|
Having been browsing the strategy forum recently it’s plain to see that people feel Mech isn’t viable on all maps or is gimmicky in the vZ match up. These people are probably failing to consider Mech’s inherent strengths and are failing to play to them.
What’s Wrong With Mech?
Slow, Immobile, poor Anti-Air, reliant on playing perfectly and susceptible to early cheese are common responses to this question. I’ll deal with these complaints and hopefully explain how they can be overcome or used as an asset.
The early game can be an issue for some. A Terran player has two initial openings one is to go for a 2 factory play with reactored BF Hellions. Upon discovering a Roach/BLing all in you start siege tech early and be prepared to have to lift your natural. The BF hellions should be followed up with a SP, aiming to medivac drop 4 hellions (with 4 pressuring the front) at 8:30 to 9:00 minutes; this is the stage when Zerg starts to focus on army and stops droning, delaying this ‘phase’ is vital for any Mech player. Remember that Starport I mentioned earlier? Yeah, stick a Tech lab on it. I’ll go over the importance of Banshee’s later. Another, more popular, method is to 1-1-1 into expand and pressure, poke and prod with Banshee Hellion, allowing you to deny creep, threaten expos, and waste resources on static defences. The importance of this (both BFH drop and B/H is not restricted to killing drones, but threatening to kill drones; this alone will waste resources, apm and force army production).
The Terran player on two bases should have 1 Rax, 3 Factories, 1 Starport (4 gas ofc). The third base is of course crucial to Mech and the timing of what comes next is highly dependent upon what you see next. If the Zerg player takes no gas and a quick third(no macro hatch), get double armoury and build your third at your third with 5 and 6 gas taken instantly. Any gas play and you should build the third at home and perhaps look at delaying the armouries until your expo is up.
When your third base is taken you should be putting down factory 4 and 5. This is Mech’s Mid game, a crucial mistake of many players is to assume that Mech players mid game starts at the same time as others... It’s doesn’t. It’s significantly delayed and for a good reason.
The fundamental mistake people make with Mech is to play as the aggressor at a sub 200/200 army; attacking head on without pre-planned positioning, and a superior army composition which can have devastating effects. Terran players should be harassing multiple bases and denying creep spread with BF Hellions, pulling the zerg about and delaying their econ which of course will delay army and Tech. At around the completion of 2-2 is when a Mech player should reach 200/200 and it’s in this state that Mech reach’s it’s most powerful stage. The efficiency of Thor’s with 2-2 is staggering and should not be underestimated. Here is where a Mech player should start to assert a dominance on the map, securing a 4th and pushing the Zerg.
Poor Anti-Air and Mineral saturation are two issues which seem to be the downfall of the Mech Terran player who attempts to turtle. Turrets. Before the Terran player reaches that 200/200 Thor Heavy army, they’re turtling and susceptible to Muta harass or even magic boxing straight over the Thor’s. The Terran player should be investing their excess minerals in Turrets and Hellions. The Hellions are initially a way of securing map control but in the mid game and late game are there for harass. Lose 10 hellions? Build 10 more.
Late Game
Another incorrect perception of Mech is that the 200/200 Thor Banshee army is late game. It isn’t. In truth, Mech is one big stalling game. It handles Late game Zerg armies with incredible efficiency but it’s that next phase which is perhaps the scariest. Watching Thorzain and Kas play this phase is truly great, the Zerg player NEVER beats them unless they (T and K) mess up. It’s that BC, Viking, Banshee, Thor, Raven mix and ultimately Thor, BC, Raven mix which crushes opponents.
Your Mid game should typically involve securing a 4th and 5th and transitioning into a high Orbital, low SCV Late game to set up and pay for this BC transition.
Responses:
Ultras - efficiently handled by Thors and no answer to the BC.
BL - Thor’s may struggle but the BC and raven with HSM will deal the damage here.
Infestors - Infestors would need to NP just about the whole army but being out ranged and being slow this isn’t an answer to the BC, Thor, Raven mix.
Mass Ling - they’re going to have to engage you sometime and they’re going to lose. You should have PF by this point with defensive tanks sprinkled about, if you still have Hellions, even better.
In the end you can simply outlast the zerg army who will throw wave after wave of inefficient units at you, eventually mining himself out if you haven’t won by this stage already.
