Hi im a top4 master protoss and My winrate over my last 40games has been really high and I recently have really tightened up my drop defense against terran and ive really figured out how to react to zergs reactions to 2gate and i feel 2gate is strong PvZ as i usually am always economically even with the zerg so recently my PvZ and PvT have gotten way better so I dunno when I will hit another wall but I should be getting matched against GM's soon (hopefully) Ill post replays of that when that happens.
Now onto 2gate against zerg. I didnt know if it would be viable, i wanted to do something like a 2rax bunker rush so i thought of possibilities and i tried this a bit and I saw that dayum im always expanding fast while the zerg is stuck to figuring out how to punish me.
The build: 9pylon (at natural ramp) 2chronoboosts 14gate (this probe makes next 4 buildings) 15pylon 16gate (scout after) 1chrono on nexus Keep making probes to 21 Zealots/pylon when gateways are done. Chronos on first zealots Expand at 31food. Pylon after then keep chrono'ing zealots and probes and i normally get a forge/gas asap.
The build is all reactionary. Scout asap if the zerg is getting a third hatchery and apply heavy pressure if he is. Keep 1 zealot blocking your choke unless your sure you can send it out.
If the zerg got a spine crawler (his best reaction) send out your choking zealot and park 6zealots outside his base while constantly rally'ing new zealots outside his base. Just to deny third and scout when roaches are coming and only make the cannons once you see roaches leaving his base. After 10zealots are outside his base rally new ones to your wall and make 2cannons at natural choke.
If zerg got no spine but plenty lings to repell your attack, get no cannons and rally as much zealots as you can to his natural (and send out choking zealot once 4 reach his base and see no incoming lings). Run in and try to fight with the 4 zealots while backkiting from the queens (just to force lings). Keep doing this and fight if you feel the zerg didnt make enough lings. NEVER fight if you see 2queens+handful of lings. Keep increasing your zealot presence outside his natural. Chances are the zerg will swarm your zealots with lings to clear you out. Once your presence outside the zergs natural is defeated, make 2cannons, more zealots, and make sure your scouting probe was always hidden and scout for the zergs third 40seconds after your presence was defeated. Third cannon if theres no third. Do not make cannons until your zealot presence outside the zergs base either scouts roaches coming, or is defeated by mass lings.
If the zerg has no natural hatchery run into his base with probe to see whats going on. Make cannons if its clear roachrush.
While doing this zealot presence/pressure, you are constantly pumping zealots/probes and working towards triple stargate. Normally i get 2gasses then 4 once the second stargate is dropped.
If the zerg has no third and went the spine route and has a low ling count, get a pheonix first to scout. If the ling count is high voidray first. If his lingcount is low attack with your zealots to hopefully force lings and slow down his muta rush. If you ever scout roaches, run away +cannons.
With the 3stargates, pump voidrays/zealots and pressure his third/main/force spines. Always attack with the voidrays through the middle of the map so you scout incoming roachling attacks. Always expand once the 3stargates are done and prepare to cannon it up slowly. If you scout hydras slowly work up to 7cannons at your third and natural chokes while making voidrays/zealots. Hydras when attacking into the cannon choke are in trouble. If your fighting hydras get a fleet beacon +air upgrades while working towards voidray/collossi.. You should always upgrade air attack +1 around the time your 2nd/third stargate is done. Normally against hydras you will want to get a third gateway eventually for more zealots normally at the time your 7cannons are done in your third choke/natural choke
If scouting mass lings and no mutas, get to collossus asap. Actually the timing for collossi is normally always the same. Once my thirds gasses are up is the timing I throw down a fourth stargate and a robo working towards more voidray/collossi. Get a fleet beacon too if hydras are scouted for +air damage upgrades (dont get armor, just get +damage then work on armor after you have +3 attack)
If theres any mutas at all pump pheonix. Pheonix counter mutas but never get more than like 10 pheonix (unless you scout 20+ muta). If its mass muta get pheonix range and air upgrades and some collossi. 10pheonix to deal with muta then attack with 200food of zealot/collossi/voidray. Keep 1collossi behind your natural choke (with it blocked) and get up to 9cannons at natural choke during your 200food attack, keep pheonix between third/army while attacking. If mutas engage your voidrays, fly in pheonix and take out the mutas. If mutas engage your base (to baserace) combat mutas with pheonix while attacking zergs bases with main army and collossi at choke deals with ling runby. If zerg sends muta/ling to baserace and snipes the collossi with muta, a-move the zergs main with zealot/voidray and a-move your collossi back to your natural to deal with the lings while pheonix take out mutas.
