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Hi there. I'm a master terran on EU (Mid) and I just got owned by a nydus all in on Daybreak. The guy basically popped a nydus right outside my natural (still far away from SCVs and my bunker) and unloaded 4+ queens and a ton of roaches and also morphed an overseer there.
I went for reactor/hellion into mech and he saw it earlier. Hence he did this insane build. But since hellion/banshee is the most common and imo best opener in TvZ I would like some help on how to deal with this all-in that I consider the strongest all in vs reactor/hellion. My build was 12 rax, 15 gas (pretty awkward gas but it's essentialy very fast CC and average fast tech, so I like it.)
Everything looked standard, he took a 3rd but didn't get to saturate it yet, which is pretty normal. My hellions and banshees were at his tower when his nydus popped down, I did get back in fairly ''good'' time tho because I saw his nydus on minimap, but theres no units to kill what hes got.
The nydus pops up at 8:30 where I have 6 hellions, 1 banshee and 2 marines. heres the replay: http://drop.sc/256956
Thanks in advance
edit: this isn't even an all-in, is it? he got a 3rd and can drone up hard behind this. More like a strong pressure build*.
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Hello Thylacine, I'm also a Masters Terran
Generally I do a hellion run by with that build once I get my first banshee, I haven't thought of this particular situation before, but it would let me catch the lair.
If I were to spot the lair, I would probably freak out a bit and scan alot till I find out which tech tree he's going down, and eventually catch the nydus.
Then you could probably get more stuff up at home?
Its an interesting idea from the zerg, but if it fails, you instantly win the game, pretty much. thats a huge army investment for the 8:30 minute mark, and you can do counter run by's with like 3 hellions behind it.
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Okay. A runby of all hellions + banshee or just one hellion? I hate risking to lose everything and doing no damage so I generally don't wanna do any runby's. I still don't understand what I could get up at home.
It's really hard already to hold off a roach rush when you see them march from their base and appear at your natural way later, this is like a super roach rush that banshees die too aswell.
anyone else got any help?
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Well it really depends on what I see at the front, if I see a partial or complete walloff, I don't. but generally its just 4 hellions, which can almost always trade positively.
I generally try to pull his queens to his 3rd by poking it, then runby into his main pretty quickly, he generally doesn't have creep spread between them at this point.
also, there is no way he has enough gas for 1-1 ups and lair/nydus AND roaches. so if he walled with evo chambers, check to make sure they're active maybe?
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this sounds like the build curious used against mkp i think, different abit of course but the main thing is the nydus + roach +queen attack early on
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Check replay - he had a wall of roach warren and evo chamber. It was only there for walling and potential spore crawlers. He has 2 queens blocking with the roach warren + evo chamber, runby isn't possible.
Rofl.
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Frankly, its a pretty devious build, you're just going to have to outlast him. put up bunkers and such, and wait till you have alot of banshees, sniping queens as often as possible, you will have to retreat to your main, and he might even break in. you'll have to kite around a bit and just wait for your banshees to clean it all up. Maybe invest in a viking to get that overseer? although he might get spores.
I really feel like counterattacking with 2-3 hellions after the nydus comes up will be key, because he'll either loose everything or devote a few hundred resources to hold it, which is a substantial amout of his army.
Also, crisis techlab on barracks maybe?
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Was way to late to add a lab to the rax. And 1 marauder won't even make a dent in his 10 roaches. If I retreat to main he will still break in easily, and do massive damage. I can't repair efficently because my SCV's get sniped by roaches.
The queens also snipe them! And they can transfuse the roaches. Seriously fucking shit, what is this build? I'm not sure there is a way to beat it with hellion/banshee unless I roast all his drones and stuff.
If I enter his base he can just load all drones into nydus or get roaches from nydus back into his main xD
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its okay if he breaks your main, that means its either: way later, or he can't possibly have his queens with him. that means that you just have to run around a minute or two while your banshees kill everything he owns, or the techlab rax WILL have made a difference. one of the two.
Edit: Marauders in bunkers can snipe roaches sniping SCV's without allow that many roaches to snipe the bunkers right up against the wall.
aka: if your bunker is ~ 3 units away from your wall, you can always hit roaches hitting your wall while not allowing more than 1-3 roaches to hit your bunker at any point while the wall is up.