The Banshee, the Tank and what to do if you lose a battle.
The Banshee is in this mix because it forces unfavourable unit compositions for the Zerg. Some mid game responses to a Mech player include simply taking a lot of bases, Banshee’s are surprisingly effective when in 5+ packs at taking out Hatcheries quickly. Just the presence of Banshee’s will result in minerals being spent on spores, tech changes to counter them and a fear of moving out onto the map. All things which play into a Mech players hands. MVP at IEM was the first to grab people’s attention with this composition, but certainly not the first to do it. Late game the Banshee should be traded for the more durable BC.
The Tank is a unit which Is completely opposed to the real life tank; it excels in defensive of positions but sucks in attack... The complete opposite of a tanks intended purpose! But still it is horrendously good at defending locations in SC2. In the early game your army should comprise of Tanks and Hellions. The Tanks will rarely be used offensively and should be used to secure your bases. Throughout the game this is really their only purpose. 6 tanks will suffice to defend 3 bases and when you reach that 3rd base Thors should start making up the bulk of your army, they aren’t so easy to catch unawares and aren’t useless the second Zerglings reach them.
If you lose a chunk of your army but trade relatively well, don't panic. You should still have tanks back home and a never ending supply of Hellions. Just turtle up! It’s incredibly tough to break down a defensive Terran and you should be capable of remaxing, just position yourself carefully and continue to harass with Banshee/Hellion.
Roach Drops can be devastating if left un-scouted and you're unprepared. Smelling this kind play out with hellions is tricky but if scouted, be prepared to pull SCV's to repair and if you have enough time, start viking production. Thor's will of course struggle against this kind of play so it's important, as always with Mech, to have a good composition.
Streams and Replays
Thorzain is the best stream to watch for that late game composition. deMuslims is usually good for Mech.
In truth Mech doesn’t work on a BO and it’s more the Mechanics and the themes (turtling, playing safe, composition) which matter and so streams are a better source of information than replays. A Discussion of which can be found here
Thorzain: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Thorzain <- Better for End Game than true Mech
DeMusliM: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/DeMusliM
MKP vs Curious G1(need GSL access): http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70581/?set=4
IEM Cologne: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201724/ <- Every game, not just TvZ. MVP vs Vortix on Ohana (SF). Supernova vs Vortix on Daybreak(group stage).
Day9 Daily #490: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/meching-in-tvz/
EDIT: Sorry mod I copy and pasted this and forgot a [G][D] tag and it's missing TvZ off the end, could you add these please? :3
EDIT2: A quote from Thorzain on his stream today 'I guess it's no Mech no win' after losing to Dimaga.
EDIT3: Attempted to address some issues flagged up.
|
Didnt you post this before and it was moved to blogs?
|
On September 07 2012 22:33 dynwar7 wrote:
Didnt you post this before and it was moved to blogs?
No
|
I always go for tank heavy mech with few thors and decent number of Hellions before BL or Ultra come out. I will only transition to Thor heavy when my push doesn't kill my opponent to prepare for late game.
|
On September 07 2012 22:52 Wildmoon wrote:
I always go for tank heavy mech with few thors and decent number of Hellions before BL or Ultra come out. I will only transition to Thor heavy when my push doesn't kill my opponent to prepare for late game.
I always feel Tank heavy compositions are map dependent, Maps with multiple attack routes make this playstyle much harder to make viable.Being caught sieged up out of position once can be devastating.
|
I can only agree with how hard it is to break a turtling terran before broodlords. Nice short consistent and yet still complete guide.
|
Nice, though I think you should note how good Hellions are. If you go up against a player who's going Roaches, you use them to buffer and for a little more damage in direct engagements early on, for harassment to keep the Zerg split up, and running around the map to have as much vision and map control as possible.
Edit: I missed that you wrote that already.
Edit 2: I do think that Thors are stronger against BL's than you give them credit for. It's only when the Zerg has around 15-20 or so BL's(enough to 1-shot Thors) that Thors become ineffective, since Hellions roast away all the Broodlings, and a few (3-6) Siege Tanks kill/do terrible terrible damage to Infestors and Roaches.
|
On September 08 2012 01:12 Fencar wrote:
Nice, though I think you should note how good Hellions are. If you go up against a player who's going Roaches, you use them to buffer and for a little more damage in direct engagements early on, for harassment to keep the Zerg split up, and running around the map to have as much vision and map control as possible.