Ultimate endgame army is pure voidray, 3-4 range collossi. Get +1 collossi attack. Spread your voidrays against fungal. 15+ 200energy infestors plus queen/hydra counter voidrays, but you should CONSTANTLY be attacking every time you hit 200food thus not allowing the zerg to build up 15+ 200energy infestors. Every time you get 200food, a-move across the map while constantly SPLITTING your army, pressing S, then a-moving again, then SPLITTING AGAIN, press S, then a-move again. This splits up your collossi/voidrays as they are a-moving across the map then split voidrays during battle to reduce the damage you take from fungal. Zerg can certainly beat this style, but he has to go hydra/queen/fungal/ultralisk to do it allowing you to mothership/7voidray recall harass all day against his ground army giving you a chance to win as well.
Because the attacks are happening right when you hit 200food and generally the zerg isnt ahead if you econimcally and you both hit 200food at the same time, if the zerg went mass infestors he will die because he doesnt have 200energy on them all.
The theory behind this build is I knew the 2gate was working well and i was doing 8gates or DT's off of it but I tried to think of what would be the strongest transition from the 2gate. Then I thought about PvZ and realized, the most powerful build is probably something that is "countered" by hydras, because hydras suck donkey balls. I decided to try finding the build where the zergs strongest response would be hydras, and I came up with this. When you do this build your laughing at the zerg saying "yes, im massing voidrays. make hydras bitch. hahahaha go ahead make some hydras come on baby click that spawn hydralisk button you know you have to". Its just so funny just the mental aspect of forcing a zerg to click the spawn hydralisk button hahaha, by then youve likely already won just from the mental aspect.
First of all, due to the opening paragraph I can't tell if this is a joke.
However.
I open 2gate in 90% of my PvZ, but a bit different than this. I put my gates down at 10 and 14, so that I'm safe against 7pool and so I can begin the pressure asap. The goal is to force him to spend his larvae on zerglings, not drones. Since your economy is going to fly past his anyway (initially), you might as well start as soon as you can and the exact timestamp of when your have enough mining to expand doesn't matter, since the zerg is falling behind sooner.
Stargate play is typically strong after the game stabilizes, because they are in a weaker position than normal and you can punish whichever thing they're lacking, be that drone count, too few queens, or not enough spores (which is like drone kills when they have to build more). I'm not sure you have to focus your entire transition on it though. You should just be playing normal (but with an advantage from the early game). I usually get a few phoenix asap after the void ray unless I know for sure they aren't going mutas, which is a common "all in" after you mess them up early. If you never see roaches or a warren, you need phoenix and sentries to make sure you don't die to banelings or mutas, unless they went for a 3rd hatch in which case you know you can kill that, if not them.
It seems like your version would be stronger as a forge opener for safety, then forego the cannon and add a second gate when you see a fast 3rd. You would have zealots even later (a little) but you could get +1 (at a different timing than the single gateway +1 timing) and your threat would last a lot longer vs huge ling numbers.
In any case, this style is really all about reading the zerg's response and knowing how to tech to defeat his possible all-in responses while throwing a second stage of pressure back at them soon after your 2nd base kicks in. Micro your zealots and you can really make them sweat for a long time, while you are making probes and pylons.
I watched the baneling bust replay. The zerg played very bad... he missed his very first inject for a lot of seconds, didn't constatnly do anything with his first larva etc. I would like you to provide us better replays first where the zerg actually played good ( or at least where you lost but not because of a stupid mistake ) . I don't think replays with bad reactions by zerg ( hydras are bad reaction to mass sg anyway ) are interesting and don't validate your build.
