
And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes.
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On April 02 2013 19:57 haaz wrote:.... Why should I use your build instead of old wol hellion banshee style with defensive widow mines (if needed)? I mean, with hellion banshee you got opportunity to actually kill some drones, and in your build you just wait for timing attack with ~6 tanks, 4 thors + hellbats around 150 supply. So you let zerg make just anything they want to 14 min mark? Show nested quote +React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame You have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame? wtf man? broodlords would pwn u so hard, you dont even have starport.
Thanks for feedback,
as mentioned above this is only a buildorder until you have the 3 factorys, after that you have to adapt your playstyle depending on what you scouted. If I know there will be broodlords I will prepare with starports, as easy as it is. There are 2 games in the replaypack where i play vs. broodlords and they just die.
The lack of early harassment options is really a thing that i don't like either. I don't want to say that helion banshee allows you to harass the zerg heavily, but it definitely has more options to.
In regards to the helion banshee 3CC opening: With that opening you really have a hard time against well timed roach all-ins, which become more and more popular in HotS. Furthermore you delay a strong mechpush by delaying tankproduction.
In masters-league the strong macro into timing push was almost enough to finish every zerg, without early harassment (i don't know if its viable in grandmasters, but it worked fine vs. better zerg aswell). But why dont you just add a starport after the "buildorder" is finished and go for widow-mine or battle-helion drops with helion harass on the same time, if you want?
Or if you see the zerg drones to heavily just force units by faking a push.
So just adapt the "buildorder" and don't play every game down like before. Even if the zerg just goes up to 80 drones asap, you will be fine in a macrogame with those 3 OC's
A buildorder is adaptable !
edit:
On April 02 2013 20:26 haaz wrote:
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You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before?
Both answers are fail.
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We have enough scans available to scout properly. I recommend you to watch those replays.
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As I said above, with no harras included you relying too much on your push to do damage to zerg.
So if your push fails, then its gg.
I would say its allin.
Even if the zerg just goes up to 80 drones asap, you will be fine in a macrogame with those 3 OC's
There was a guy (grandmaster terran I think he name was Avilo?) who played 4 OC mech and still get outmacroed hard.
He played simillar passive style and raged a lot when zerg just a-moved his armies.
Maybe 14 cc rax gas opener would be better to fasten the push but it wouldnt help that much with no harras me thinks.
In regards to the helion banshee 3CC opening: With that opening you really have a hard time against well timed roach all-ins
Thats why we can make widow mines now and collect wins
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On April 02 2013 20:32 haaz wrote:
As I said above, with no harras included you relying too much on your push to do damage to zerg.
So if your push fails, then its gg.
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I don't agree with that, and once again recommend you to watch those replays and I won't answer you furthermore because you don't seem to listen.
We have a running reactor factory that can start 2 Hellions at a time, after we have the first 2 Widow Mines. Use them to harass and be happy (as seen in those replays)
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nice guide, would be nice if you played more games though and gave more detailed and specific answers as you improves your play style.
this definitely isn't a build you could win gsl with but its a solid macro style that many people masters and below can try, and you preface that so I think people need to take that into account when adding criticism
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hmm it's a fairly lengthy guide but very short in the interesting part: how to transition/play in the lategame. Vipers are quite a pain for this pain, some even think vipers instead of broodlords make the window of oppurtunity for mech even shorter than in WoL.
Just saying a blinding cloud takes out 1 tank thus 3 supply cancels eachother is very simplistic..
First of all it's quite hard to spread tanks enough to prevent blinding cloud owning you while at the same time they can't just pick off tanks with abduct. Besides that even if he does get 1 for 1 with his vipers (which can easily cast 2 clouds by the way) he is still getting a good deal because without tank support roach/hydra does really well agains the other factory units plus zerg tends to have a bigger economy.
The problem with mech at the moment seems to be that you need tanks to beat roaches/ultras but making too much makes you really vulnerable to vipers. Killing the vipers with vikings is easy but they tend to get off blinding clouds/abducts anyway neutralising your tanks after which they trade well with roaches, and then you are just screwed against a remax.
In higher levels you definately need a solid plan on how to deal with this if it's even possible at all. Seeing what the pro's play they don't feel comfortable in doing that which makes you wonder if mech is good at all.