Edit: I missed that you wrote that already.
Edit 2: I do think that Thors are stronger against BL's than you give them credit for. It's only when the Zerg has around 15-20 or so BL's(enough to 1-shot Thors) that Thors become ineffective, since Hellions roast away all the Broodlings, and a few (3-6) Siege Tanks kill/do terrible terrible damage to Infestors and Roaches.
Whilst I agree that Thor's are effective in most situations, when a Zerg gets that critical mass so that your Thors can't move in range, the BC and Raven are definitely favourable as they're straight up hard counters, their presence will often deter a BL tech switch at all, making it a moot point!
|
On September 08 2012 01:35 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 01:12 Fencar wrote:
Nice, though I think you should note how good Hellions are. If you go up against a player who's going Roaches, you use them to buffer and for a little more damage in direct engagements early on, for harassment to keep the Zerg split up, and running around the map to have as much vision and map control as possible.
Edit: I missed that you wrote that already.
Edit 2: I do think that Thors are stronger against BL's than you give them credit for. It's only when the Zerg has around 15-20 or so BL's(enough to 1-shot Thors) that Thors become ineffective, since Hellions roast away all the Broodlings, and a few (3-6) Siege Tanks kill/do terrible terrible damage to Infestors and Roaches. Whilst I agree that Thor's are effective in most situations, when a Zerg gets that critical mass so that your Thors can't move in range, the BC and Raven are definitely favourable as they're straight up hard counters, their presence will often deter a BL tech switch at all, making it a moot point! I think, like my above post, you missed the part where I talk about what you're talking about.
It's only when the Zerg has around 15-20 or so BL's(enough to 1-shot Thors) that Thors become ineffective
Edit: Otherwise I agree!
|
most good mech builds will give you 3-3 before broolords pop, 3-3 Thors beat equal numbers of unupgraded broodlords the broods do next to no damage especially with hellions. i find ultras to be more annoying.
|
On September 08 2012 02:35 Pookie Monster wrote:
most good mech builds will give you 3-3 before broolords pop, 3-3 Thors beat equal numbers of unupgraded broodlords the broods do next to no damage especially with hellions. i find ultras to be more annoying.
I agree Ultra's speed can make them more frustrating but it's very easily manageable by an equal supply of Thor/Banshee or BC.
There's no alteration for BC/Ultra which is possibly the best part of a Mech Army.
|
Please do you have some replays of demuslim and thorzain? Because know they are playing hots... :/
|
On September 08 2012 02:54 Skyblueone wrote:
Please do you have some replays of demuslim and thorzain? Because know they are playing hots... :/
Well I disagree with a need for a replay, if you want to see the strength of BC end game: 1:03 in
That was the first game I could find and isn't Mech really, so I'm loathe to reference it in my post, I haven't got one off of the top of my head other than MKP vs Curious game 1 in the GSL.
|
On September 08 2012 02:54 Skyblueone wrote:
Please do you have some replays of demuslim and thorzain? Because know they are playing hots... :/
Thorzain just played Dimaga, he barely used any warhounds/widow mines compared to the amount of tank + hellion + banshee + viking + BC + raven + thor composition, while Dimaga used a pretty heavy roach queen composition.
I think the fact they are playing HOTS is negligible.
Dimaga was complaining near the end about ravens being too strong, but Im not sure why he didnt try the new hydras, although I must say his gas was horrendous....shouldve borrowed some from thorzain judging from the amount of late game high tech units thorzain had lol.
