EPT[G] StimmedProbe's 5 Factory Mech TvP - Page 6
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On October 27 2012 02:31 Nightmarjoo wrote: How were these in any way food for thought? Why would you even post these?http://drop.sc/268041 http://drop.sc/268040 Food for thought. In both cases you deviate from SP's build in ways that put you severely behind where he would be at a similar point in the game. You weren't even coming close to his army strength and supply at similar timings, because you kept delaying yourself for no real gain. I guess what we can pull from this is that if you do a really awful version of this build it's not very good? Thanks for the info buddy! | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On October 26 2012 22:26 Methy wrote: If Protoss takes a third that quickly AND has multiple gateways AND a Robo AND makes himself safe to hellion run-bys, he'll be incredibly vulnerable to cloaked banshee harrass, and frankly any non-zero number of units before the 10 minute mark. If you do this build without deviation and fail to punish an extremely greedy opening by Protoss, and he hard-counters mech units with his composition, sure you'll probably get crushed. That's to be expected. Thanks for the heads up!It's not about composition - it's about playstyle. Fundamentally, Mech cannot put on substantial pressure until *at least* 10 minutes, and even then usually 13 or 14, they can harass, sure, but that's it. Standard Protoss play involves making sure you're safe from attacks in the early parts of the game. Think about how long it took protoss to figure out straight up 50 food stim timings? A long time, and builds that they do now incorporate being safe against them (early 3 gates + sentries) Against mech this isn't an issue, you play it out like broodwar, a third base off 1 or 2 gates and maybe a robo (though you don't need the robo because of the lack of mines). Taking a third at 6 minutes, walling it in tight to prevent hellion run byes, chronoboosting right up to 70 probes at 10 minutes, ignoring upgrades all together, skipping sentries (except for maybe having 1 to deflect hellions), and then flooding with gateway units/immortals. That is how you deal with mech, and it is incredibly effective. On the other hand, that playstyle will cripple you against bio. If you're trying to match 2 base vs 2 base PvT mech, the Protoss player should always lose, no one is disputing that. This build is immensely strong in those situations because of how efficient mech armies are. The issues with TvZ mech *WERE* simply 'composition' issues - roach busts before siege mode were crippling, but getting early tanks against mutalisks was similarly crippling, the solution was to add in banshees to keep you safe against roaches, and effectively transition straight to thors for protection against mutas. Every strategy is going to have strengths and weaknesses. This strategy is incredibly strong against "standard" play, and provides the infrastructure needed for deviation if the Protoss goes for something super greedy. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On November 28 2012 15:30 scrubbingbbl wrote: Great build. how do you deal with an early blink obs with this build? bunkers in main? You die more or less. You need to rule out 3/4 gate before nexus or any tech all-in / pressure build before going double refinery off of 1 rax. Anything else is a gamble in my opinion. | ||
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headnut
Belgium58 Posts
new replay vs high master protoss | ||
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shamanas
Greece7 Posts
I'm having a lot of toruble dealing with zealot heavy compositions and HTs/archons though. Here is a replay of me crushing a platinum protoss: http://drop.sc/283319 | ||
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Mia
75 Posts
On November 29 2012 01:21 RampancyTW wrote: If Protoss takes a third that quickly AND has multiple gateways AND a Robo AND makes himself safe to hellion run-bys, he'll be incredibly vulnerable to cloaked banshee harrass, and frankly any non-zero number of units before the 10 minute mark. If you do this build without deviation and fail to punish an extremely greedy opening by Protoss, and he hard-counters mech units with his composition, sure you'll probably get crushed. That's to be expected. Thanks for the heads up! Every strategy is going to have strengths and weaknesses. This strategy is incredibly strong against "standard" play, and provides the infrastructure needed for deviation if the Protoss goes for something super greedy. if he makes himself safe from runbys(cannons/stalkers) he is safe vs banshee harras to. The counter to this build is fast third, just as you scout he is meching at 8min, you drop your third nexus, and tech to zealot archon, while building up immortal count. When terran push out, just