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It will take his queens like 30 seconds max to go up the ramp. He also put down a creep tumor there. My bunker was in good position for this, behind my ramp but I'm talking about if he would just kill my wall upstairs and then go in?
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I had a look at the replay, this is the 2 Base Nydus build that Curious used against MKP in GSL Code S.
I was very curious (no pun intended) on how to scout and counter this, and came to the conclusion that in case of a walled-in natural you have no choice but to scan the early lair and guess what is up... I'm not a good player by any mean, but this is what I would do in this situation.
And while this build is not really all-in, if scouted you have a good chance to come back given that you do not take too much economical damage at your natural...
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Im kinda bad so this may be really wrong:
Pokeing with your hellions to see what he got seems to be key here. His roachwarren was at his door and he had queens to be really blocking of to prevent your scouting. Also when his queens left you could have roasted alot of drones like everyone says, so you have to poke to get the oppurtunity, tho i don't know if it's worth some of the hellions life just to scout it.
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As Zerg I'm going to start using this :D mech is such a pain  .
Could you try using your starport to build a viking after your initial banshee to try and snipe overlords?
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On September 24 2012 00:17 zasta wrote:As Zerg I'm going to start using this :D mech is such a pain . Could you try using your starport to build a viking after your initial banshee to try and snipe overlords?
Good idea, but the zerg can just send a ling to his base and nydus via that
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Thank you everyone. The conclusion is that this is an extremly powerful build that isn't fully all in but does 100% more dmg then most all ins. I hate whining but that's how I feel. Hope I never face this again because frankly, I will never be able to counter this. :D
Btw the viking idea isnt a good idea since as Supert0fu said, can just send a ling (which cannot be stopped, honestly, he can just run around watch towers and stuff) and nydus that way. And also, making a viking halters my banshee production which is crucial.
Thanks for all the replies guys, appreciate it. Nothing more to discuss here.
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I copied a similar build from Curious on GSL Code S this season. Forgot which game but it was in the first group stage.
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I would like to talk about this more. This looks very hard to scout. The issue I see is that the queens don't have to walk across the map and they can deal with the banshees and the roaches can win the ground battle.
Here is what I can figure out would be indicative of the attack:
*Lots of queens but not much creep spread (presumably they would save for transfuse) - unreliable since creep spread varies so much person to person
*evo chamber not researching anything. - more often than not it will be an oversight.
*lair with no spire/infestation pit - More often than not his tier 2 tech building will be hidden
This just looks extremely hard to scout since, absent a lucky scan on the nydus it's unlikely in the present metagame. The lack of early gas or a late third makes it look very macro-y, and I'm unlikely to waste more than one scan on it.
I thought that maybe this is a coin flip type of scenario, but the OL was at the gases by about 4 minutes. If T goes double gas after FE and Z sees it with OL, I think switching into this build is very doable, so the Z can do it based on the Terran's actions and does not have to make a pre-emptive decision to do the attack.
I thought about getting cloak. I don't think it will cut it.
I thought about them maybe not researching speed and this being indicative of the attack, but I don't think it is really that useful of an idea.
I don't think a run by is even practical. The guy has 3 queens and 4 lings with an evo/roach warren wall. If he could get through, he would sacrifice the hellions for just about nothing.
I'm really at a loss for how to deal with this.
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Maybe you could switch out the tech lab on the Starport and put it on the Barracks and try to get out maruaders?
Thats really the only thing i can think of + bunker on the high ground to deal with this. Never faced/used this on ladder personlly so i dont really know
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Recently used by Curious in the GSL. This build capitalizes on terrans that go the popular FE into hellion + banshee harass. It is designed to circumnavigate the map control normally give to terran when they build hellions+banshees.
Also even if you manage to take out their anti-air, you gotta remember that roaches will just do so much damage before your banshees can kill them all.
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Mid Master T here.
Pretty tricky build to scout. At first i'd say your scouting failed as you have no idea if he's putting down an early third(small indication that he went gasless but not enough). Your first 2-4 hellions can usually confirm that and start start poking at it and i figure you'd be wondering "Why is he building roaches that he's rallying to his natural and not saving my third?"
Should he start attacking your roaches his allin is either going to be delayed or he's going to lose his third.
This should either prompt you to assume a roach/ling allin and maybe even banelings and perhaps promote you to either scan or fly in with your banshee to confirm what he's actually doing.