|
United States2186 Posts
I don't want to sound too harsh but a lot of this is pretty questionable and seems to assume that the Zerg is incompetent. Ultimately the question you have to answer with mech is: if my opponent plays it near perfectly can I still win? This is because mech puts almost no real pressure on the Zerg the entire game and lets them spread creep/drone/expand to their hearts content while only having to worry about hellions. With bio you can actively force the Zerg to play worse; with mech you cannot. As Terran I've lost repeatedly to much worse Zergs going mech, Zergs who I easily will eviscerate with bio. Playing as Zerg, the reverse is also true. It's pathetically easy to beat good Terrans who go mech, when I can't even take games off them when they go bio. Thus in general, from my experience at least, the only hope of your winning relies on them being incompetent strategically and not prepared to face mech. Fortunately, most Zergs fall into that (like everyone MVP played at IEM sans Violet), but that is obviously not reliable 
As someone who has used both extensively, the 2 fact blue flame build is a lot more one dimensional than the hellion/banshee 3 cc build. For one, your third cc comes a lot later, which puts you way behind unless you do extensive damage (which should not happen as Zerg scouts it, starts roaches, and walls the natural). I've had games where I've been way behind even though I kill two dozen drones in that window just because having a fast third is that important. If your third is later than 10-11 minutes and the Zerg goes standard 3rd timing (5-630 ish) and drones properly, you're already incredibly far behind. If you go 2 fact blue flame it's very possible for the Zerg to delay the landing of your 3rd cc for minutes with roaches unless you can do huge amounts of damage early, which is not a bet you want to take.
Secondly, hellion/banshee is a lot trickier to defend against than just mass hellions and gives you the potential to get large early leads if they mess up slightly. It also restricts creep a lot better, as hellions simply cannot handle roaches at all. Lastly, 2 fact has severe issues with early roach timings that players such as Violet like to do. Siege mode, even blindly started, comes way too late for the really fast ones, leaving you with just hellions to handle 10 roaches. TvZ is hard enough without getting blind coinflipped to death.
-Attack is a lot more important than armor for mech. You want that +1 attack started asap. The 9 min double armory that is pretty common is way too late, as it means you'll only be +2 attack instead of +3 for your big timing. +1 attack is also crucial in letting your hellions start 1 shotting drones.
-Thors are really bad against everything but mutas. MVP's mech difference is being tank heavy, even against broods.The fact that tanks suck if they are not properly set up is irrelevant because TvZ, bio or mech, is entirely about getting perfect engagements as otherwise you can't win. Roaches trade way too well vs thors and thors also can't handle infestors whatsoever. Even when MVP sees broods he still keeps making more tanks.
They are also garbage against broods once the broods reach critical mass (11-12+) unless the Zerg player is horrible and stacks their broods like Nestea did against Demuslim on that Shakuras game from Arena, or never gets upgrades. As the Zerg should never be attacking before they get critical mass and it's actually really hard to attack them even when they have a sub-mass of broods, you shouldn't really be bothering with thors unless you think they will overmake corruptors and you pray they attack prematurely. Furthermore, thors also damage broods too slowly compared to marines and thus make it very easy to just perma transfuse them. If the Zerg is not walking around with 8-12 queens with their brood army they're misplaying it. These queens make it almost impossible to engage with a ground army anymore, and it's not like you can use the immobility against him going mech.
If you lose a battle as Mech don’t panic, don’t worry! You should still have tanks back home and a never ending supply of Hellions. Just turtle up! It’s incredibly tough to break down a defensive Terran and you should be capable of remaxing, just position yourself carefully and continue to harass with Banshee/Hellion.
Sadly in my experience if you lose a battle you pretty much lost the game right there unless your harass somehow gave you a monster lead. If it's an even position and you lose then it's pretty much game over unless you can somehow bait them into overcommitting before they reach critical mass broods. You just can't beat a critical mass of brood/corruptor/infestor/queen without BC/raven, as they just neural a bunch of thors, fungal the vikings, and throw mass infested terrans while transfusing. Even if you can kill all their corruptors somehow (i,e the Zerg bunches them up and doesn't transfuse) your vikings will have to retreat from infested terrans/fungal. If there actually is an example of a Terran beating a proper (keyword) Zerg army I would love to see it, cause in my experience on both t/z for this it just doesn't happen.
BC/Raven is obviously awesome and beats anything the Zerg throws at it but the only maps where you can reliably get this before they just 1a you with a super hive army are Atlantis and Metropolis. Otherwise you're liable to just die when you're investing thousands of gas into an army that takes 10 minutes to get ready.
|
I'll deal with what I can in this post, perhaps I mis explained some things etc
On September 08 2012 03:17 Ver wrote:
I don't want to sound too harsh but a lot of this is pretty questionable and seems to assume that the Zerg is incompetent. Ultimately the question you have to answer with mech is: if my opponent plays it near perfectly can I still win? This is because mech puts almost no real pressure on the Zerg the entire game and lets them spread creep/drone/expand to their hearts content while only having to worry about hellions. With bio you can actively force the Zerg to play worse; with mech you cannot.