Now, my thoughts and experience with 2gate expo builds. First, you'll be vastly outnumbered after the first inject and the right reaction to many lings is to make a cannon because your first zealots are very much dead ( if you're in front of his natural as you said you would be ) because they are slower - and I don't think you'll have enough zealots to micro because you'll be fully surrounded.
Second - no the spinecrawler is bad reaction to a 2gate because zerg really wants map control and if a zerg doesn't want to all in he'll make just enough lings to kill your zealots and the rest drones and put a 3rd, and in the end you'll probably be behind because you got a later expo and later tech.
Also, what server do you play on and how many points do you have. Top 4 master means nothing 'cause I was once top 4 master in a terrible divison lol ( bnet profile link maybe? ) .
EDIT: If you block the hatch on a 2 player map then the right decision for a zerg would probably be to make an off hatch to have enough larva. Also I won vs 2gate expo builds with mass lings by killing their front gateways just because they didn't make a cannon after their zealots died.
This is a metagame build base on your opponent not drone scouting what you do and assuming your doing a standard FFE.
You're also assuming that he'll make roaches.
A smart Zerg will see you're just massing zealots at his front with his overlord and drop a baneling nest, then proceed to take his natural while denying yours with his speelings and banes or just double expand.
On August 17 2012 06:01 Psychlone wrote: This is a metagame build base on your opponent not drone scouting what you do and assuming your doing a standard FFE.
You're also assuming that he'll make roaches.
A smart Zerg will see you're just massing zealots at his front with his overlord and drop a baneling nest, then proceed to take his natural while denying yours with his speelings and banes or just double expand.
I also have my doubts about the banneling bust. You delay your cybercore too much to have sentries or voidrays ready if he goes for quick banelings.
A good banneling bust has bannelings morphing at your door around the 7' mark. If you check your second replay, at this point you have one cannon half way done, cybercore just finished, and 5 zealots. You'd definitely have no time for a sentry or a voidray.
That Zerg was 2 minutes late ( push came at 9' ). I guess a part of that is due to the pressure you put early, but I still believe a Zerg could bust you a lot faster despite the pressure..
Have to watch replay but if you want to tell people how big your dick is, jist state how many points you have. Its much easier.
Kind of skeptical by skim reading through the guide but we'll see. Sounds interesting though but i feel like against a good zerg, he can deflect the zealots with minimum lings/queens and you will be set back so much due to large investment. Later scouts your double stargate and crush it with infest queen hydra.
Yeah, because your build makes no sense. I thought you were trying to kill the natural, but no... your zealots are completely useless, then you transition into an allin mass Void Rays...
I watched the replays. The zergs played abysmal and they still had a shot.
Kiwikakki used to make 2 gates zealots after forge to kill the fast 3rd. That was much more efficient.
On August 17 2012 05:46 EatThePath wrote: I open 2gate in 90% of my PvZ, but a bit different than this. I put my gates down at 10 and 14, so that I'm safe against 7pool and so I can begin the pressure asap. The goal is to force him to spend his larvae on zerglings, not drones. Since your economy is going to fly past his anyway (initially), you might as well start as soon as you can and the exact timestamp of when your have enough mining to expand doesn't matter, since the zerg is falling behind sooner.
I do a 12/15 gate for most PvZs which allows for a pylon block on the nat on all 2 player maps and sometimes on 4 players if its one of the first 2 bases you scout. If you can block the nat you can usually delay it for a really long time and if he expands to his third it can quite often die to the zealots if you micro well because he shouldn't be able to get a queen there. The 12/15 feels smoother than any others that I've done and doesn't really delay your economy at all. If you scout the 7pool you can also usually defend without losing anything if you micro your units.
