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I don't think these two topics have to be linked but I think they can both help each other out. I use the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 . I am a programmer and a gamer, so I use keyboards basically all the time, and having a comfortable setup has, over time, proven to be very important. This also includes getting a more precise (gaming) mouse even when I'm at work. Anyways the relevant point to this discussion is that this makes certain keys that much harder to reach in starcraft. Namely everything to the left of the divide is very easy to reach, and the first keys on the right of the divide (n, h, y, and to a lesser extent 7) are still easy to reach simply because you can't mis-click the key to the left of it.
What this has forced me to realize, especially with more hotkeys required for HoTS, is that keeping my hotkeys close is even more important. I've been looking into ways to change problematic keys, but what I've realized is that these optimizations don't just help me and my crazy keyboard. Even when I played with a normal keyboard, hitting 8-0 was just as error-prone and hard. I want to create a list of ways to organize your keys at large to the left-hand side, with good valid reasons for each move. If I get lots of good suggestions and I'm up to the task, I'd absolutely love to consolidate each piece of feedback (accompanied by why the key move helps).
It would be unfair of me to not at least reference what has already been said (though I'm sure I haven't found it all). If you're protoss, there's a good starting point guide here. I am protoss now, though I played a lot of zerg in WoL, and if I start moving suggestions to the main thread I will not leave out any terran suggestions. I'll link more existing guides here as people point them out.
I'm sure someone will point out that I can't possibly be an awesome player with my current setup, but I don't think that means I can't benefit from optimizations in my layout the same way a pro would, and I'm sure even a pro player who is *good* at, for instance, reaching to 8-0 often could still benefit from those keys finding their way to a closer part of the keyboard, with the caveat of "to each his own". There is no "one best" layout for everyone. For instance for many people extra mouse buttons are great places to re-bind things, but for me it's absolutely terrible. For whatever reason I accidentally click/spam those extra mouse keys all the time, and even when it is a purposeful click, I have a very hard time binding actions to my mouse key. For me it's just better to leave them unbound. Though I'll still list good suggestions for those keys, just keep in mind that I myself won't adopt them.
Before I list specifics I want to mention one more thing. There are lots of ways you can change everything around, and time is a factor in how much you have to relearn. Just because you don't currently use a suggestion doesn't mean that if you had to the time to learn and adapt it (and re-train yourself to use it), it wouldn't end up being more efficient. Think of the list we want to build as a list of "if I had time to re-train myself, this would be the ideal setup". It's up to you what you adopt.
Important Concepts Related to Keybinding + Show Spoiler +Too few keys is detrimental+ Show Spoiler +There's a mental price to bindings too many types of things to one key. Let's say you bound the most used spell from every unit to "r" for that unit. Now when you're in a battle (let's say your unit hotkeys are 1-4 for ease of argument), do you hit 1-r, 2-r, 3-r? It would be very easy to accidentally cast the wrong spell from the wrong type of unit. Or perhaps you have multiple unit types selected with casting abilities. It would be very easy to accidentally cast from the wrong type of unit. This is a very worst-case-scenario way to look at it, but the point is that inevitably, you're going to bind many different types of things to the same key, but the goal should be to keep the context of overlapping key presses as separate as possible. What I mean to say is, if "b" is being used when you have a worker selected to bring up the build menu, but "b" is also used when you have stalkers selected to blink them, your brain will not screw up this confusion because: 1.) Those actions, to your brain, happen in a very distinctly different mindset/time of the game. 2.) Your hotkeys are setup such that attempting to do one of these actions won't accidentally do the other. Even if you have worker in your army hotkey group, the stalkers, and therefore blink, will always take precedence, and you never *mean* to open the build menu in this case, with everything selected.
Basically, when you move a hotkey, consider the side effects it has on other spells. Perhaps there is value in keeping this hotkey in a different, far location from some other similar action.