As for defending the build itself i can't respond as i don't use mech.
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Masters EU Terran here.
1) You didn't scout him, any of his timings.
1a) With that you couldn't know anything and you didn't put any kind of pressure on him / wasting his apm.
1b) If you see a roach warren, get a bunker in the front. Thats what i do, saved me tons of times.
2) Your macro was not optimal while the attack was happening, your rax should make marines.
3) You mis micro'd.
3a) Losing your second banshee almost instantly because you didn't cloack it.
3b) Losing your first banshee because you pulled it 2 yards back but then did nothing with it.
3c) Let your hellions do SPLASH damage, you let your hellions fight 1 on 1 with the roaches. Micro them.
3d) 2 marines afk, the damage they could've been doing adds up.
4) The moment he attacks you, he's behind economicly. Don't be afraid to use a couple of SCV"s. To either fight or repair your units.
In short, you lose because you just didn't do a very good job. I'm a jerk here but it looked like a 1A battle with minimal micro from your part. I say, go play better.
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My only counter I would have available would be early stim/medivacs/marauders,siege tanks,extra bunkers in the nat or scouting the nydus.
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If you watched Maru vs Effort game 2 in todays Code A, you'd see the same thing.
Really hard to hold off if you go Hellion Banshee, since Zerg gets Roaches with Queen support. + Show Spoiler +
I really think the better way to hold this off would have been an infantry heavy build with a lot of bunkers. But like someone mentioned earlier in this thread, if you hold it off without losing much, you'll be miles ahead. Roach/Queen Nydus is a pretty big investment, especially if you get to kill off a couple Nydus worms.
Here's hoping that Blizz ups the price of Nydus... 100/100 is too damn cheap.
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On September 25 2012 22:48 `dunedain wrote:
Here's hoping that Blizz ups the price of Nydus... 100/100 is too damn cheap.
So the least-used Zerg structure/strategy has to be nerfed based on one or two succesful games?
Nydus strats are extreme gambles. They rely completely on remaining undetected because the worm has pathetically low HP.
Also remember that the Nydus network itself costs 200/200. So building and losing one worm already costs at least 300/300 and then you're screwed since your strat isn't working at all, your opponent is aware of your shenanigans and you're miles behind economically.
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More nydus usage the better, adds complexity, movement choices, and enjoyments of games, dont know why Z isn't using nydus wroms as soon as financialy viable
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On September 26 2012 00:45 TheLunatic wrote:
More nydus usage the better, adds complexity, movement choices, and enjoyments of games, dont know why Z isn't using nydus wroms as soon as financialy viable
Then its obvious you are not familiar with how Zerg works at a higher level. Zerg is limited mostly by gas, not by minerals. Whatever tech choice we make for tier 1.5 or 2 is a very big one and MUST deal some sort of damage either to his army when he pushes or by harassment damage (keeping him in his base + worker damage). The nydus canal is insanely expensive for what it does. Its extraordinarily easy to counter and its extremely hard to pull off effectively. Its a huge investment for Zerg and basically if he doesn't do a massive amount of damage, its auto-lose.
If anything, I'm glad to see some very "tough-to-deal-with" nydus builds emerging in the future since up until now they literally have gone unused.
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Just wondering, what's the standard terran scan timing if they see a zerg buddy staying on 2 base? I'm currently working on refining this build for myself (the liquipedia version has you taking 4 gas which you just don't need and frankly can't afford). I'm not sure if I like taking the third before the attack because you can't really afford to produce off 3 hatches anyway, so instead I drop it after making my 10 or so roaches and my 6 total queens. I can either rally more roaches to my nydus or just drone up depending on how things are going.
I've had great luck so far even without keeping my macro super tight especially when getting a nydus up in their main.
Couple of tips based on what I've learned so far:
1. Overseer @100% lair to scout terran base for suitable nydus spots/check tech. This will give away your early lair but probably not set off any alarm bells in his head to watch for a nydus. You can still do major damage with this build even against bio-based terran, many of whom go for a greedy 3rd cc/2 engi style in the current meta game that you will absolutely crush. Also note that in the linked replay in this thread, the zerg player only morphs an overseer after already taking damage from cloaked banshees, IIRC he loses a queen at least. This overseer negates cloak completely right off the bat.