On August 17 2012 11:55 rauk wrote: 1000 points is so far away from facing gm lol
i hate to say it but yeah
tbh id probly be behind vs 2 gate zealot opening since i dont ever scout zvp. The mass voidray thing is not too hard to deal with if the 7:00 overlord suicide sees anything. Id probably get 3 bases fully saturated and do a 15 hydra, roach, +1 range attack allin timing. I do it when i see anyone makes more than 2 voidrays. Its tough for you to scout since i make all the hydras at once.
Also a baneling bust would be pretty strong vs this if you choose not to get sentries but id say thats completely scoutable with this type of pressure.
Overall the build reminds me a lot of combat ex's old pvz build
A reminder, even though literally no one does it ever anymore, 2gate pressure will auto-lose to a 1 base roach play like 7rr. I think it's completely fine to do this 2gate build, I just don't like how it works since it has such a ridiculously hard counter, no matter how uncommon it is.
Just as a question, since I'm a relatively low level player, does the fact that the 7rr'ing player can't scout you in time, and you can do builds that crush 7rr, justify the fact that you're making the same gamble with him not going 7rr when you 2gate?
On August 17 2012 05:46 EatThePath wrote: I open 2gate in 90% of my PvZ, but a bit different than this. I put my gates down at 10 and 14, so that I'm safe against 7pool and so I can begin the pressure asap. The goal is to force him to spend his larvae on zerglings, not drones. Since your economy is going to fly past his anyway (initially), you might as well start as soon as you can and the exact timestamp of when your have enough mining to expand doesn't matter, since the zerg is falling behind sooner.
I do a 12/15 gate for most PvZs which allows for a pylon block on the nat on all 2 player maps and sometimes on 4 players if its one of the first 2 bases you scout. If you can block the nat you can usually delay it for a really long time and if he expands to his third it can quite often die to the zealots if you micro well because he shouldn't be able to get a queen there. The 12/15 feels smoother than any others that I've done and doesn't really delay your economy at all. If you scout the 7pool you can also usually defend without losing anything if you micro your units.
The timing for a 7pool seems pretty tight. Your zealot will be only half way done when the lings show up and start killing pylons. What kind of wall do you use?
On August 17 2012 15:09 Blunk wrote: A reminder, even though literally no one does it ever anymore, 2gate pressure will auto-lose to a 1 base roach play like 7rr. I think it's completely fine to do this 2gate build, I just don't like how it works since it has such a ridiculously hard counter, no matter how uncommon it is.
Just as a question, since I'm a relatively low level player, does the fact that the 7rr'ing player can't scout you in time, and you can do builds that crush 7rr, justify the fact that you're making the same gamble with him not going 7rr when you 2gate?
I've never had to actually do it, but if I scouted 7rr, I would still make zealots (as funds allow while getting cannons asap) and try to kill his drones. He'll have to pull his workers and micro his first roaches at home for at least 20-30 seconds, which should neuter the follow through and/or delay the initial push for you to make way too many cannons for him to break. In theory.
On August 17 2012 05:46 EatThePath wrote: I open 2gate in 90% of my PvZ, but a bit different than this. I put my gates down at 10 and 14, so that I'm safe against 7pool and so I can begin the pressure asap. The goal is to force him to spend his larvae on zerglings, not drones. Since your economy is going to fly past his anyway (initially), you might as well start as soon as you can and the exact timestamp of when your have enough mining to expand doesn't matter, since the zerg is falling behind sooner.
I do a 12/15 gate for most PvZs which allows for a pylon block on the nat on all 2 player maps and sometimes on 4 players if its one of the first 2 bases you scout. If you can block the nat you can usually delay it for a really long time and if he expands to his third it can quite often die to the zealots if you micro well because he shouldn't be able to get a queen there. The 12/15 feels smoother than any others that I've done and doesn't really delay your economy at all. If you scout the 7pool you can also usually defend without losing anything if you micro your units.
The timing for a 7pool seems pretty tight. Your zealot will be only half way done when the lings show up and start killing pylons. What kind of wall do you use?
On August 17 2012 15:09 Blunk wrote: A reminder, even though literally no one does it ever anymore, 2gate pressure will auto-lose to a 1 base roach play like 7rr. I think it's completely fine to do this 2gate build, I just don't like how it works since it has such a ridiculously hard counter, no matter how uncommon it is.