Too many keys is impractical (reaching-issues)+ Show Spoiler +Don't just assign keys to far-reaching areas because you don't have room for them closer. You might be able to assign the key somewhere closer, even if it conflicts with other uses of that key, so long as the conflicts are easy to separate for your brain, and easy to not screw up (accidentally do the wrong one). There's an obvious physical limit of time-spent to having keys too far away. When you have to reach beyond the "Starcraft II" homerow of keys (in other words, move your hand from it's default resting position while playing starcraft) there's a mental toll that is taken. Even if it doesn't limit your Actions Per Minute, it may limit your Unique Thoughts Per Minute.
Race-independent Suggestions + Show Spoiler +Bind F1->F5 (and Shift-F1 -> Shift-F5) to Camera Actions+ Show Spoiler +This one is often cited as an obvious "must do" for people. Keep in mind that this unbinds some default SC2 actions like select idle worker and select all army units, and you'll have to consider that moving those keys has a cost to your setup. Find somewhere else to put them, or if you don't want to/can't, only use some of the F keys for camera actions. The typical use for this is usually Shift-F<any_number_here> sets the camera position, and F<any_number_here> recalls your camera to that position later on.
Bind Tilde "~" as the 0th control group+ Show Spoiler +Some other options for this key include just binding it to a general action (idle worker, select all army, scouting unit, mothership core, etc). Basically you should try to use this key. It's one of the easiest keys to reach, and it defaults to doing nothing. Binding it to another control group (use 0 since that's the furthest away) makes sense as it's already on the same row as the other control groups. This essentially puts one more control group in your "comfort zone" as far as how far you can reach. Players looking to get more specific use from it bind it to things like idle worker or the other stuff mentioned above.
Bind "q" as another control group OR general action+ Show Spoiler +As pointed out in RemarK's Protoss Guide, "q" gets very little use from protoss, and is very easy to reach, so use it for something. *note* I do not know if this is the case for Zerg/Terran. An extra control group is nice, but there might be a mental cost to using it as such, as it's not in the nice sequential row setup that the others are (~ or 1 -> 0). This might be an easy thing for you to get over quickly, but try to be cognisant of whether or not this is slowing you down at all. Otherwise you can use it for idle worker, or select all army, or something else general.
Protoss Suggestions + Show Spoiler +Change Build Nexus from "n" to "t" or "q"+ Show Spoiler +"n" is just out of the "comfort zone" for your hand, and while it's not too much of an effort (hand-size notwithstanding) even on a non-ergonomic keyboard to reach "n", a closer key would save some time, especially in the later game where you've got a lot going on and you really just need to place that bad boy quickly. I list "t" as a possibility, but I'll not that it's more risky because via the "v"-build menu, "t" is for the Templar Archives, and being in the wrong build menu is a common mis-click. It's not *terribly* risky since the size of a nexus-in-progress is significantly larger than a Templar Archives-in-progress, but hey. In this way, "q" would be safer, but the caveat there is that people sometimes rebind "q" to a control group since it gets so little use from protoss normally.
Zerg Suggestions + Show Spoiler +Change Build Baneling Nest from "b" to "g"+ Show Spoiler +Or basically anything but "b". I think having any building bound to "b" or "v" is a pretty terrible idea. You've just hit "b" or "v" to bring up the building menu, and especially when you don't quite have the minerals for the building, you'll find yourself hitting the building key that you want to build a lot (let's say roach warren, as that's the other building you might want at this point in the game). Or maybe you decide to de-select the worker to wait for the resources and then come back and build it, but you didn't actually de-select the worker. Now Instead of hitting b->r to build the roach warren, your first hit of "b" builds the baneling nest. Surprise you don't notice until his marauders reach your base and the building finishes. Game over. Yes spamming is bad and it's better to hit each key with purpose, but the default setup of the baneling nest key is just asking for screw-ups.