Personally I've had some success with slowly mixing in some air later on. Instead of going too factory heavy you can just go for a mix of mech and BC's for example. You reduce your vulnerability to ultra's and blinding clouds in this fashion and BC's with the attack upgrade you have anyway are quite good.
Reaper into mech overall is a sweet way to open mech, instead of the 3rd OC going banshee or hellbat drop also works pretty well. I really wonder if we see some terrans using mech in the next GSL, I doubt it as long as MMMM just seems way better.
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On April 02 2013 20:26 haaz wrote:Show nested quote +You obviously just build a starport as the game goes on. See greater spire --> build vikings/ravens Yeah, but what stops zerg for just droning 10 minutes in game? 2 reapers? There is no harras included in this build just timing attack after 14 min mark. You saying that when you see greater spire you just start building vikings/ravens? Its far too late. You say, you build starports as the game goes on. So you build them when? After 14min push or before? Both answers are fail. Making starports before push means you weaken push itself = you did nothing with. Late banshees will not help either because zerg got spire and 3rd base already with spores. Making starports after push means its already gg for you because zerg have greater spire already and you have got no time to counter zerg air Damn zerg can just make mass swarm hosts and a-move you. He will make infestation pit anyway. And with afk 10 minutes droning he will get maxed with 4-5 bases at 12 minutes.
If you scout and scan for the greater spire, you can build them in time. Watch the replays. I like getting a starport around 12min at the latest to get ravens, but you don't have to.
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Watched some of the replays:
vs [CyG]Alpha (30 min game)
He was terrible. He played muta lings vs thor hellbat turret. I mean? wtf man?
He made ~40 banelings and then cancel them and lost a half.
He saw you got mass turret rings and still make mutalisks just only destroy some of them? (yeah his target were alone turrets not scvs).
He was lacking game plan. He played most of the time blind.
Even though you seemed to afraid him and attacked him after 16 min mark and 4th base placed.
He just made muta ling into ultra and pray he would win with that.
vs [Vin]BigL (30 min game)
Game starts with overreacting. He make spine crawler and ~20 lings to counter 2 reapers
Then he just suicide those lings to 2 mines. Make another lings and do this again.
Then he make 12+ roaches. 10 minute mark he got only 55 drones because of early stupid mistakes.
Here comes your 4 hellion harras and kills like 10 drones. You are far ahead now and can make anything you like but still game last 20 minutes more dont rly know why. Watching what happens.
He mass drones. Damn he was 20 drones away from you now he is even (no harras).
He does doom drop with roaches and manage to kill 20+ scvs.
17 minutes in game he is still on roach tech. He started spire and then greater.
You got no anti air. You go kill him after seeing greater spire ready. You manage to kill him before broodlords.
vs maths (7 min game)
He was random. You manage to kill 3 drones with 1 reaper and some lings. He choose to bane bust.
You defend with mines. Game over.
vs [iF]Renew (another 7 min game)
He did one base roach rush with bad build order. You scouted it with reaper and marauder bunker defended it.
Summary:
I dont say a word about those two 7 min games because its no need. You can just do the same with scv scout so no prove for reaper harras to be necessary.
In those two other games, you played afk macro games to 15-16 min mark, and then you push.
In those games you lack of anti air and only manage to win because of stupidness of enemies, no game plan by them, and even lack of mechanics, lack of metagame? and even though you seem to have some luck when you realized your lack of anti air. I mean who make roaches all game or mutalisk harras vs turret rings and thors?
If those players would just skip lings, defend with queens your reaper harras, then just afk make drones I am sorry but at 12 minutes mark zerg would have 4 bases and maxed already with no harras from your side.
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1. Thx for the guide.
2. Everyone stop bitchin'plz.... Atleast a couple of peeps try to make new/old strategies work (again), The "what if" question is never relevant, as it didnt happen and u can adapt build orders. U cant expect a buildorderwin out of a 14 min push for example.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Mass tanks is never a good idea. In hots there are plenty of units that can counter tanks and once you lose them its very hard to replenish them. And lets not forget about mobility, it's a pain to defend a fourth base with mech. You say thors are good against mutas but the zerg player can harass all your bases exploiting the thor's lack of mobility. There is a reason why all pro players dont go full mech vs zerg, some of them aren't even build a single siege tank. Widow mines almost replaced tanks.