I'd disagree that if you played perfectly you could lose with a Mech composition. The point made here about being limited to Hellion harass disregards the fact that Banshees are an integral part of any Mech composition. With regards to Bio being better at forcing a zerg to play worse, I again disagree, Multiple and simultaneous Hellion drops have the same effect of bio drops and with the added Banshee support are perhaps even more deadly.
As someone who has used both extensively, the 2 fact blue flame build is a lot more one dimensional than the hellion/banshee 3 cc build. For one, your third cc comes a lot later, which puts you way behind unless you do extensive damage (which should not happen as Zerg scouts it, starts roaches, and walls the natural). I've had games where I've been way behind even though I kill two dozen drones in that window just because having a fast third is that important. If your third is later than 10-11 minutes and the Zerg goes standard 3rd timing (5-630 ish) and drones properly, you're already incredibly far behind. If you go 2 fact blue flame it's very possible for the Zerg to delay the landing of your 3rd cc for minutes with roaches unless you can do huge amounts of damage early, which is not a bet you want to take.
I was just suggesting the BF Hellion opening, I wasn't committing Mech to this build. The Banshee's come straight after the Hellions so it can be seen as a matter of preference. However MVP definitely highlighted how great Hellion/Banshee can be.
Lastly, 2 fact has severe issues with early roach timings that players such as Violet like to do. Siege mode, even blindly started, comes way too late for the really fast ones, leaving you with just hellions to handle 10 roaches. TvZ is hard enough without getting blind coinflipped to death.
All builds have timing holes and again, I'm not committing Mech to this build, merely it was the one I happened to use; many builds lead to Mech as you know!
-Attack is a lot more important than armor for mech. You want that +1 attack started asap. The 9 min double armory that is pretty common is way too late, as it means you'll only be +2 attack instead of +3 for your big timing. +1 attack is also crucial in letting your hellions start 1 shotting drones.
I've personally, as have many, found the efficiency of +1 armour better considering that Hellion harass should continue throughout the game; it's not the same situation as +1 attack Bio being more effective than +1 armour. This is thinking of the long term and not the momentary gain of faster drone kills.
-Thors are really bad against everything but mutas. MVP's mech difference is being tank heavy, even against broods.The fact that tanks suck if they are not properly set up is irrelevant because TvZ, bio or mech, is entirely about getting perfect engagements as otherwise you can't win. Roaches trade way too well vs thors and thors also can't handle infestors whatsoever. Even when MVP sees broods he still keeps making more tanks.
Got to disagree with this, in regards to the Thor's sucking: a Thor/Banshee army upgraded at 2-2 is very effective against a Roach Army and in defensive positions with Tanks in support is extremely effective at being efficient against this composition.
They are also garbage against broods once the broods reach critical mass (11-12+) unless the Zerg player is horrible and stacks their broods like Nestea did against Demuslim on that Shakuras game from Arena, or never gets upgrades.
I agreed with this point in OP and that's why I was saying that Mech was really stalling for a composition including BC and Raven.
Show nested quote +If you lose a battle as Mech don’t panic, don’t worry! You should still have tanks back home and a never ending supply of Hellions. Just turtle up! It’s incredibly tough to break down a defensive Terran and you should be capable of remaxing, just position yourself carefully and continue to harass with Banshee/Hellion. Sadly in my experience if you lose a battle you pretty much lost the game right there unless your harass somehow gave you a monster lead. If it's an even position and you lose then it's pretty much game over unless you can somehow bait them into overcommitting before they reach critical mass broods. You just can't beat a critical mass of brood/corruptor/infestor/queen without BC/raven, as they just neural a bunch of thors, fungal the vikings, and throw mass infested terrans while transfusing. Even if you can kill all their corruptors somehow (i,e the Zerg bunches them up and doesn't transfuse) your vikings will have to retreat from infested terrans/fungal. If there actually is an example of a Terran beating a proper (keyword) Zerg army I would love to see it, cause in my experience on both t/z for this it just doesn't happen.
Again I explained in the OP that BC Raven was needed. If you get rolled in the fight you will of course lose the game, but that doesn't happen without massive fuck ups.