Change Build Hatchery from "h" to "t"+ Show Spoiler +"h" is just out of the "comfort zone" for your hand, and while it's not too much of an effort (hand-size notwithstanding) even on a non-ergonomic keyboard to reach "h", a closer key would save some time, especially in the later game where you've got a lot going on and you really just need to place that bad boy quickly. I list "t" as a possibility, simply because it's not any building from the "b" or "v" build menus.
Terran Suggestions + Show Spoiler +
That's it for now. I look forward to hearing from and sharing all the cool and creative stuff people have done.
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Those are some decent suggestions. Personally, the only hotkeys I've remapped is the save camera locations from F5-F9 (or whatever they are) to F1-F5. I think why I haven't changed any more than those few is because I'm afraid of screwing up my muscle memory and everything else. It would take a number of days to get used to it. That's also why I haven't changed to a hotkey setup like TheGrid.
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United States4883 Posts
I appreciate most of this, although I personally think ergonomic keyboards are a mistake. Then again, I don't sit at my desk and type all day for a living (though I suppose I do spend quite some time at my desk anyway), so maybe I'm wrong.
To address the idea of "far away" keys and having to shift: I honestly just treat it as if I'm playing a musical instrument and you have different "positions". If, for instance, you move your hand to the right side of the keyboard and anchor your thumb on R Ctrl, you can suddenly reach 8-0, backspace, and a few other keys with ease and comfort. There's no reason why a position like this can't be as comfortable as your "SC2 home row", making your only obstacle the movement from one side of the keyboard to the other.
Which, of course, is impossible on an ergonomic keyboard.
Of course, there are all of the really common hotkey rebindings that pretty much everyone (using standard hotkeys, not grid) should follow: Rebind cyber core from "y" to "r", rebind MsC from "m" to "r", rebind immortal from "i" to "r", rebind lift/land from "l" to "b" or another common key, rebind guardian shield from "g" to "r", rebind corruptor from "c" to "x" (to avoid building ovies), etc., etc....
Hotkey threads have been done to death though, I feel like all of the information is floating around in TL somewhere already.
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I wonder if the Core would would work with this kind of keyboard. Seems like it'd fare better than standard.
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The core on it's small variant would fate extremely well on this keyboard if you're okay with tilting your hand the way the keyboard is waved towards.
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Why would you change your nexus build key. It goes very nicely with the B and then N since your finger is already right there.
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I play terran and recently switched to TheCore, and I don't see any keys that I would use on the left side of the divide, so you'd be set just playing on the right side (assuming you are right handed; if you are lefty then same thing but just on left side of keyboard).
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I don't like the keyboard at all since it is definitely not a gamer keyboard. When you play games, you will only have one hand on the keyboard and when there is a gigantic gap in the middle, restricting the amount of keys you can easily reach with your left hand, it will make a lot of things unnecessarily more difficult for unproven ergonomic advantages (as if that slight curve would make any difference...).
This keyboard is designed for people who have never learned an own typing method and use both their hands for every keyboard input. Basically the complete opposite to me as I can enter short things (for example for google, gaming, ...) with my left hand alone at almost equal speed.
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On April 01 2013 13:32 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: I wonder if the Core would would work with this kind of keyboard. Seems like it'd fare better than standard.
TheCore would not work with this keyboard (at least the medium-and-larger layouts; I'm unsure about the small layout). G is used in the medium layouts.
I don't know if Microsoft's ergo keyboards would be suitable for TheCore from an ergonomic standpoint, however. The right-hand-side of the keyboard is curved to be better for your right hand. Wouldn't having your left hand to use TheCore on the opposite side of the keyboard be (possibly) worse for your wrist and fingers?
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I switched to TheCore and feel its very compact and efficient. I feel it promotes good habits like army on multiple control groups, camera usage, and regularly checking all your production. Not that I couldn't do that with standard layout, but it was more awkward and slower. If something is easier, you'll do it more often than if it was hard.
However, TheCore is far more radical than tweaking the standard Blizzard layout. It also feels very strange initially, since the pinky and thumb have added responsibility.