PS: That replay with the mass roach din't proved anything except that the Zerg player was bad.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Versus Vipers: Low Viper numbers benefit your army strength in theory if they use blinding cloud. Vipers cost 3 supply and if your spread they take away one of your tanks fire, so 3 supply aswell, BUT if the zerg engages, the tank will still act as a buffer and the zerg needs to kill it at first. When you have no vikings you can't do anything about abducts, rather than be ok with it or retreat. If you have vikings the vipers will die very fast and you are also prepared for some air switches.
This is just wrong. Vipers have 2 Blinding Clouds at full energy, and because of Consume full energy isn't at all unrealistic. It's very, very common. So even if you split PERFECTLY you are still "trading" 6 supply of tanks per 3 supply Viper, and 300/250 for the 100/200 Viper. Against the opponent who should have more income than you. So I don't think your explanation for dealing with Vipers is satisfactory.
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The build is very solid.
I do something extremely similar in my TvZ (I basically do exactly the same thing, without the reaper opening, relying on 2 bunkers, since I will be more mineral heavy in the beginning, and then adding the mines as I make the bunkers)and I've been meching since WoL release.
The only real weakness is if the Zerg hits at some ridiculous timing just as you swap the barracks with the factory (extremely unlikely as there is no standard push like that in usual ladder play, the guy would have to study your build to counter it like that).
or
Some really fast mutalisk play.
Not sure if it's been mentioned but it is absolutely crucial to this build to deny the overlord scout with your marines at mid+ master play.
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Verry Solid build. And nice Guide Seems a bit weak to heavy all ins.
I prefer CC first into 5 rax + Reactor Factory. Push with 6-8 Mines. Seems to be verry good until now :D Killing Zergs so easy 
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i have a similar build, that let you push at 13:00(out of my base at 12:30) max and with the same things(4 thor 8 Hellbats and 8 tanks) i just made the 3cc after the attack and not before, you should try it, because pushing at 16 it's too late imho
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On April 02 2013 19:38 iSHOKZ wrote:
React to heavy droning/expanding: The easier it is for the zerg to expand, the easier it should be for you. Just expand with him and go into a macro game, you have nothing to be afraid of in the lategame
React to heavy pressure: On some maps it might be harder to secure a third base due to the layout. But remember, the harder it is for you to get a third, the harder it is for the zerg to defend hellion run-byes and harassment.
Well, overall good guide and your engagement tips seem valid (and not many master terran is that cautious when playing mech, or at least those I've played against).
However I have to disagree with the statements above. For starters you can not ever expand with the zerg while going for mech, as soon as a zerg player scout that the terran is going mech he could throw down 2 bases and there is pretty much nothing a terran can do about it. (like 10 minute mark), zerg will become more vulnerable to harassment (hellion or banshee) but decent defense or map awareness should prevent that from happening.
Same goes for hellion runbys there is no way a zerg should lose map awareness to a meching player, if it is not overlords wandering about it should be lings or watchtowers, so he should see that coming and be able to respond. And controlling watchtowers and such should be easy for the zerg since he is beeing aggressive.
Besides runbys is better when you have the faster army so only if the zerg goes pure roach is that viable even so he has to not see to be effective.
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On April 04 2013 03:37 Garmer wrote:
i have a similar build, that let you push at 13:00(out of my base at 12:30) max and with the same things(4 thor 8 Hellbats and 8 tanks) i just made the 3cc after the attack and not before, you should try it, because pushing at 16 it's too late imho
The push at the video was only so late because of how the match progressed. If you are able to macro up freely you can push sooner of course...
On April 04 2013 03:20 iFVeritas wrote:
...Seems a bit weak to heavy all ins.
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It is especially strong vs. heavy all ins !
You have early tanks, early 3 CC economy and early widow mines. And the reapers will tell you if there is an all in.
On April 02 2013 23:53 Psychobabas wrote:
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Some really fast mutalisk play.
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In my experience fast muta play is horrible against this. If the zerg goes fast mutas he won't have enough economy to hold my thor battle-helion push mixxed in with some tanks. I don't take any damage vs. mutas because of my thor timing and can push out like 3-4 minutes later with a huge army.