Hope this was as coherent as it sounded in my head.
|
Mid-GM Terran on Europe here. Don't want to sound rude but, like Ver, I'm quite puzzled by many statements you made in your text. Could you please say your league? The way you talk about mech sounds very “theorycrafty” and doesn't fit my experience, but it could easily be explained if you play at a lower level / face Zergs who don't know how to handle mech.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The early game can be an issue for some. A Terran player should initially go for a 2 factory play with reactored BF Hellions.
Why do you say “should”? This is merely a possibility, and not a very good one. All it takes is an Overlord sacrifice (which is standard play) to completely foil the initial BFH attack; Zerg will wall-off his natural, make a Roach Warren and retain a decisive advantage. An important part about the Hellion/Banshee opening is that you can often deny scouting until he gets an Overseer (since both Marines/Tanks and mech look the same way when he sacrifices his Overlord as you didn't yet make your additional production facilities), which is huge because the earlier he knows you go mech, the worse it is for you. Hellion/Banshee is vastly superior if you plan to go mech.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
Upon discovering a Roach/BLing all in you should be insta-winning. Start siege tech early and laugh your way to victory.
Except Siege Tech takes 80 seconds to complete and you will still have only one Tank when he hits if you started Tanks upon seeing his Roaches pushing on the map. It's far from being the easy situation you describe, your Tank will have to Siege in your main base which means on some maps he can still force an OC lift while building 10+ Drones at home, and since you don't have Banshees ready to deny his third he's free to take it. Definitely not a “easy win” situation.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The BF hellions should be followed up with a SP, aiming to medivac drop 4 hellions (with 4 pressuring the front) at 8:30 to 9:00 minutes
Any decent Zerg spreads Overlords around his main and natural will be walled off. You shouldn't expect many Drone kills from a BFH drop.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The fundamental mistake people make with Mech is to play as the aggressor at a sub 200/200 army; attacking head on at any earlier point is wrong and will result in a crushing defeat.
This dogmatic statement makes little sense; on the contrary, whenever you have the advantage or sense a weakness you should attack, because waiting those additionals minuts to be max means BLs will welcome you. If you always religiously wait 200/200, BLs will always be ready when you come, and your first 200/200 army usually cannot deal very well with it.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
Terran players should be harassing multiple bases and denying creep spread with BF Hellions
Sorry but denying creep spread with BFH? Really? You can't deny creep spread well with BFH. They kill Tumors way too slowly and are easily fended off by some Roaches.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
Ultras - efficiently handled by Thors and no answer to the BC.
Sorry but Ultras + Neural Parasite just owns Thors. To deal with Ultralisks you can't just say “build Thors”. You want Tanks as well.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
BL - Thor’s may struggle but the BC and raven with HSM will deal the damage here.
BCs are nearly impossible to get on some maps, Ravens take a lot of time to get HSM... Again, you can't just say “build BCs and Ravens”. Everyone knows BCs/Ravens/Vikings is Terran's dream composition, the problem is to get there.
On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
If you lose a battle as Mech don’t panic, don’t worry! You should still have tanks back home and a never ending supply of Hellions. Just turtle up!
Sorry but this kind of thing really tells me you have no first-person experience about a high level mech TvZ. If you lose a battle with massive supply involved you lose the game most of the time. You just can't leave X supply of Tanks behind and expect to win said battle anyway. Hellions don't replenish that fast, 4 Hellions per minut per Reactor Factory is ridiculous compared with Zerg production (Zerg can get 40 Roaches before you have a single Tank out after the battle...), and they don't provide any defence when you lost everything else.
You don't speak one word about Roaches drops. How can you pretend to write a guide about mech TvZ (especially Thor-heavy) without mentioning Roaches drops even once?
|
On September 08 2012 05:05 TheDwf wrote:
Mid-GM Terran on Europe here. Don't want to sound rude but, like Ver, I'm quite puzzled by many statements you made in your text. Could you please say your league? The way you talk about mech sounds very “theorycrafty” and doesn't fit my experience, but it could easily be explained if you play at a lower level / face Zergs who don't know how to handle mech.