As mentioned, TheCore ought to be fine with an ergo keyboard since everything is on the half you're using.
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On April 03 2013 02:54 th3bra1n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 13:32 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: I wonder if the Core would would work with this kind of keyboard. Seems like it'd fare better than standard. TheCore would not work with this keyboard (at least the medium-and-larger layouts; I'm unsure about the small layout). G is used in the medium layouts. I don't know if Microsoft's ergo keyboards would be suitable for TheCore from an ergonomic standpoint, however. The right-hand-side of the keyboard is curved to be better for your right hand. Wouldn't having your left hand to use TheCore on the opposite side of the keyboard be (possibly) worse for your wrist and fingers?
I might be missing something, but I don't believe a layout for right-handed players uses G.
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TheCore works very well on the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000. But you need to dedicate quite some time (minimum 30 games) to get started with it, and the layout is in heavy flux because it is coming out of beta and some last minute changes are under consideration. Which may also result in the G key no longer being used on right handed layout. But that key was rarely ever used before, and you could replace it with the enter key since the layout doesn't allow much chat typing anyway.
So yeah.. try TheCore, if you have the time. The layout is also reduced strain for me, but that may be personal.
Also: This keyboard is so comfy Especially with the front riser, it's great. I've burned through 4 of them in the past 5 years, 2 professionally and 2 at home... I've looked at mechanical ergo keyboards, but none of them are as comfortable as these as far as I've been able to tell.
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@Ticcie Are you suggesting that the pain is necessary to use/learn a layout? Unless I misunderstood something in your post, I'd say that's a pretty masochistic view on ergonomics, especially when using a layout like TheCore that really shines ergonomically. TheCore looks comfortable on most keyboards after rotating the keyboard, except for these types of keyboards with slanted/uneven keys. Why not just use a solid standard keyboard for TheCore and an ergonomic one for typing if you burn through so many? TheCore is already set up great for standard keyboards right? If you tilt a standard keyboard, and feel how TheCore's keys are laid out, there's a direction your fingers will glide that takes you to the adjacent keys; wouldn't these ergonomic keyboards work against this idea?
I understand that personal preference trumps reasoning 99% of the time because people are different and have different needs, but I was just wondering if there was some sort of process you went through to come to your conclusions? I could be missing something huge here.
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I have no idea why people even try to use or base their hotkeys into normal hotkey layout. My own, race independent(i play all races) hotkey layout fits on that left part of your keyboard quite easily, only cutting couple of hotkeys out which could be replaced on that left side aswell. 1 to 6, Z to V control groups, Q to Y all movement/attack and such commands, A to G all spells, Q to T, A to G all buildings, A to G, Q to T all unit creation. Simple, logical and easily reachable.
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If you're using an ergonomic keyboard, just use gridkeys. Seems like a simple solution. Is there something I'm missing?
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On April 03 2013 05:25 eneyeseekay wrote: @Ticcie Are you suggesting that the pain is necessary to use/learn a layout? Unless I misunderstood something in your post, I'd say that's a pretty masochistic view on ergonomics, especially when using a layout like TheCore that really shines ergonomically. TheCore looks comfortable on most keyboards after rotating the keyboard, except for these types of keyboards with slanted/uneven keys. Why not just use a solid standard keyboard for TheCore and an ergonomic one for typing if you burn through so many? TheCore is already set up great for standard keyboards right? If you tilt a standard keyboard, and feel how TheCore's keys are laid out, there's a direction your fingers will glide that takes you to the adjacent keys; wouldn't these ergonomic keyboards work against this idea?
I understand that personal preference trumps reasoning 99% of the time because people are different and have different needs, but I was just wondering if there was some sort of process you went through to come to your conclusions? I could be missing something huge here.
O wow the word pain was terrible in this context I meant the initial learning period being a pain in the ass, not literal pain.