Just as a question, since I'm a relatively low level player, does the fact that the 7rr'ing player can't scout you in time, and you can do builds that crush 7rr, justify the fact that you're making the same gamble with him not going 7rr when you 2gate?
I've never had to actually do it, but if I scouted 7rr, I would still make zealots (as funds allow while getting cannons asap) and try to kill his drones. He'll have to pull his workers and micro his first roaches at home for at least 20-30 seconds, which should neuter the follow through and/or delay the initial push for you to make way too many cannons for him to break. In theory.
In my experience, the time the zealot buy you isn't enough. What usually happens is he kills the zealots after you try and be annoying, pushes immediatly, and even if you have a cannon up, he can just methodically kill your wall slowly since you have no ranged units to volley over the wall, or ff.
On August 17 2012 05:46 EatThePath wrote: I open 2gate in 90% of my PvZ, but a bit different than this. I put my gates down at 10 and 14, so that I'm safe against 7pool and so I can begin the pressure asap. The goal is to force him to spend his larvae on zerglings, not drones. Since your economy is going to fly past his anyway (initially), you might as well start as soon as you can and the exact timestamp of when your have enough mining to expand doesn't matter, since the zerg is falling behind sooner.
I do a 12/15 gate for most PvZs which allows for a pylon block on the nat on all 2 player maps and sometimes on 4 players if its one of the first 2 bases you scout. If you can block the nat you can usually delay it for a really long time and if he expands to his third it can quite often die to the zealots if you micro well because he shouldn't be able to get a queen there. The 12/15 feels smoother than any others that I've done and doesn't really delay your economy at all. If you scout the 7pool you can also usually defend without losing anything if you micro your units.
The timing for a 7pool seems pretty tight. Your zealot will be only half way done when the lings show up and start killing pylons. What kind of wall do you use?
I go for the 2 gateways and then a forge (with a third gateway for some maps e.g. condemned, antiga). Daybreak is different. If you place your buildings correctly you should be able to block in the pylons. Delaying the expansion is usually enough to drop the third building in time for a total wall. But I haven't played against it loads, and certainly not at the highest level.
Not that I spent forever looking into this, I just clicked on the replay and saw the account 'taketobreak', which I distinctly remembered as a huge troll. Wasn't hard to google 'teamliquid taketobreak' to see some gems.
By the way 1000 points is arguably low masters (midmasters at best). You aren't going to be facing GM's anytime soon. The only reason you are top 4 in your division is because it's a low level division, you'd be lucky to be top 25 in most divisions. (i have 300 points more than you and I'm rank ~13)
On a more serious note, I'd love to play some games out against this. Belial.869. I seriously doubt that this all-in is a strong build though, a proper reaction to zerg wouldn't be a spine or roaches, it would be to get speedlings, then take a third when you take your natural, and be way ahead. It should be pretty obvious what you are doing when you are getting 4 gas so quickly off a gateway expand build that only builds zealots, zerg is going to assume definitely DTs or SG tech. Most zergs these days seem to go infestor tech vs stargate too, not everyone goes hydras anymore (ie mc vs nerchio as a recent example, he doesnt ever get hydras, and responds to stargate with infestors every time). Plus, you make it sound like someone responding to your all-in with hydras is a bad thing - zerg just makes a couple hydras, defends your all-in follow-up to your all-in, and then forever denies your third, and busts your natural most likely too consideringhow much you dedicated to air.
On a side note, i don't think any sort of 1 base all-in (or even 2 base) would be very strong against a 2 gate opening like this. Zerg all-ins are pretty weak and get owned if the opponent is going for an all-in, generally. Not to say this build is good, but anyone saying a 7RR would beat this I don't think is correct.
Seems like a build just to punish bad zergs though. I think the reason you never see 2 gate other than maybe proxy 9/10 gates in pro play is because pro zergs will react just fine and know to drone hard against it.
EPT