I'm Diamond, and maybe it does involve theory crafting but it's theory crafting based upon what I've experienced as well as watching Pro's, mostly korean, perform Mech
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The early game can be an issue for some. A Terran player should initially go for a 2 factory play with reactored BF Hellions. Why do you say “should”? This is merely a possibility, and not a very good one. All it takes is an Overlord sacrifice (which is standard play) to completely foil the initial BFH attack; Zerg will wall-off his natural, make a Roach Warren and retain a decisive advantage. An important part about the Hellion/Banshee opening is that you can often deny scouting until he gets an Overseer (since both Marines/Tanks and mech look the same way when he sacrifices his Overlord as you didn't yet make your additional production facilities), which is huge because the earlier he knows you go mech, the worse it is for you. Hellion/Banshee is vastly superior if you plan to go mech.
Sorry the "should", it shouldn't be there, I'll amend that.
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
Upon discovering a Roach/BLing all in you should be insta-winning. Start siege tech early and laugh your way to victory. Except Siege Tech takes 80 seconds to complete and you will still have only one Tank when he hits if you started Tanks upon seeing his Roaches pushing on the map. It's far from being the easy situation you describe, your Tank will have to Siege in your main base which means on some maps he can still force an OC lift while building 10+ Drones at home, and since you don't have Banshees ready to deny his third he's free to take it. Definitely not a “easy win” situation.
Well yes you're right and to hold you do need to maintain the high ground of your main/respond correctly. Perhaps easy wasn't right but if scouted correctly, when you're used to holding these kind of situations it becomes a relatively straightforward ordeal. I'll amend that section as well
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The BF hellions should be followed up with a SP, aiming to medivac drop 4 hellions (with 4 pressuring the front) at 8:30 to 9:00 minutes Any decent Zerg spreads Overlords around his main and natural will be walled off. You shouldn't expect many Drone kills from a BFH drop.
I've never suggested the drop is designed to kill a zerg but the threat of a drop coupled with the potential of a successful one is a good enough reason to posture for one. If your build relies on doing significant early game damage then it's not necessarily good for ladder.
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
The fundamental mistake people make with Mech is to play as the aggressor at a sub 200/200 army; attacking head on at any earlier point is wrong and will result in a crushing defeat. This dogmatic statement makes little sense; on the contrary, whenever you have the advantage or sense a weakness you should attack, because waiting those additionals minuts to be max means BLs will welcome you. If you always religiously wait 200/200, BLs will always be ready when you come, and your first 200/200 army usually cannot deal very well with it.
Of course if you have an advantage you should push it, however, if the Zerg isn't pushing the issue, it's a dangerous thing to be half way across the map.
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
Ultras - efficiently handled by Thors and no answer to the BC. Sorry but Ultras + Neural Parasite just owns Thors. To deal with Ultralisks you can't just say “build Thors”. You want Tanks as well.
NP can be devastating but I was talking about Ultras alone. If we include the other units a player should have in their combination then Banshee's, ravens and later, BC's are all effective at taking out the Infestors.
Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:32 DKR wrote:
If you lose a battle as Mech don’t panic, don’t worry! You should still have tanks back home and a never ending supply of Hellions. Just turtle up! Sorry but this kind of thing really tells me you have no first-person experience about a high level mech TvZ. If you lose a battle with massive supply involved you lose the game most of the time. You just can't leave X supply of Tanks behind and expect to win said battle anyway. Hellions don't replenish that fast, 4 Hellions per minut per Reactor Factory is ridiculous compared with Zerg production (Zerg can get 40 Roaches before you have a single Tank out after the battle...), and they don't provide any defence when you lost everything else.
I wasn't suggesting for a second that if you're rolled over that you will have a chance, it was more too do with trading armies/ coming off slightly worse.
You don't speak one word about Roaches drops. How can you pretend to write a guide about mech TvZ (especially Thor-heavy) without mentioning Roaches drops even once?
Because it's something I forgot.
This is my first post and some of my wording has been poor or I've neglected certain aspects, I'll certainly try and fix the issues found with it. Feedback is of course necessary and I take it on board gladly.
|
My main problem, and Im sure many terrans problem with Mech in TvZ, is that not only is its awkward to use, and requires a gentle pick of specialized units with completely different micro from marine tank or bio, it is also because how the mindset is completely the opposite for anything we have done as Terran.