I have tried two keyboards side by side while I was using regular hotkeys (because those are actually terrible on ergo keyboards), but having different physical keypress properties made it a pretty bad experience. To be honest I have not tried TheCore on a regular keyboard, wrist/finger movement wise it is very comfortable on a ergonomics keyboard so I haven't felt the need.
@Xapti A reason not to use grid is that it is still pretty terrible for control groups and camera locations. Another is that the keys are not optimised so the ones you use most are not under the home positions thus requiring extra movement. Grid is a decent solution but if someone is serious about ergonomics and willing to dedicate the time to learn TheCore I believe it is a better set up. But yeah, preference... things are not black and white.
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+ Show Spoiler +O wow the word pain was terrible in this context  I meant the initial learning period being a pain in the ass, not literal pain. I have tried two keyboards side by side while I was using regular hotkeys (because those are actually terrible on ergo keyboards), but having different physical keypress properties made it a pretty bad experience. To be honest I have not tried TheCore on a regular keyboard, wrist/finger movement wise it is very comfortable on a ergonomics keyboard so I haven't felt the need. @Xapti A reason not to use grid is that it is still pretty terrible for control groups and camera locations. Another is that the keys are not optimised so the ones you use most are not under the home positions thus requiring extra movement. Grid is a decent solution but if someone is serious about ergonomics and willing to dedicate the time to learn TheCore I believe it is a better set up. But yeah, preference... things are not black and white.
Ok, haha.. Makes sense now. I knew that TheCore takes some getting used to, but I was 100% sure it wasn't pain-inducing, or at least it isn't designed to be.
Non-optimized/modified Grid is still far better than Standard imo, people just don't seem to be familiar with it. Not doing any shameless plugging here, but there are Grid-based, or should I say "developed" Grid-inspired layouts that solve pretty much all of your concerns.
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On April 03 2013 03:10 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:54 th3bra1n wrote:On April 01 2013 13:32 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: I wonder if the Core would would work with this kind of keyboard. Seems like it'd fare better than standard. TheCore would not work with this keyboard (at least the medium-and-larger layouts; I'm unsure about the small layout). G is used in the medium layouts. I don't know if Microsoft's ergo keyboards would be suitable for TheCore from an ergonomic standpoint, however. The right-hand-side of the keyboard is curved to be better for your right hand. Wouldn't having your left hand to use TheCore on the opposite side of the keyboard be (possibly) worse for your wrist and fingers? I might be missing something, but I don't believe a layout for right-handed players uses G.
On RRM 0.6.3, G is used for:
- Hatchery --> Lair and Lair --> Hive upgrade
- Ultralisk
- Hallucinate Probe
The reference images are from 0.5 (fairly old).
On April 03 2013 05:25 eneyeseekay wrote: @Ticcie Are you suggesting that the pain is necessary to use/learn a layout? Unless I misunderstood something in your post, I'd say that's a pretty masochistic view on ergonomics, especially when using a layout like TheCore that really shines ergonomically. TheCore looks comfortable on most keyboards after rotating the keyboard, except for these types of keyboards with slanted/uneven keys. Why not just use a solid standard keyboard for TheCore and an ergonomic one for typing if you burn through so many? TheCore is already set up great for standard keyboards right? If you tilt a standard keyboard, and feel how TheCore's keys are laid out, there's a direction your fingers will glide that takes you to the adjacent keys; wouldn't these ergonomic keyboards work against this idea?
I understand that personal preference trumps reasoning 99% of the time because people are different and have different needs, but I was just wondering if there was some sort of process you went through to come to your conclusions? I could be missing something huge here.
Another keyboard layout was done, Chameleon, that's supposed to have many of the benefits of TheCore without the benefit of having your thumb on the Shift and Ctrl keys. Maybe that's a better layout to use if you want to stick with your MS Ergo.
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I really think people are making way to big of a deal out of keyboards, mice and hotkeys. They way they influence your gameplay is so minimal that's barely relevant. Being able to hit a key 0.2 seconds faster is irrelevant when you're supply blocking yourself for 10 seconds.
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