After a lot of requests and a bunch of time: Here we go, the video version of Stephano ZvP Build Order.
I've been working really hard to create this guide about an easy to execute build order in Zerg versus Protoss. It is a very well rounded build order that works incredibly good in the current metagame and is the build order that most professionals use.
The written build order:
Stephanos Standard Zerg versus Protoss Build Order (vs MaNa) 15 Pool 16 Hatchery 15 Overlord
@Spawning Pool Queen + 2 Lings + 2 Drones + 1 Drone (rally Cocoon to 3rd base)
- Cancel drone production until 3rd base
Chase/search for the Probe with Lings Queue up second queen
Make sure it’s early 2nd Nexus by Protoss Inject with the Queen, walk to natural
Start 3rd base
Mass droning
22 Overlord 31 Overlord
Queen @ natural + creep tumor to the 3rd Base Mass droning
41 Overlord
5:50-6:00 Double Gas Geyser
43 Overlord
6:30 3rd Gas 6:30 Overlord scouting, find gas + tech 7:00 Roach warren
vs 4 Gas
@100 Gas: Lair @100 Gas: Speed + Evo @Roach warren: Macro hatch + 4th Gas
Thanks for putting down in a clear manner this awesome BO. Could you detail the 6:30 Overlord scouting ? What are the possibilities, and incase you scout only 2 or 3 gaz and no tech building, what is to be expected ?
On January 08 2013 20:31 ArhK wrote: Thanks for putting down in a clear manner this awesome BO. Could you detail the 6:30 Overlord scouting ? What are the possibilities, and incase you scout only 2 or 3 gaz and no tech building, what is to be expected ?
Thanks by advance :-).
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
If you see no gas at the natural: Go for speed first, then lair, then upgrade. This is usually big big gateway agression or something like blink stalker agression. Go for speed and start making units, potentially even delay your lair till you hold the push. If he doesn't push, he took an incredibly greedy 3rd base: Attack him instead and go for a lair behind it if you didn't already.
If you see 1 gas at the natural: Go for either lair or speed, depending on how the game went and how you saw his chronoboost being spent (and overlord scout). You can expect a timing push at this point. It's going to be something like blink stalker, big gateway agression with a bit more sentries, potentially something weird with voidrays or something like that.
If you see 2 gas at the natural: Go for instant lair and then speed (he either expands or goes for a high tech push as in air, immortals, colossus, dt etc.)
He perfected his ZvP since then. Things such as his gas timings are changed a little tiny bit as well as the macro hatch timing. I also try to focus more on the build order then the strategy. Day9 is much better at explaining stuff than me tho, so you should definitely watch that as well, just keep in mind that Stephano made a few minor changes since then.
I'm always wondering why most zerg build only 2 lings since they don't dps enough to kill a pylon and later on a gate/forge in order to block the expand... Sure it costs a lost, but the hatch's delay is huge aswell... Isn't that worth it ?
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
Until you get roflstomped by 7gates from two gas at the nat.
7 gates without warptech isn't that dangerous. He needs gas for warptech.
Once you execute the build order a lot of times you will start to realise what times are normal and what times aren't. Once you see a gas going down around or before 6:00 for the Protoss you know something is up and you need to check the main instantly. 7-8 gate all ins are happening sometimes but still scoutable with lings at the front by counting the amount of chrono boost is spent on the CC.
I didn't cover this in the video because it just goes too in depth and that wasn't what the video was meant for. I can surely make another video about this. Thanks for your comment!
Anyway, if he decides to pump out roach-ling (in case of a sentry immortal all in for example) wouldn't 4 geysers be too many? Ideally you want 57 workers, 9 on gas and 48 on minerals. Wouldn't he be floating gas?
On January 08 2013 23:11 Henk wrote: Anyway, if he decides to pump out roach-ling (in case of a sentry immortal all in for example) wouldn't 4 geysers be too many? Ideally you want 57 workers, 9 on gas and 48 on minerals. Wouldn't he be floating gas?
