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Hi there. I'm a master terran on EU (Mid) and I just got owned by a nydus all in on Daybreak. The guy basically popped a nydus right outside my natural (still far away from SCVs and my bunker) and unloaded 4+ queens and a ton of roaches and also morphed an overseer there.
I went for reactor/hellion into mech and he saw it earlier. Hence he did this insane build. But since hellion/banshee is the most common and imo best opener in TvZ I would like some help on how to deal with this all-in that I consider the strongest all in vs reactor/hellion. My build was 12 rax, 15 gas (pretty awkward gas but it's essentialy very fast CC and average fast tech, so I like it.)
Everything looked standard, he took a 3rd but didn't get to saturate it yet, which is pretty normal. My hellions and banshees were at his tower when his nydus popped down, I did get back in fairly ''good'' time tho because I saw his nydus on minimap, but theres no units to kill what hes got.
The nydus pops up at 8:30 where I have 6 hellions, 1 banshee and 2 marines. heres the replay: http://drop.sc/256956
Thanks in advance
edit: this isn't even an all-in, is it? he got a 3rd and can drone up hard behind this. More like a strong pressure build*.
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Hello Thylacine, I'm also a Masters Terran
Generally I do a hellion run by with that build once I get my first banshee, I haven't thought of this particular situation before, but it would let me catch the lair.
If I were to spot the lair, I would probably freak out a bit and scan alot till I find out which tech tree he's going down, and eventually catch the nydus.
Then you could probably get more stuff up at home?
Its an interesting idea from the zerg, but if it fails, you instantly win the game, pretty much. thats a huge army investment for the 8:30 minute mark, and you can do counter run by's with like 3 hellions behind it.
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Okay. A runby of all hellions + banshee or just one hellion? I hate risking to lose everything and doing no damage so I generally don't wanna do any runby's. I still don't understand what I could get up at home.
It's really hard already to hold off a roach rush when you see them march from their base and appear at your natural way later, this is like a super roach rush that banshees die too aswell.
anyone else got any help?
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Well it really depends on what I see at the front, if I see a partial or complete walloff, I don't. but generally its just 4 hellions, which can almost always trade positively.
I generally try to pull his queens to his 3rd by poking it, then runby into his main pretty quickly, he generally doesn't have creep spread between them at this point.
also, there is no way he has enough gas for 1-1 ups and lair/nydus AND roaches. so if he walled with evo chambers, check to make sure they're active maybe?
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this sounds like the build curious used against mkp i think, different abit of course but the main thing is the nydus + roach +queen attack early on
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Check replay - he had a wall of roach warren and evo chamber. It was only there for walling and potential spore crawlers. He has 2 queens blocking with the roach warren + evo chamber, runby isn't possible.
Rofl.
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Frankly, its a pretty devious build, you're just going to have to outlast him. put up bunkers and such, and wait till you have alot of banshees, sniping queens as often as possible, you will have to retreat to your main, and he might even break in. you'll have to kite around a bit and just wait for your banshees to clean it all up. Maybe invest in a viking to get that overseer? although he might get spores.
I really feel like counterattacking with 2-3 hellions after the nydus comes up will be key, because he'll either loose everything or devote a few hundred resources to hold it, which is a substantial amout of his army.
Also, crisis techlab on barracks maybe?
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Was way to late to add a lab to the rax. And 1 marauder won't even make a dent in his 10 roaches. If I retreat to main he will still break in easily, and do massive damage. I can't repair efficently because my SCV's get sniped by roaches.
The queens also snipe them! And they can transfuse the roaches. Seriously fucking shit, what is this build? I'm not sure there is a way to beat it with hellion/banshee unless I roast all his drones and stuff.
If I enter his base he can just load all drones into nydus or get roaches from nydus back into his main xD
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its okay if he breaks your main, that means its either: way later, or he can't possibly have his queens with him. that means that you just have to run around a minute or two while your banshees kill everything he owns, or the techlab rax WILL have made a difference. one of the two.
Edit: Marauders in bunkers can snipe roaches sniping SCV's without allow that many roaches to snipe the bunkers right up against the wall.
aka: if your bunker is ~ 3 units away from your wall, you can always hit roaches hitting your wall while not allowing more than 1-3 roaches to hit your bunker at any point while the wall is up.
