|
Hi guys i am relatively new to zerg being playing for about 3 weeks now so excuse my ignorance. I would post this in the Zerg Help Me thread but this isn't a particular issue i am struggling with but rather a concept i want to explore with other players.
After studying some day 9 dailies to be specific (516; 512 and 485) it is the general consensus that during the early stages of the game zerg relies heavily on scouting to determine any early aggression; macro play; cheeses etc.
Assuming that the opponent is playing a macro game and seeks to win/push between mid/late game the zerg player should be heavily droning until about 75 drones; once this point is reached ideally the zerg player wants to have a 3rd and possible 4th base (4th being less crucial). After the first benchmark has been reached the zerg player needs to begin upgrades; teching and continue to scout to determine army composition and movements.
+ Show Spoiler +Based off the day 9 dailies the zerg player wants to defend early aggression (not something as strong as a 4 gate but just a early push to harass) with static defense and lava inexpensive units (queens and if need be minimal roaches and lings). Now the problem that i encounter when i think of this is, for example you scout an early push coming nothing too daunting but enough to force you to stop droning to respond appropriately. Lets say for example that you just spent your round of lava on drones so you currently have 1-2 lava sitting around (generated from the hatcheries every 15 seconds) while waiting for the next inject to pop, from the time it takes his/her push to go from their base (A) to your base (B) you're frantically building spines, spores and basically what ever required to delay until you can get your next round of units out. My issue with this is, what if its too late? What if the units spawned from the lava injects while the opponent is knocking on your front door is not enough?
+ Show Spoiler +For instance, a 110 food terran player lets say about 60 food army so its decent sized but nothing too insane. One round of units from 3 hatcheries will most likely NOT be enough to save you from this push but perhaps with the increased static defense you will be able to hold. Anyway, this brings me to my overall problem.. what happens when a push is coming that you've scouted as early as possible but you don't have the ability to defend appropriately due to bad luck with injects and droning (an example i gave above)??
+ Show Spoiler +Day 9 places a lot of emphasis on how randomly building army units is BADDDDDD early game because you're randomly building units IN CASE something happens when there is no guarantee that this will happen and this is allegedly the WRONG way to play zerg. Apparently it is good to 'just hold a push by producing army units in response to a push than it is to have an army build in random anticipation and hold' as this method provides you with a way of learning even if you lose.
+ Show Spoiler +Now this method confuses me a little as Day 9 stresses that building units in random anticipation is bad and if you fail to hold the push you can learn from it. How do you learn from this though? assuming you scouted appropriately and you knew the exact moment he decided his army was big enough for him to push and move out and at that moment you stopped using your lava for droning and started up static defenses and army units however you were still unable to hold the push. It seems like the only thing you would learn from this is 'Okay, when his army is about 'this' big and its around 'this' time i should stop droning and start building lava inexpensive units to hold the push and then start teching and droning again until you can win at hive tech. However this method will still require you to have scouted his army and ANTICIPATE he will be moving out soon and in ANTICIPATION you start building an appropriate army to hold his push. What if you were incorrect and he didn't push? you have just delayed your droning and hive tech considerably on an educated guess? What if he did push and you managed to hold? however this seems to contradict the whole theory behind not building an army in anticipation.
Just wanting to know if i have the right understanding about this concept and if anyone can clear this up from me? If anyone who does not understand what i am talking about or wants to improve their zerg play i'd suggest taking a look at those dailies as they are quite insightful.
Anyway, i look forward to hearing any responses about this concept.
Regards,
Ryrymanpie
|
Well, you gave an example of a 110 food terran pushing. A 110 food terran pushing is no early game harass, it's just a timing push. There is no reason you should not have any army out when the terran is at 110 supply. If you droned up to a good amount, let's say 70, then made some units and teched, you should have plenty of time to get an army capable of delaying/destroying the push.
Edit; You talk about delaying hive tech. It's safe to say tech depends on gas, and not so much on minerals. Against a Terran going marine tank, you'll want infestors anyway. Teching to BL before getting infestors will most likely never work. For example, making lings doesn't really delay hive tech. Then, when you see him pushing, morph some of those into banelings. If you morph banes before you see him push you might've wasted your gas.
Hope this clears it up a little bit, perhaps someone else has a better and more thorough explanation for you.
|
Hi Henk,
Firstly thank you for the reply, i should have been more specific in what i was saying but as you have said said getting BL's before infestors won't work and as infestor BL is a strong late game army composition there is no harm getting them out where possible and they are also lava inexpensive unit.
I think my post is focusing more on early game than lair tech but the general idea is not to go over the top with building an entire army.
Haha i am actually finding it very difficult to explain what i mean!!
Regards,
Ryrymanpie
|
The worse your scouting information, the more safe you need to play (detection, aa, some preemptive army e.g. to defend drops). A lot of information is indirect, e.g. your opponents gas/expand timings. At lower level you might be better off to always get some army ~7..8 minutes (if opponent fast expanded). However do not sit around with your units but try to harrass/deny expansions with them.
|
As you say the good way to learn zerg is dying to a push with 80 drones and 0 units. Why? because next time you scout the same thing you should know you have to build drones. If you randomly make units and stop the push, you don't learn anything.