For example in a recent game vs. EmpireLerka: http://drop.sc/317792 (Where i did not expect mutas, because i scanned double evo chamber)
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If you want an aggressive opening you can play gasless expand into 2 factory blueflame harass. Kills every zerg who refuses to build some roaches and even with roaches he will loose some drones. You can take a fast 3. and 4. gas at your natural to get Thors fast and if he tries to all in with roaches you can use your techlab factory to build tanks. After that you can do everything you want and the timing push will come at the same time. That's how I like to play.
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On April 05 2013 00:14 Death944 wrote:
If you want an aggressive opening you can play gasless expand into 2 factory blueflame harass. Kills every zerg who refuses to build some roaches and even with roaches he will loose some drones.
Not really. If Zerg went 2-bases Lair, a simple Evo/Queens/Spine wall with some energy banked on Queens for Transfuses is all it takes to block any 2 fact BFH attack. Zerg will have to get Roaches to push you back anyway but he's not completely forced to have them ready when you hit if he has this wall. 2 fact BFH is no longer as horrible as in WoL, but it's still weak to an Overlord sacrifice followed by a proper reaction (or simply safe play with a wall).
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Hi there,
I personally do not read German, but the replay pack seems to be hosted on a German website which I need to register before I can download. Any chance of uploading it somewhere else?
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On April 05 2013 01:30 Kaylu wrote:
Hi there,
I personally do not read German, but the replay pack seems to be hosted on a German website which I need to register before I can download. Any chance of uploading it somewhere else?
Oh, damn did not realize you need to register for that.
I changed it, now you can download it without registration, just click on the only button you see. Thank you very much for showing me that mistake.
Good Luck !
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On April 04 2013 23:46 iSHOKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 03:37 Garmer wrote:
i have a similar build, that let you push at 13:00(out of my base at 12:30) max and with the same things(4 thor 8 Hellbats and 8 tanks) i just made the 3cc after the attack and not before, you should try it, because pushing at 16 it's too late imho The push at the video was only so late because of how the match progressed. If you are able to macro up freely you can push sooner of course...
u must delay the third to make the push happening at 12:00, it's not possible otherwise, anyway this build i think is basically unstoppable if the opponent go for fast 3, he can only stop it by mass producing from two base
On April 05 2013 00:14 Death944 wrote:
If you want an aggressive opening you can play gasless expand into 2 factory blueflame harass. Kills every zerg who refuses to build some roaches and even with roaches he will loose some drones. You can take a fast 3. and 4. gas at your natural to get Thors fast and if he tries to all in with roaches you can use your techlab factory to build tanks. After that you can do everything you want and the timing push will come at the same time. That's how I like to play.
not possible to have 4 thor 8 tanks and 8-12 hellbats at 12:00 with fast third
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Awesome build, work perfectly at my gold lvl ty, gj !
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On April 05 2013 01:50 iSHOKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:30 Kaylu wrote:
Hi there,
I personally do not read German, but the replay pack seems to be hosted on a German website which I need to register before I can download. Any chance of uploading it somewhere else?
Oh, damn did not realize you need to register for that. I changed it, now you can download it without registration, just click on the only button you see. Thank you very much for showing me that mistake. Good Luck !
Hey man,
Thank you for the super prompt reply and fix. Thanks for this guide. Really wanting to try out mech for a really long time. Cheers!!
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this build seems incredibly solid. i will definitely be giving it a shot. great guide
the complaints posted here are very nitpicky and not well thought out. try the build before you say something very negative.
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Awesome guide, very clear read! Don't listen to the haters!
Really love the video ! That section with 'how to engage with mech' helped me a TON!
I finally have some good idea how to play TvZ (and TvT :D)
Loved the "Pictures are worth a thousand words:" aswell, made me realise how bad i was playing not thinking at all :/
♥ much love
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Awesome build and guide. I have been playing mech non-stop in TvZ, this is awesome! I am sure there are many places to refine this build. For example earlier double reactor starports, just to be on the safe side
Dont listen to the hater who are not willing to listen. I can see why you rush tanks instead of banshee since it is a lot safer, and you can save up the gas for armory + double thor production right after.
This is not WOL anymore. Tanks don't need the siege mode upgrade anymore, meaning you can get thors and +1 weapon much faster (after the first tank) if you just skip the early starport + banshee.
This will hold against 2 base roach push better than the old banshee/hellion mech opening in WOL. As well as pwn all mutas openings.