2. Maneuver your overseer to drop more nydus worms (you can probably get one up in his main while at his natural with your roaches. All of a sudden his bunkers are useless. Most terran at this point in the game have the majority of their buildings either walling off their natural or near their in their main, leaving many vulnerable spots for nydus worms (either the initial one or followups). They generally don't want their tech easily scouted so they put a lot of it farther back (like hiding starports near the mineral line opposite the gas on cloud kingdom) and leave half their base empty. If they are patrolling a marine to spot OVs then in my experience that is a good indication that he's going for some cheesy tech play that you will destroy with your attack regardless of where you place your nydus.
3. Remember to wall off your own natural with good simcity and your 2 home queens and send back a roach or two if you need to deal with run-bys.
4. Don't skip ling speed like the replay because you will likely need them to deal with marauders/tanks; you can gas before pool then pull a drone @100 gas. Put him back in after you start lair. Drop 2 more gas around 6 mins or so (I'm still working out the time hacks!) and put 2 drones in each.
5. Macro behind this and deal damage or else you're screwed!
I'm still running into some points where I'm heavily mineral starved and it just doesn't "feel" quite smooth yet but I'll have it worked out in a day or two.
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I think an earlier poster really hit it on the head - this is an anti-MKP build. And since "MKP builds" have been the backbone of the terran metagame for a while, I can see this posing a lot of trouble. It works of course because you have not much that's good against roach/queen when it hits, and it sort of makes the map control/vision from hellions irrelevant by going around them entirely.
One thing is, you can stop a nydus with SCVs if you have to. If you have good vision of your front(and you did, you saw it), you could kill it and the zerg has to try again from further back or transition. You're gonna lose the SCVs in that scenario anyway, so I think it would be ok to risk them if you really had 0 units in position. Even if you let a couple units out but kill it, I think you're ahead because of the time you get. Consider this with the same urgency you'd consider a bunker/cannon rush in the early game because its essentially the same scenario: a proxy attack and you've got very few/no units.
As for scouting it, seems like the ~7:00 roach warren is the key piece of info. In your game it was part of his wall; easy to scout. Even if its not a nydus build, you'd still probably want to know roaches are coming (especially if you're going banshee/hellion). Could just as easily be roach/baneling, some sort of overlord drop build, etc.
If you only find out when the nydus pops and roaches stream out, its probably too late. This sort of build you have to scout and change your plans accordingly.
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On September 26 2012 04:38 darkscream wrote:
As for scouting it, seems like the ~7:00 roach warren is the key piece of info. In your game it was part of his wall; easy to scout. Even if its not a nydus build, you'd still probably want to know roaches are coming (especially if you're going banshee/hellion). Could just as easily be roach/baneling, some sort of overlord drop build, etc.
If you only find out when the nydus pops and roaches stream out, its probably too late. This sort of build you have to scout and change your plans accordingly.
Part of the reason this build is so deadly is that the standard MVP-style meching player's response to roaches is banshees, which normally can shut down roach/bling/ling pressure but are now useless because of the queens! Most players will think "GREAT! Free roach kills!" and then die when the queens show up.
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I'm pretty terrified of this build and I haven't even faced it yet. Seems like this counters any Mech/Fast Tech strategies terran have. Can't think of a solution other than bunkering up and taking a hard hit, and still at that point they'll be on three bases or maybe four.
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Hi guys,
I studied this build a lot, and helped writing the guide for this 2 Base Nydus Build on the Liquipedia.
While I'm not a good player by any mean, I tried to come up with a way to counter this build. Here are my thoughts and assumptions.
1°) You have been able to scout a Speedling Expand, with Drones taken off gas after 100.
2°) You went for the usual MVP Mech Build: CC First (or 1 Rax Expand) -> Reactor Hellion -> Banshee -> Third Base
3°) At 6:45, you have scouted the absence of Third base from the Zerg with your first two Hellions, and you only see one Queen at the Natural.
In my opinion, the combination of no Third + low number of Queens (i.e. less than 4) should be a tell that some kind of Tech build is up. From there, what should you do? Immediately scan the Main to confirm the Lair, and sacrifice an Hellion in the Natural to see the number of gas and a possible Roach Warren behind the mineral line.