Stephano currently plays a style with either mass roach and a bunch of lings if necissary, or he transitions straight into double upgrades with infestors. This build indeed gives a bit too much gas for both Roach and a lot of zerglings.
If you want to be going for loads and loads of agression (as in 11:30 max out roach ling) you definitely want to take the gasses a little later, but you still want to have 4, just drones on minerals for a bit longer. In that case you want to take 2 at 5:50 and 2 once your lair finishes.
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
Until you get roflstomped by 7gates from two gas at the nat.
7 gates without warptech isn't that dangerous. He needs gas for warptech.
This is not true. There are plenty of games where Protoss went 7 gate with 1 gas or took two gas, then stopped mining from one of them.
Like I mentioned: You can still scout this coming, however it's a lot more in depth and you need a lot more APM and really know what you're doing. The best way to realise this 1 gas all in is coming is by checking his front constantly, him trying to hide his initial probe, no moving out with a stalker and a zealot and no gasses being take whatsoever. You also have to realise that this is an all in and you are 100% fine simply spining up your main or natural and going for the counter attack which he will not be able to hold.
This is all much more in depth than I wanted this video to be. Hope this helps however!
On January 08 2013 20:31 ArhK wrote: Thanks for putting down in a clear manner this awesome BO. Could you detail the 6:30 Overlord scouting ? What are the possibilities, and incase you scout only 2 or 3 gaz and no tech building, what is to be expected ?
Thanks by advance :-).
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
If you see no gas at the natural: Go for speed first, then lair, then upgrade. This is usually big big gateway agression or something like blink stalker agression. Go for speed and start making units, potentially even delay your lair till you hold the push. If he doesn't push, he took an incredibly greedy 3rd base: Attack him instead and go for a lair behind it if you didn't already.
If you see 1 gas at the natural: Go for either lair or speed, depending on how the game went and how you saw his chronoboost being spent (and overlord scout). You can expect a timing push at this point. It's going to be something like blink stalker, big gateway agression with a bit more sentries, potentially something weird with voidrays or something like that.
If you see 2 gas at the natural: Go for instant lair and then speed (he either expands or goes for a high tech push as in air, immortals, colossus, dt etc.)
Hope that helps!
~Lowko
If going for 3 gas based builds, always take the main gas closest to the scouting overlord, then both gas geysers at the natural, most zergs then assume you're on 4 gas.
On January 08 2013 20:31 ArhK wrote: Thanks for putting down in a clear manner this awesome BO. Could you detail the 6:30 Overlord scouting ? What are the possibilities, and incase you scout only 2 or 3 gaz and no tech building, what is to be expected ?
Thanks by advance :-).
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
If you see no gas at the natural: Go for speed first, then lair, then upgrade. This is usually big big gateway agression or something like blink stalker agression. Go for speed and start making units, potentially even delay your lair till you hold the push. If he doesn't push, he took an incredibly greedy 3rd base: Attack him instead and go for a lair behind it if you didn't already.
If you see 1 gas at the natural: Go for either lair or speed, depending on how the game went and how you saw his chronoboost being spent (and overlord scout). You can expect a timing push at this point. It's going to be something like blink stalker, big gateway agression with a bit more sentries, potentially something weird with voidrays or something like that.
If you see 2 gas at the natural: Go for instant lair and then speed (he either expands or goes for a high tech push as in air, immortals, colossus, dt etc.)
Hope that helps!
~Lowko
If going for 3 gas based builds, always take the main gas closest to the scouting overlord, then both gas geysers at the natural, most zergs then assume you're on 4 gas.
That will certainly work if the Zerg isn't really aware what's going on.
On January 08 2013 21:41 RaiZ wrote: I'm always wondering why most zerg build only 2 lings since they don't dps enough to kill a pylon and later on a gate/forge in order to block the expand... Sure it costs a lost, but the hatch's delay is huge aswell... Isn't that worth it ?