Of course, as OP suggested you can transition into a tech lab starport after the first 3 fact.
And no harass? Hellions run by has always been the thing to do for TvZ mech. And the OP have been doing that in his replays.
Awesome guide +1
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HI - tried this build vs a zerg ( my friend) in custom - I was able to really max out fast and nearly had him - but BLs and Ultras were too much for me - can you look at this and tell me what went wrong ? Its a pretty intense game tbh! Thanks for the guide I would use this for sure if I can get why I lost with this cause I thought I was ahead most of the time. http://drop.sc/319140
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On April 08 2013 03:18 vahgar.r24 wrote:HI - tried this build vs a zerg ( my friend) in custom - I was able to really max out fast and nearly had him - but BLs and Ultras were too much for me - can you look at this and tell me what went wrong ? Its a pretty intense game tbh! Thanks for the guide I would use this for sure if I can get why I lost with this cause I thought I was ahead most of the time. http://drop.sc/319140
Hi, thanks for the feedback. Here is my replay analysis:
Since your gold i won't go into to much detail, only the overall mistakes.
You made your depot at 11 instead of 10, huge mistake that delays the whole build
Your build has nothing to do with my build, take a look at the replays or the "buildorder", its completley different other than that you play terran and mech.
Eitherway: If you mech get your gas geysers earlier at the 3rd base, before you land. You have 2000 Minerals and zero gas, you definatley need to produce more hellbats. I go for tank hellbat thor, rather than tank widowmine thor.
You have like 50 supply worth of widowmines burrowed around the map, but not in the fight, WHY? He caught you unsieged
Add more bases consistently, you always had the minerals to do so. If you do so you have alot of scans to see potential techsiwtches incoming. Then you would have known earlier about the broods, and produced more thors and also some vikings. You flooded so many minerals and gas all the time.
You always need support units for your thors, they really suck alone vs. zerglings !
Summary:
Engage better, spend your ressources better. Scout better to adapt your unit composition. The more roaches/hydras the more tanks you need. The more zergling muta the more thors+battle helions you need. The more broods the more vikings and thors you need, and so on. Your worker production was pretty decent for gold.
greets,
iSHOKZ
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solid build with great transition but i have to agree with the siege tanks. the meta right now is heavy air so unless its for a doom drop, mines just seem so much more viable to help with your lack in mobility. imo in my experience with mech on hots, mines make up for the lack in mobility. comitting thors is game ending.
i love your detail and supplying us a vid with replays. i hope there are more strategies to come, especially for the real problem (imo) for terran. . . AIRTOSSSS
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On April 08 2013 05:40 iSHOKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 03:18 vahgar.r24 wrote:HI - tried this build vs a zerg ( my friend) in custom - I was able to really max out fast and nearly had him - but BLs and Ultras were too much for me - can you look at this and tell me what went wrong ? Its a pretty intense game tbh! Thanks for the guide I would use this for sure if I can get why I lost with this cause I thought I was ahead most of the time. http://drop.sc/319140 + Show Spoiler +Hi, thanks for the feedback. Here is my replay analysis:
Since your gold i won't go into to much detail, only the overall mistakes.
You made your depot at 11 instead of 10, huge mistake that delays the whole build
Your build has nothing to do with my build, take a look at the replays or the "buildorder", its completley different other than that you play terran and mech.
Eitherway: If you mech get your gas geysers earlier at the 3rd base, before you land. You have 2000 Minerals and zero gas, you definatley need to produce more hellbats. I go for tank hellbat thor, rather than tank widowmine thor.
You have like 50 supply worth of widowmines burrowed around the map, but not in the fight, WHY? He caught you unsieged
Add more bases consistently, you always had the minerals to do so. If you do so you have alot of scans to see potential techsiwtches incoming. Then you would have known earlier about the broods, and produced more thors and also some vikings. You flooded so many minerals and gas all the time.
You always need support units for your thors, they really suck alone vs. zerglings ! Engage better, spend your ressources better. Scout better to adapt your unit composition. The more roaches/hydras the more tanks you need. The more zergling muta the more thors+battle helions you need. The more broods the more vikings and thors you need, and so on. Your worker production was pretty decent for gold. greets, iSHOKZ
Thanks! Yes lol I guess I got carried away with widow mines but i did no how else terran gets map control and with a mech heavy composition, Ive just a ball of units that are stuck at my base with no real vision - Will your unit composition and BO more closely and let you know
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hi there
Thank you for this fantastic strategy.