Once you have seen the Lair and the Roach Warren, you know what is coming (7:00). At the earliest, the Nydus Worm will pop outside your Natural at 7:50 (Maru VS Effort, GSL Code A Game). You have therefore 50 seconds to:
1°) Swap the Techlab on the Barracks and start producing Marauders
2°) Produce a Viking on your naked Starport to kill the overlord that is certainly hanging above your main
3°) Make a Techlab on your Factory and start Siege Tank production ASAP.
4°) Build several bunkers in front of your natural.
Assuming you did things quickly enough, you will have bunkers at your natural, two marines, two marauders, siege tanks in production, 4 hellions, a banshee and a viking. This should be enough to deflect the push (and should not be afraid to lose SCVs since you have three Orbitals up and running).
What do you think of this reaction? Of course, this is 100% hindsight mode, but I have the feeling that this is a good way to deflect the push and still be ahead. In fact, this should be treated as a super dangerous Roach/Baneling attack: you need to see it coming and rely on good simcity/micro to defeat it.
EDIT : Liquipedia Link to MVP's Mech Guide.
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On September 26 2012 00:45 TheLunatic wrote:
More nydus usage the better, adds complexity, movement choices, and enjoyments of games, dont know why Z isn't using nydus wroms as soon as financialy viable
Extremely all in for the Zerg. If the Terran holds taking minimal loses then he is way behind. Just look at Alive vs HerO game 2 in Code A this morning.
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Ahelvin's response seems like the best one. My observations:
*The timings are very tight to infer that anything is going on. I'm in Diamond, and no third by 6:45 does not bring alarm bells in my head. I get more concerned around 7:30, and that's too late. You had better be very in tune to the timings to not get killed here.
I need to buy a GSL pass.
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On September 26 2012 00:45 TheLunatic wrote:
More nydus usage the better, adds complexity, movement choices, and enjoyments of games, dont know why Z isn't using nydus wroms as soon as financialy viable
Because in general, it's a terrible idea that will put the Zerg vastly far behind if it fails to do damage. It isn't really "financially viable" until 4 or 5 base. In any other situation, you're better off putting your gas into infestor count and hive tech.
This looks pretty interesting. Is it primarily only used on Daybreak? Or have you experienced on additional maps? Will try this out tonight.
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I watched the replay and there saw a lot of things that could be exploited against this zerg player. For the most part, you didn't scout.
Zerg had a very vulnerable 3rd base and walled with a roach warren.
The first thing I'd say, keep making marines. A quick bunker push to the 3rd base can be done off 1 barracks, at the very least you can threaten the overlord sitting over their 3rd (which this zerg didn't have). At best you force a cancel on the 3rd or a lot of non-drones produced.
Constant marine production would also have gone a long ways to defending your base. The key here is the roach warren wall. More then 3 queens and a roach warren is redundant in terms of defense for hellions. The queens will suffice and zerg is better off with another queen then the roach warren early on. More queens = more creep = more map control. Zerg may potentially go for roach warren if they suspect mass hellion (double reactor hellion+), or if they are planning some sort of offensive bust.
As you didn't show a large amount of hellions it's safe to assume a bust is coming and go up to 3 bunkers in defense. Get your 2nd armory later and go for tank production. The key factor is that you didn't have enough marines to fill bunkers. Your 1 bunker was also very poorly positioned for roaches. It should have been salvaged when you started your new wall.
In the event your wall is overrun by roaches, the proper response is not to fight on the low ground. Instead grab everything you can and get to the high ground, don't leave SCV's below. Getting past your wall before zerg can sit on it is really important. Lift your CC and anything else you can. Swap your barracks to tech lab, start marauder production and double up your wall by making barracks behind the depos. Mass repair and stall as long as possible. If you were actually able to get a tank or two out you may not need the tech lab on the barracks.
You cannot afford to lose your banshees so be very careful with them. If your hellions are still at home, you can use them with the ramp going to your natural, the choke there makes a nice funnel and hellions can actually do decent damage to roaches.
If your hellions aren't at home, your best bet is to counter attack. Roast a few drones and all you have to do is stabilize at home to take the lead. Plus it should slow the flow of reinforcements.
Edit - Ahelvin's response is the correct way to handle this build under normal circumstances.
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Looking at a modification to the hellion/banshee opening that utilises the rax to make marauders consistently whilst delaying the +1, advantages are obviously taking less damage to the now extremely common roach/ling counter timings (and coincidentally builds like this). Hoping to get a guide up in the next few days.
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EPT