Once a zerg scouts the pylon block at the front they will most of the time go for 4 zerglings. A gateway block is way too much of an investment because at that point the zerg can simply move to the 3rd right away while keeping a mind that you just spent 250 minerals on useless buildings. It might be worth it in the lower leagues, because zergs aren't sure how to deal with. Once you move up the ladder however I feel it get's less and less good, because zergs will simply change up some timings.
On January 08 2013 20:31 ArhK wrote: Thanks for putting down in a clear manner this awesome BO. Could you detail the 6:30 Overlord scouting ? What are the possibilities, and incase you scout only 2 or 3 gaz and no tech building, what is to be expected ?
Thanks by advance :-).
You can assume the protoss took double gas in the main base.
If you see no gas at the natural: Go for speed first, then lair, then upgrade. This is usually big big gateway agression or something like blink stalker agression. Go for speed and start making units, potentially even delay your lair till you hold the push. If he doesn't push, he took an incredibly greedy 3rd base: Attack him instead and go for a lair behind it if you didn't already.
~Lowko
hmm, if you see no gas at the natural, you shouldn't get lair + upgrade. you will die to hardcore gateway aggression since your zerglings will be eaten by +1 zealots and the game will end before you can take advantage of lair tech and +1 attack. you need roach warren and need to spend the gas on the roaches.
On January 10 2013 08:51 aka_star wrote: hmm Old standard stuff, I don't see anything new that hasn't been known for over 6 months in regard to the zvp opening
This is true, but its nice for new players like me.
On January 10 2013 08:51 aka_star wrote: hmm Old standard stuff, I don't see anything new that hasn't been known for over 6 months in regard to the zvp opening
except that this guy put it all in a 5 minute video that's easy and enjoyable to watch
hmm, if you see no gas at the natural, you shouldn't get lair + upgrade. you will die to hardcore gateway aggression since your zerglings will be eaten by +1 zealots and the game will end before you can take advantage of lair tech and +1 attack. you need roach warren and need to spend the gas on the roaches.
No, you need to get lair up ASAP to get roach speed started.
hmm, if you see no gas at the natural, you shouldn't get lair + upgrade. you will die to hardcore gateway aggression since your zerglings will be eaten by +1 zealots and the game will end before you can take advantage of lair tech and +1 attack. you need roach warren and need to spend the gas on the roaches.
No, you need to get lair up ASAP to get roach speed started.
This is not true. You need that roach warren down asap, and you need that 200 gas (lair and speed) for roaches. Or you will die to a pre 8 min, mass zealot timing attack off one or two gas
I like this guide, However, I think you should add more to the Build order: such as more ovie timings.
Stephano will typically ge two ovies at 52. and tw more in the mid 60's. This allows him to get to 78 or higher supply by 8 min. which is totally baller, and needed to stop any well executed immortal all in.
Would you suggest that ranged upgrades are better than melee with this? I always seem to see pros going for +1 melee rather than attack, but I could be wrong.
On January 13 2013 01:14 Puzo wrote: Would you suggest that ranged upgrades are better than melee with this? I always seem to see pros going for +1 melee rather than attack, but I could be wrong.
Ranged upgrades are better for stephano's kind of play because he goes heavy on roaches. Other pros tend to favor ling based armies and more infestors. Roaches also get 2 extra damage from an upgrade giving you a more powerful burst damage. Another reason would be that ranged upgrades are just more powerful against toss pushes because he will always ff lings out or have colossus to deal with lings.
On January 13 2013 01:14 Puzo wrote: Would you suggest that ranged upgrades are better than melee with this? I always seem to see pros going for +1 melee rather than attack, but I could be wrong.
He will usually go for +1 range, if the toss is still on two base. and will continue with +2 range if he is going for roach max, or defending an all in off two base.
Pro's will go to plus 1/1 melee and cara, if the protoss goes for a fast third, AND/OR will go for 1/1 after +1 range attack, if its a two base tech expand.