Can I translate this into Chinese edition?
much appreciate
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Thanks! Yes lol I guess I got carried away with widow mines but i did no how else terran gets map control and with a mech heavy composition, Ive just a ball of units that are stuck at my base with no real vision - Will your unit composition and BO more closely and let you know
i feel mines are essential in any type of play. its the most cost effective unit i believe.
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Versus Broodlord Swarmhost Corruptor: I may consider this as the hard counter. You should try to kill the zerg before he gets this. If he has this composition i think the only counter is making enough vikings to kill of the corruptors, then kill the broodlords without support and try to overwhelm the swarmhosts afterwards. Even a mass Air switch might be viable here.
Raven, BC, Viking counters this composition. Inbetween point defense drone, hunter seeker and yamato you have a lot of explosive damage.
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I love how organised this guide is Thank you!
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On April 11 2013 13:48 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +Versus Broodlord Swarmhost Corruptor: I may consider this as the hard counter. You should try to kill the zerg before he gets this. If he has this composition i think the only counter is making enough vikings to kill of the corruptors, then kill the broodlords without support and try to overwhelm the swarmhosts afterwards. Even a mass Air switch might be viable here. Raven, BC, Viking counters this composition. Inbetween point defense drone, hunter seeker and yamato you have a lot of explosive damage.
i hate this in starcraft 2, they force you to switch to air to counter enemy air, where in BW i just build Goliath, thus i continue to playing mech
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I'm more kind of a bio, Bio-tank, Bio-Mine Player, but very interesting Build indeed. Think this ones pretty sick for a boX series , great guide overall, +!
Cheers, sLi
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On April 09 2013 17:01 allqwdd wrote:
hi there
Thank you for this fantastic strategy.
Can I translate this into Chinese edition?
much appreciate
Hi,
of course
On April 10 2013 02:48 DariusDark wrote:Show nested quote +Thanks! Yes lol I guess I got carried away with widow mines but i did no how else terran gets map control and with a mech heavy composition, Ive just a ball of units that are stuck at my base with no real vision - Will your unit composition and BO more closely and let you know i feel mines are essential in any type of play. its the most cost effective unit i believe.
The problems with mines vs. zerg mech is, that they simply overlap with the other units, just being a bit worse.
Mines shoot air vs. mutas, but 3-4 thors in the mech army are fine to handle that too. Thors shoot consistently, whereas mines could be on cooldown when mutas arrive and you lose your whole army.
Mines destroy clumbed up lings and banelings. Battlehelions do the same, just without any gas costs and also without cooldown.
Mines take away the gas you need for a good tank count.
So in my mech play vs. zerg i don't use any mines at all, after the first 2-6 defensive ones.
In my TvP mech, mines are the most essential unit.
On April 11 2013 13:48 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +Versus Broodlord Swarmhost Corruptor: I may consider this as the hard counter. You should try to kill the zerg before he gets this. If he has this composition i think the only counter is making enough vikings to kill of the corruptors, then kill the broodlords without support and try to overwhelm the swarmhosts afterwards. Even a mass Air switch might be viable here. Raven, BC, Viking counters this composition. Inbetween point defense drone, hunter seeker and yamato you have a lot of explosive damage.
Yes, vs. lategame broodlord swarmhost corruptor you definitley need to go for a air transition.
The only problem with mech are midgame swarmhosts which is pretty hard to deal with, if the zerg had a good macro.
On April 11 2013 15:47 Beezleking wrote:I love how organised this guide is Thank you!
Thanks, appreciate that
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Pretty cool build. I would love to see it vs Mutas. Because I dont have sc2 right now. Wish you had a youtube of it
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Very nice strat and clean presentation! thanks a lot, I'll be working on this for my TvZ.
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Can I just say I laddered one match this morning, a little tired and not warmed up at all.
I'm rank 13 in platinum, and when I play zerg I always open up hellions and maybe banshee with a transition into mech.
I got supply blocked, his mutas killed all my tanks and hellions (because I forgot to get anti-air lol) and he killed half my workers in my natural before be-sieging my 3rd with like 15 swarm hosts with roach/ling support.