If you scout something, and you make units in response and then he does not come, there are two options:
1. Your scout was correct and he is playing bad. In that case everything is okay, he`s delaying himself so there's no problem.
2. Your scout was incorrect and you made a ton of units for no reason. Now you're fucked up. This is zerg, it have easy macro-mechanics but needs a slightly better decision making and reaction. Later, watch you replay and know what he was doing and be prepared next time.
I think the only way to know when to drone and when to make units is to play a lot of games and understand why and when you lost. I also think that a good knowdeledge of the other race helps a lot.
Also, you don't have to wait until a 110 push to make units. This is for early game timing pushes, once you reach your bases saturation you can go full unit production. Many times you will need to make units to be able to take another base and then drone more, but well you will learn it by playing a ton of games.
|
I guess I can reiterate, Zerg scouting is a lot different that any other race. That is because you are either building unit or drones never a mix. Generally speaking. So when scouting thi.ha to look for would consiest of gas timings. You can click on the gysers to see how much is actually mined. After that you want to know what he is spending his gas on. So playing against terran. Send ab overlors is approx. 6 min. You should send an overlord in. If he kills it its a huge tell by how many marines he has. Of he has 4 or less. It's most likely some form of reactor hellion banshee. That or a fast 3cc. A fast 3cc usually is mech ans you should rush to hive. But make an overseerer about 8min to make sure. If it is thats when u wanna rush BL. If you see more than 4ish marines it was a 1rax Fe and he added on more. Probably doing some sort of marine tank timing. This time you can just suicide one ling.in front at about 8 mins to confirm. If he has 20+ marines at 8 minutes you wanna make a round of lings abd. So about 20 so you can make banelongs when he pushes out. And you make the rest of the lings then also.
Vs protoss you need to send an overlord in Nd.check.for addition gateways over 3-4. If he he's all 4 gases then its usually defensive tech play. Or immo sentry allin. If he only has2 its a sign of aggression. If you have get all the way in you can tell by the units he has. If he has like 3-5 sentrys its defensive if you seen one stalker its a sign of aggresion. If you see stalkers or gateways. Like 7-8. You want to drone to 60 macro hatch ay 730. And start making roach ling. If you do it right you don't need static defense although it helps sometimes.
Hopefully that helped a little, Calypso
|
with zerg i find you have to know the other races better!!! You have to know the kind of attacks they can throw at you, its this which dictates drones over army. Its a simple concept, what are they doing? Well i know that build X usually pushes out at ??? and hits ??? seconds later. Clever zergs will know how many larva they will have pop in that time and how long the unit will be after that. the key is to hold early aggression and fast pushes with a minimal amount of stuff ,the rest has to go into drones. Get to about 75 of these on 3 base to start to do whatever you want. Get more bases just for gas. This is all you need to get used to and over time watching streams and playing your games you get really used to the way this actually happens in the games you play. when you know you are safe for at least this round of injects, drone. If you know something fishy is going on, build units, static defence depending on whats coming and then constantly scout. keep on top of injects, building the units and or drones or thinking to expand.
With zerg you really want to pour you money into your tech path
Eg - ZvP scenario 1 - you rock up to their base with ur first overlord and see that they are fast expanding. we know at this point we can take a fast 3rd ourselves. we can do this as 400 mins for them is a lot of cash and they wont be able to get units out as well, they would have been saving before hand. If you are going a fast lair you can get an overseer soon, if not ur 2nd ovie should be round the other side of his base by the 6 min mark. Look for the gas on the bases, sac the overlords and see what hes making, if all 4 are taken around the 6 mins mark you know hes going to be teching so pushes are going to be 9+ mins, you can pretty much saturate ur 3 bases in this time and then switch to units. In this situation i will have 4 queens, 1 spine at the 3rd and have taken the towers. Ur econ at this point is in good shape. At this point you need to see what they are building and immediately upon sight of colossus drop ur spire, check to see u are upgrading whatever it is your going (in my case i see a colossus play ill go for broods so get the melee ups as a priority)
then you expand further urself to get gas and to transfer drones who are bouncing around in low min patches. You go mad on teching from here and trading with their army.
Scenario 2 - You do all the above but with the ovie sac u see a complete robo bay at 6 mins . . this should trigger the allin light in ur head, you need to get a feel of what is early and not looking at probe counts cos if i see 2 unsaturated bases i know whats coming cannot be reinforced, and will be a lot weaker than u see on pro streams so at this point forget droning and build units, i always start an upgrade as well. GET SPEED for lings and SPREAD CREEP. For the longest time i never spread creep but now that ive focussed it into my play i feel safer and the lings actually do more dps cos they get there quicker! catch pushes leaving his base to see what hes got then spam roaches and lings usually. I will build like 1-2 drones per inject cycle at this point ther rest lings and roaches. My full focus is now on seeing his army with 1 ling sacrifices and ovies poking so they dont get killed, but you can rest assured if you do this you can flip right back into drones again
in a nut shell. Know the other guys builds and constantly scout. But if your really worried just build drones, better to loose to having too much of a good economy than not having any at all. zerg have the weakest units one on one and their playstyle is the remax to keep the rights even. Waw, i get so into offering advice sorry for the long read
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