Some pros, like Slush, will go for +1/1 Melee, and Range, all the way till 3/3 for max DPS.
The upgrade order depend on your style of play in zvp.
Is this essentially the most standard ZvP at the moment? Just wondering about the specific gas timings as a toss player.... which this has certainly been helpful for. Good work man.
On January 13 2013 14:23 Brindled wrote: Thank you for this! I'm switching to Zerg from Protoss, and this will help me smooth the transition with at least one match up.
No problem! Really happy to help out. If you have any problems with the build order: Feel free to either post it here or sent me a message.
On January 13 2013 02:56 Puzo wrote: Ok, thanks. I guess basically get +1 attack unless they do an early expand, then go from there then!
well, you should be getting +1 attack no matter what. whether it's ranged or melee is up to you but you shouldn't delay upgrading just because you don't know what your opponent is going for. +1 ranged is safer.
it's a bit of metagame. if you think your opponent is going for fast third, then people wgo for +1 melee/carapace and opt for the late game with better upgrades. if you go for +1 melee and your opponent actually does some all-in, your upgraded lings will be invalidated by sentries, blink stalkers, etc.
On January 08 2013 21:41 RaiZ wrote: I'm always wondering why most zerg build only 2 lings since they don't dps enough to kill a pylon and later on a gate/forge in order to block the expand... Sure it costs a lost, but the hatch's delay is huge aswell... Isn't that worth it ?
The 2 lings are not to kill anything, but to scout. it is always possible the Toss went for Gateway harass or wants to put out a pylon in anticipation of a later push or simply is trying to hide a probe. By making 2 lings you can define the opening from the Protoss a lot more, which is extremely important.
@Lowko
Great work! Seeying a BO from Stephano always gives an opportunity to learn. Anyone who is sooo good that doesn't has no use reading these forums anyway :p
Thanks for the video! It's nice that you took time to make a video with a replay instead of just writing down the build order, since I am more of a visual learner^^
Also, Stephano, take double gaz when he have 42/44 drones in generaly...
And, normaly, at 7min10, you can have 70drones with double gaz , roach warren and evo chamber put and, in your video, you just have 60drones...Pretty behind i think.
To many guide on this build, and, all have the same error...You didn't explain how to defend vs all of all in...
On January 15 2013 09:52 Clink wrote: Also, Stephano, take double gaz when he have 42/44 drones in generaly...
42/44 Drones is still roughly right around the 6:00 mark
On January 15 2013 09:52 Clink wrote: And, normaly, at 7min10, you can have 70drones with double gaz , roach warren and evo chamber put and, in your video, you just have 60drones...Pretty behind i think.
Note taking is absolutely essential to SC2 improvement. On the topic of taking detailed SC2 notes, QxC stated in an MLG interview that “it's the people who are the best that are winning today, but it's the people who improve the fastest that win tomorrow.” It is my firm belief that any player who does not keep a StarCraft II notebook is at a severe disadvantage compared to those who do.
So often people assume that queuing up more ladder games leads to faster improvement, or as WhiteRa puts it: “More gg, more skill!” While it is true that practicing more will help you get better, it is perhaps more important to ensure that your practice time is as effective as possible. This is why the first thing I do when coaching a new student is advise them to “Open a word file or get a pen and paper...you're going to need it!”
Remember: you MUST mark your progress if you want to improve the efficiency of your practice! Therefore to learn and perfect Stephano's ZvP style, I encourage you to make a total of eight detailed benchmarks, analyzing every minute between 5:00 and 12:00. This will help you assess your current strengths and pinpoint exactly when and where you're deviating from the build. To analyze your games so close might seem a little excessive at first, however it is the most effective way to pinpoint your mistakes and improve your note taking skills.
For the Stephano-Style, here are benchmarks you can aim for:
Note: These benchmarks are estimations that you can compare to your own timings. The most important benchmark is the 8:00 Mark, where you've reached peak 3 base saturation and can begin producing Roaches and Zerglings.