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It will take his queens like 30 seconds max to go up the ramp. He also put down a creep tumor there. My bunker was in good position for this, behind my ramp but I'm talking about if he would just kill my wall upstairs and then go in?
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I had a look at the replay, this is the 2 Base Nydus build that Curious used against MKP in GSL Code S.
I was very curious (no pun intended) on how to scout and counter this, and came to the conclusion that in case of a walled-in natural you have no choice but to scan the early lair and guess what is up... I'm not a good player by any mean, but this is what I would do in this situation.
And while this build is not really all-in, if scouted you have a good chance to come back given that you do not take too much economical damage at your natural...
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Im kinda bad so this may be really wrong:
Pokeing with your hellions to see what he got seems to be key here. His roachwarren was at his door and he had queens to be really blocking of to prevent your scouting. Also when his queens left you could have roasted alot of drones like everyone says, so you have to poke to get the oppurtunity, tho i don't know if it's worth some of the hellions life just to scout it.
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As Zerg I'm going to start using this :D mech is such a pain  .
Could you try using your starport to build a viking after your initial banshee to try and snipe overlords?
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On September 24 2012 00:17 zasta wrote:As Zerg I'm going to start using this :D mech is such a pain . Could you try using your starport to build a viking after your initial banshee to try and snipe overlords?
Good idea, but the zerg can just send a ling to his base and nydus via that
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Thank you everyone. The conclusion is that this is an extremly powerful build that isn't fully all in but does 100% more dmg then most all ins. I hate whining but that's how I feel. Hope I never face this again because frankly, I will never be able to counter this. :D
Btw the viking idea isnt a good idea since as Supert0fu said, can just send a ling (which cannot be stopped, honestly, he can just run around watch towers and stuff) and nydus that way. And also, making a viking halters my banshee production which is crucial.
Thanks for all the replies guys, appreciate it. Nothing more to discuss here.
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I copied a similar build from Curious on GSL Code S this season. Forgot which game but it was in the first group stage.
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I would like to talk about this more. This looks very hard to scout. The issue I see is that the queens don't have to walk across the map and they can deal with the banshees and the roaches can win the ground battle.
Here is what I can figure out would be indicative of the attack:
*Lots of queens but not much creep spread (presumably they would save for transfuse) - unreliable since creep spread varies so much person to person
*evo chamber not researching anything. - more often than not it will be an oversight.
*lair with no spire/infestation pit - More often than not his tier 2 tech building will be hidden
This just looks extremely hard to scout since, absent a lucky scan on the nydus it's unlikely in the present metagame. The lack of early gas or a late third makes it look very macro-y, and I'm unlikely to waste more than one scan on it.
I thought that maybe this is a coin flip type of scenario, but the OL was at the gases by about 4 minutes. If T goes double gas after FE and Z sees it with OL, I think switching into this build is very doable, so the Z can do it based on the Terran's actions and does not have to make a pre-emptive decision to do the attack.
I thought about getting cloak. I don't think it will cut it.
I thought about them maybe not researching speed and this being indicative of the attack, but I don't think it is really that useful of an idea.
I don't think a run by is even practical. The guy has 3 queens and 4 lings with an evo/roach warren wall. If he could get through, he would sacrifice the hellions for just about nothing.
I'm really at a loss for how to deal with this.
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Maybe you could switch out the tech lab on the Starport and put it on the Barracks and try to get out maruaders?
Thats really the only thing i can think of + bunker on the high ground to deal with this. Never faced/used this on ladder personlly so i dont really know
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Recently used by Curious in the GSL. This build capitalizes on terrans that go the popular FE into hellion + banshee harass. It is designed to circumnavigate the map control normally give to terran when they build hellions+banshees.
Also even if you manage to take out their anti-air, you gotta remember that roaches will just do so much damage before your banshees can kill them all.
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Mid Master T here.
Pretty tricky build to scout. At first i'd say your scouting failed as you have no idea if he's putting down an early third(small indication that he went gasless but not enough). Your first 2-4 hellions can usually confirm that and start start poking at it and i figure you'd be wondering "Why is he building roaches that he's rallying to his natural and not saving my third?"
Should he start attacking your roaches his allin is either going to be delayed or he's going to lose his third.
This should either prompt you to assume a roach/ling allin and maybe even banelings and perhaps promote you to either scan or fly in with your banshee to confirm what he's actually doing.
As for defending the build itself i can't respond as i don't use mech.
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EPT