Bio play / bio tank has always been the most standard build in any match up, and the core fundamentals of bio-centric play is the constant harrass and drops coupling with good micro + macro. It was about trading well and efficiently, and dominating the battle field with pockets of mmm or mmt everywhere, and keeping up the aggression.
Not so for mech, in fact, its the exact opposite. Meching requires you to play super passive, reacting to what the opponent is doing, rather than dictating and forcing the opponent to react to your play. It requires you to baby sit the army until its maxed out, and constantly defend against opponents attack.
In fact, if the spectators didnt know better, a TvZ mech play would look as if the zerg is winning the entire game, and the terran is simply holding on for dear life, as zerg approaches 5-8 base situation while the terran is still on 4, and the swarm just coming from every side.....and then the doom push comes and everyone is wtfing.
Its not about playing mech as terran, its about mech being a completely different race, played completely differently, and many people cant handle learning a new race all over again when they are having a good going with terran bio-centric plays.
|
On September 08 2012 03:17 Ver wrote:
With bio you can actively force the Zerg to play worse; with mech you cannot. As Terran I've lost repeatedly to much worse Zergs going mech, Zergs who I easily will eviscerate with bio. Playing as Zerg, the reverse is also true. It's pathetically easy to beat good Terrans who go mech, when I can't even take games off them when they go bio. Thus in general, from my experience at least, the only hope of your winning relies on them being incompetent strategically and not prepared to face mech.
-Thors are really bad against everything but mutas. MVP's mech difference is being tank heavy, even against broods.The fact that tanks suck if they are not properly set up is irrelevant because TvZ, bio or mech, is entirely about getting perfect engagements as otherwise you can't win. Roaches trade way too well vs thors and thors also can't handle infestors whatsoever. Even when MVP sees broods he still keeps making more tanks.
They are also garbage against broods once the broods reach critical mass (11-12+) unless the Zerg player is horrible and stacks their broods like Nestea did against Demuslim on that Shakuras game from Arena, or never gets upgrades. As the Zerg should never be attacking before they get critical mass and it's actually really hard to attack them even when they have a sub-mass of broods, you shouldn't really be bothering with thors unless you think they will overmake corruptors and you pray they attack prematurely. Furthermore, thors also damage broods too slowly compared to marines and thus make it very easy to just perma transfuse them. If the Zerg is not walking around with 8-12 queens with their brood army they're misplaying it. These queens make it almost impossible to engage with a ground army anymore, and it's not like you can use the immobility against him going mech.
I am quite aware that you are more skilled that I at SC2 in general, but here's my take on this. You say it's easy to beat meching Terrans, but I fail to see what makes it "easy." While it's true that mech is a style that finds it hard to make the Zerg play worse, it's also a style that doesn't need to. Assuming the Terran opens 3 oc hellion banshee, there is nothing the Zerg can do to stop it - they have to play the game out (or risk throwing it away in an all-in).
Thors are wonderful - I don't know how anyone can disagree. Granted, pure thor can get destroyed by roaches. But pure MECH is terrible. Just like no one goes "pure bio" (even tankless bio players ALWAYS use medivacs to support them) no one goes "pure mech" with great success. It's all about how you complement your core. Thors can take a lot of damage, prevent mutas from sweeping over, and let the hellions and banshees mete out the pain. I have won many games playing horribly with mech and still crushing Zergs (several of whom went roaches). Essentially, if the Zerg player goes pure roach to 200u, then you turtle till you get 4-6 siege tanks with mode and then move out with a raven, thors hellions and banshees. You don't even need to pre-siege to fight the roaches, you just need to prevent a flank on your tanks (hellions ftw!)
Also, strange as it may seem, hellions are great vs mass roaches... when the roaches are target-firing thors hellions actually do massive aoe.
Thors don't kill brood lords fast, but brood lords don't kill Thors fast, not if hellions are burning them. Unless you get your whole army carpet-fungaled (which ggs every single composition given enough infestors/energy) you can easily handle brood lords while you get your sky counter going. Cloakshees are great at forcing infestors to use energy, and they're great vs almost everything else the Zerg will use. Thors will tank damage, and they take up a ton of space making splash damage and surrounds less effective. They can live long enough to fight stuff in the sky. Using mech, you only want to use siege tanks when nearing max supply and the zerg is maxing on roaches. When I move up in the ladder, I will get back to this forum and re-post my thoughts on this matter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