On January 15 2013 09:52 Clink wrote: To many guide on this build, and, all have the same error...You didn't explain how to defend vs all of all in...
For my view, it's a bad copy of Liquipedia...
This is just a guide showing a standard ZvP opening. After the opening, everything becomes game specific. It's aim is not to teach you "if opponent does this, then this is how you defend it". If you think you can do a better job, take the time to make your own video...
I can't make video, i haven't enough good english atm.
And, you're wrong. At 6:00 mark, you have 46-52 drones if you have a good macro.
Ok, so, why make an another guide didn't say thing in more when a complet guide exist ?
Maybe i'm explain myself wrong, i just want to say : Why make an another guide with same ,less or outdated information ? Because your link is outdated when you can see player make 200pop pure roach at 10:40 mark.
20sec is huge, if you can product army 20sec in avance than a all in like 7go robot centry, you can defend more easier or make more easier.
On January 15 2013 12:51 Clink wrote: And, you're wrong. At 6:00 mark, you have 46-52 drones if you have a good macro.
> You said, Stephano takes his gas at 42/44 supply > What I meant was, at 42/44 supply, that's still around the 6:00 mark (when you take double gas). I mistyped and said drone. My Mistake.
On January 15 2013 12:51 Clink wrote: Maybe i'm explain myself wrong, i just want to say : Why make an another guide with same ,less or outdated information ? Because your link is outdated when you can see player make 200pop pure roach at 10:40 mark.
The build I linked might be outdated, but for Stephano style ZvP, the macro benchmarks I listed in my previous post are roughly the same. 8 minutes into the game he has 3 saturated bases which should be about 66 drones (16 drones mining per base and 3 on each gas). At that point in the video he starts roach production. This is just a minimum benchmark as far as how many drones you should have at that point in the game. Of course you can have more...
On January 15 2013 13:54 Joedaddy wrote: Lowko, you really have a great voice for this stuff. Your enthusiasm and way of talking are just great. Have you considered doing casting at all?
Thanks, yep I'm working on it, but it's hard to get a decent viewerbase on YouTube because other bigger casters basicly dominate all the search results.
Guys, to be clear. Stephano takes double gas once he hits 42-44 supply. Which is in every single game between the 5:50 and 6:00 mark. If you don't hit that amount of supply between 5:50 and 6:00 you know what you should be working on to get better in ZvP.
I'm working on more guides on how to defend specific all ins, this video was just a starting point. I will make videos about the different all ins and how to scout them. This is just a lot more in depth and not something I wanted in this video.
Can someone tell me how I could have put the 4th hatch ? This game I won but I'd really know how you can afford that 4th hatch while macroing all of this. I simply couldn't. Just don't watch the game until the end, just watch the beginning and tell me where I could've done better, cauz I know that if I can't put that 4th hatch, I'd simply lose to every kind of allins the toss can throw at me.
Thanks for your help cauz i'm really desperate... Been master since beta and can't break this fucking GM level.
Edit : Here's another replay, where i did a slight variation (3rd hatch before 2nd queen, feels more natural to me), and losing exactly to this allin i'm talking about...
On January 18 2013 22:54 RaiZ wrote: Can someone tell me how I could have put the 4th hatch ? This game I won but I'd really know how you can afford that 4th hatch while macroing all of this. I simply couldn't. Just don't watch the game until the end, just watch the beginning and tell me where I could've done better, cauz I know that if I can't put that 4th hatch, I'd simply lose to every kind of allins the toss can throw at me.
Thanks for your help cauz i'm really desperate... Been master since beta and can't break this fucking GM level.
Edit : Here's another replay, where i did a slight variation (3rd hatch before 2nd queen, feels more natural to me), and losing exactly to this allin i'm talking about...
I'm currently not on a machine that has StarCraft on it, but compare your game to Stephano. How many drones does he have when he threw down his macro hatchery? How many did you have?
If you can't afford the macro hatchery you either didn't drone hard enough, or made too many units early on.
EPT
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