I just sat calmly back, got my upgrades, got a nice tank and thor count, then pushed out and steamed roll this guy (he was top 8 platinum)
Similarly yesterday when I was actually warmed up and playing fast and accurate, I meched against a diamond player and we duked it out for 44mins on Akilon wastes. Long story short, my mech build (bfh, thor, tanks, vikings, bcz) simply out muscled anything he threw at me. And I used the mobility of bfh to flank and kill drones.
My point here ladies and gentleman, is Iately I feel like I can faceroll on my keyboard against zerg; as long as I play mech. Because you know what, splitting marines against ling/bane/muta is painful.
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On April 26 2013 09:57 Dan26 wrote:
Can I just say I laddered one match this morning, a little tired and not warmed up at all.
I'm rank 13 in platinum, and when I play zerg I always open up hellions and maybe banshee with a transition into mech.
I got supply blocked, his mutas killed all my tanks and hellions (because I forgot to get anti-air lol) and he killed half my workers in my natural before be-sieging my 3rd with like 15 swarm hosts with roach/ling support.
I just sat calmly back, got my upgrades, got a nice tank and thor count, then pushed out and steamed roll this guy (he was top 8 platinum)
Similarly yesterday when I was actually warmed up and playing fast and accurate, I meched against a diamond player and we duked it out for 44mins on Akilon wastes. Long story short, my mech build (bfh, thor, tanks, vikings, bcz) simply out muscled anything he threw at me. And I used the mobility of bfh to flank and kill drones.
My point here ladies and gentleman, is Iately I feel like I can faceroll on my keyboard against zerg; as long as I play mech. Because you know what, splitting marines against ling/bane/muta is painful.
ly easy.
I finished it for you.
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A TvZ mech guide with no reference to Swarm Hosts at all.
Not sure how well that's going to work.
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I'm facing the same problem now 
Everything is fine, untill some form of (mass) swarm hosts come at me :/
How to deal with that ?
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Thanks for the guide! I do something similiar to this, but this looks good. I tend to get that single reaper to scout, but I never think that it is enough for scouting. I use scans from my CCs as well, but that is either a hit or miss for me.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 01 2013 17:26 Juice! wrote:I'm facing the same problem now Everything is fine, untill some form of (mass) swarm hosts come at me :/ How to deal with that ?
I've found that just getting enough tanks/mines to deal with the locust waves, heck even forward PFs being repaired can help and just go drop everywhere since they can't defend it. Especially thor drops on the tech.
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On May 01 2013 17:26 Juice! wrote:I'm facing the same problem now Everything is fine, untill some form of (mass) swarm hosts come at me :/ How to deal with that ?
When swarmhosts come, you need to be in a good position to fight it off. Economy need to be sort of equal to the Zerg or preferably even a little better. If you are behind at this point, the game is probably already over. It will basically be impossible for you to plant another expansion so you need economy to sustain you until you can fight it off.
The scariest position to be in is if the Zerg forced a lot of Thors from you before he went swarmhost. Thors are practically useless at dealing with locusts so the game will probably end if you try to defend 20 locusts with Thors. Instead, for defending you want Tanks. That way, you won't suffer any losses from the locusts. A healthy amount of properly positioned Tanks will be enough for defending.
So how do you defeat them? There are two good ways that I use. The most common way for me is to produce those aforementioned tanks and then produce nothing but hellbats. The hellbats will act as a buffer while you try to get those Tanks into position. Once again, if you are too far behind, this will probably not work. The other way (and the better, I might add) is some form of air transition. Raven's Seeker Missile deal with Swarm Hosts well, but possibly only because the Zerg will not bother to spread out the Swarm Hosts (never met a Zerg who did, vs SM's they just uproot all and run away).
BCs are obviously the best option. If you are on 4 base or more, a BC transition will likely be the best option for you to deal with them and secure a win.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I'd just like to thank you (incase I didn't before) for this guide. I thought I had a solid build for TvZ and it just completely sucked, I'm learning this and it's made my early game TvZ much better than it was before.