flank him from 3-4 sides and he will be screwed. Though i agree doing normal build with later third for toss might be insta lose vs this. The idea is force his obs to state at home with banshee and if he tryes to scout you out with obs kill it with scan and marines before finding out your build. This will force toss to play in blind and not do optimal build agains your mech. Also i think Supernova does somwhat similar opening with fast cc and cloack banshee and fast third, but he transitions into bio, so researching his play might be useful. Also consider doing 12rax 13gas builds with cloack banshee to make opponents think its 1-1-1, while you cut corners(stop marine production at 4, get fast 3oc), since he will cut his probe production, while doing just small damage with your banshee,, might make you miles ahead of your opponents, and then you do your mech push, also there will be large posibility that toss will tech to colossus suspecting 1-1-1 and have totally wrong composition. Basically smart play is very important for terran mech play, good multitask/micro/macro wont be enough. just my 2cents. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On December 12 2012 11:34 Sated wrote: Basically, I think this is only working for you because your opponent's haven't seen it before and don't know how to react. This doesn't surprise me, as you seem to be a master of creating gimmicky builds that will only work against someone who hasn't seen them before. Not that this is a bad thing, I just feel like I should point out how weak this build will be against a proper response as it's strength seems to lie in catching the opponent off-guard (as in they've gone for a standard composition instead of tailoring their composition to compete with yours). So, moving off this point, has anyone played this build against against Skytoss? I mostly play Skytoss PvZ, occasionally PvP, and I feel like a gate robo gate expand would scout this plenty early enough to respond with a 5 phoenix opener. Phoenixes will hard counter both banshee and hellion play early on, and will be a major thorn in the side of siege tank lines later on. Additionally, they force either turrets, thors, or vikings, none of which are very good against the logical follow-up to phoenixes, carriers. I'd be very interested to see how this build fares against a good Skytoss player. | ||
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Generalul
Romania114 Posts
 I have to note that this build is somewhat vulnerable to some crazy toss allins, like the 4 gate prism, and is hard to scout sometimes (best to send the first helion in, but it will be later that in a standard 1 base 1-1-1 push and it may be too late). | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Sweetfrost
Sweden213 Posts
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Hot_Ice
139 Posts
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mrslunk
6 Posts
Something may still be salvageable out of it however. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
On May 10 2013 14:34 mrslunk wrote: First thought to me is that the opening will flat out die to any proxy oracle build and there are plenty of them. Something may still be salvageable out of it however. The big thing is if you're going mech there's little to no reason for you not to get an early ebay if you scout 2 gas. It not only keeps you alive vs oracles but it also stops dts killing you too. I don't play with this exact build, but that's what you need to do as mech. | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
IMO, the safest current TvP build is Reaper->Reactor Marines expansion->Widow Mine drop. The first mine is up fast enough to defend you from Oracles, and you have plenty of Marines to defend the natural and fend off a Mothership Core poke. From there, I suppose you can go into Tanks+Banshees into more Factories. However, I feel weird trying this build as I don't know how well I could get the gas timings to line up so that I can actually get the tech I want at the WoL benchmarks. Also, Void Rays would tear this shit apart (especially with the buff). In the long term, Stargate play in general seems very problematic. If you see air, you need to make the right amount of Thors. Makes me really sad too... I'd LOVE to play Mech TvP... I might just go back to WoL just to play this build... Hehehe. This and Mech TvZ. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
Yes, it's for WoL, but there's not too much to change to get it to work in HotS imo. As was already mentioned, I'd add an early ebay to deal with Oracles. In exchange you don't have to research Siegemode anymore. The idea to get one more reactored Factory instead of a Techlab'ed for WidowMines is also nice. I'll definitely try it... maybe even in the other matchups with some appropriate tweaks. | ||
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