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On May 03 2013 16:43 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 17:26 Juice! wrote:I'm facing the same problem now Everything is fine, untill some form of (mass) swarm hosts come at me :/ How to deal with that ? When swarmhosts come, you need to be in a good position to fight it off. Economy need to be sort of equal to the Zerg or preferably even a little better. If you are behind at this point, the game is probably already over. It will basically be impossible for you to plant another expansion so you need economy to sustain you until you can fight it off. The scariest position to be in is if the Zerg forced a lot of Thors from you before he went swarmhost. Thors are practically useless at dealing with locusts so the game will probably end if you try to defend 20 locusts with Thors. Instead, for defending you want Tanks. That way, you won't suffer any losses from the locusts. A healthy amount of properly positioned Tanks will be enough for defending. So how do you defeat them? There are two good ways that I use. The most common way for me is to produce those aforementioned tanks and then produce nothing but hellbats. The hellbats will act as a buffer while you try to get those Tanks into position. Once again, if you are too far behind, this will probably not work. The other way (and the better, I might add) is some form of air transition. Raven's Seeker Missile deal with Swarm Hosts well, but possibly only because the Zerg will not bother to spread out the Swarm Hosts (never met a Zerg who did, vs SM's they just uproot all and run away). BCs are obviously the best option. If you are on 4 base or more, a BC transition will likely be the best option for you to deal with them and secure a win.
Zergs dont spread out swarm hosts because its not really good, the locusts come too far apart which can even give your tanks time to cooldown for another shot before the locusts further out get in range it also requires wayyyyy to much APM, Swarm hosts are already high apm to begin with. Im beating every mass swarm host Zerg with Mass corvid reactored ravens. i dont reveal my raven swarm until i reach a high enough number to destroy most of his swarm hosts with a single volley i want him to make as many swarm hosts as possible so he thinks hes "almost got me". The ravens will also deal nicely with the inevitable broodlords. they are forcing you to produce tanks so broodlords are the logical follow up. the extra minerals (and you will have many) are for transformation servos hellions to do raids on his expos. Works beautifully.
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Thanks for the nice write up
TL Forums definately needs a thanks button ^_^
Improved my TvZ A LOT
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Ofcourse made by a german <3 , thanks for it lol :D
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Thanks for the build i'll try tonight! I think mech helps a lot to players who haven't super micro.
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I think Ravens are really worth mentioning in that guide, with the seeker buff they are so great at dealing with broodlords, corrupters and swarmhosts, so everything that you can be afraid of. When I see swarmhosts I instantly get more starports and Ravens if I can afford them.
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This looks great. I'm curious (not sure if it's been asked, I haven't checked) how this would transition into like a mass-air mid-late game. I doubt you'd have much, if any, gas saved up after your initial mech opening and max/pressure, but if the game got to that point, does your space control allow for a lot of expands, thus gas intake?
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On May 08 2013 22:29 Kuroud0 wrote:
Thanks for the build i'll try tonight! I think mech helps a lot to players who haven't super micro.
You also don't need that much of multitasking, because you don't have to drop everywhere, but you can.
On May 09 2013 00:43 Mortal wrote:
This looks great. I'm curious (not sure if it's been asked, I haven't checked) how this would transition into like a mass-air mid-late game. I doubt you'd have much, if any, gas saved up after your initial mech opening and max/pressure, but if the game got to that point, does your space control allow for a lot of expands, thus gas intake?
This guide is just about a mech buildorder (which is not optimal i have to admit, because every higher level zerg will scout it without being denied because you don't get a marine out) and not about lategame tvz.
Of course you can transition into ravens and air if you want, but thats to much to include in a "simple" guide. You really have to have many bases to allow that kind of transition, otherwise you need to rely on a heavy battle-hellion composition + mass air, because you will have to many minerals.
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i (finally) made masters with this guide! (i even did it in TvP :D because i had/have no idea how to really do mech TvP ..) Only difference is that i didn't make that early 3rd
much love ♥
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On May 10 2013 21:01 Juice! wrote:
i (finally) made masters with this guide! (i even did it in TvP :D because i had/have no idea how to really do mech TvP ..) Only difference is that i didn't make that early 3rd
much love ♥
Nice to hear that,
good luck in your further process
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Russian Federation216 Posts
sorry for necro, but this is first link for google:
does it stil lviable? or are there better mech tvz guides? (since last patch killed biomines for me, im tired of losing to mutabling >ultras)
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goody its a guide from april...
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On November 13 2013 01:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
goody its a guide from april...
omg .. haha sorry .. did not see the date
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4e18QIs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LPoVwkU.jpg)
