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Ok... my friend has a pass, so he showed me the game.
What bomber did was absolutely not what this guide is about.
Differences from the guide:
+ Show Spoiler +
First off, he had way too much bio, and even worse, dozens of mediveks (that all got fungled. at more than one occasion).
At some point, he had 16 Marauders, 44 marines, 4 medivecs, 4 BC, 2 Ravens.. which is 4.2k minerals and 800 gas which should've been 5 PF's and more CC's, and (or) more BC/Raven. Also, he lost 9 medivecs with 4 marauders and around 22 marines to fungals earlier.. that's 1k gas and 2.4k minerals for nothing! The same supply, or even resource equivalent of BC/Raven would never have traded this badly. Not what the guide says to do.
2nd, his late-game composition was NOT pure raven/BC, it had a ton of bio with some medivecs, and his chokes weren't protected by 3/4 PF's each, like they should have by that time. So in the engagement at the last base, he got all his bio fungled. It was arguably good that he built his bio at first, but why not slowly sac and and get Battle Crusiers? Why did he rebuilt bio every time his previous bio got killed?
3rd, his raven control was lacking at some points. I'm not saying it's easy, but it clearly shows he didn't practice that strategy enough, else he should never have let as many ravens get fungled. Of course, if he had pure BC/Raven, he would be able to just Yomato some infestors from afar, and fly back to recharge energy. If the all infestors are the ones engaging, he should've had ravens ready to flan at least from 4 sides (2/3 ravens from 4 sides, while the BC's move forward from their side), so the infestors can't retreat without getting hit by HSM's. If one/two infestors are sent, what are they gonna do, fungle 4/5 BC's and die from 2 Yomatos? that's not a good trade.
4, he didn't have nearly enough PF's for it to be considered that strategy in this guide. According to this, he should've had 3 PF's at least by 30min, at each of the forward bases, that being 9 Total (with possible additional ones). Instead, at around that time he gets fungled for 5 PF worth of resources, taking out one poor hatchery. That's why you don't go bio and medivecs past the mid game, if you don't intent to commit to bio.
5.Vikings. How is a Viking better than a Raven? Versus infestors or Hydra's, Ravens are infinitely better than vikings, while still very useful versus Curruptors.
TL;DR
What bomber did was absolutely not what this guide is about, and therefore not really relevant.
M unrelated thoughts on the match:
+ Show Spoiler +
Lots of bio/medivek supply which should have been BC/Raven, lots of bunkers, not enough PF's. It's ok he built the bio and medivecs at first, but why rebuild them after he already secured his BC/Raven production? Why not make more PF's for defense?
Even with that, he still crashed all of Freaks bases with the small amount of BC/Raven he had. Image he'd have 22 ravens and 16 BC? That game would be over.
No hate for Bomber btw, he's an excellent player, it's just he clearly didn't practice/think through this strategy enough. This is supported by the facts that his BC/Raven upgrades were off their timings. If he was experienced with this, it wouldn't happen.
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Ok so my thoughts as a Zerg player:
You say to keep the ravens behind the BCs, but what if Zerg sends 1 or 2 infestors to flank and fungal, then swoop around with corruptors to snipe your precious ravens? You can only make 3-4 at a time, and BCs are slow motherfuckers so I could fungal/remax and kill your army. True, I might not be able to kill you right away, but morphing a few broods will make your TSIs useless. Don't BCs take 90 seconds? That's enough time to morph broodlords AND attack for about a minute. At the very least I could deny your production and then win shortly after.
It just seems that if you ever move out to attack, you're very vulnerable to single infestor flanks. FG on Ravens is as good as HSM on infestors! I feel like it would be a micro war, where your composition is /slightly/ easier to control. Seriously, when you leave your base, if you lose the ravens then you lose the game.
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On August 03 2012 17:37 tdt.Baki wrote:
@ JDub
I would like to see that game, can you give more specifics which one was it?
It was game 2 from MarineKing v. Suhosin in the final round of Code A (http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67627/?set=2&lang=). It's played on Metropolis, and MKP goes for a standard bio/tank/medivac opener and macros like a mad man (of course), getting up to 5 bases rather quickly, while keeping his opponent occupied with drop harassment, etc.. He makes the air transition starting around the 20:00 minute mark, when he builds 6 additional starports all at once, gets his double air upgrades going, and has placed planetaries in the two choke points. He successfully turtles as he builds his massive air army, and adds a bunch of orbitals and starts to replace his scvs with mules.
The main differences between MKP's play and the OP's guide are:
1) MKP doesn't make the air transition until he has gotten 5 bases up, with planetaries/tanks to defend and the economy to support 6-7 starports all at once. MKP plays standard marine/tank/medivac, getting 3/3 bio upgrades with 3 vehicle attack and keeping constant pressure on his opponent while he builds up the infrastructure for the air switch.
2) Vikings are a big part of MKP's composition, as his end-game composition has about a 2:1:1 ratio of vikings:BCs:ravens. He also supplements these with some tanks/thors on the ground.
3) MKP adds 4 OCs as he reaches 200/200 supply with his air army, and sacrifices scvs to free up more supply for his army.
Now, this doesn't mean that the OP's strategy of rushing to BC/Raven off of 2/3 bases is necessarily wrong. But I do think the OP's strat will run into some trouble whilst building the air army, when Zerg should be able to macro as much as they want to, take their side of the map, and throw wave after wave of units at the Terran.
Also, it's hard to consider a guide being used at a high level when it includes stuff like "turret the shit out of your base", and "you'll be floating tons of minerals b/c you can't macro while attacking". Just my thoughts
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I think that if you want to make battlecruisers of 2/3 bases and build up a sizeable force to kill zerg with he probably has taken over half the map by than and double the amount of income.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 03 2012 19:08 Probe1 wrote:
GOM is very restrictive, your best bet is to look somewhere other than Youtube as it would most likely be taken down. Anyway it was a horrifying game that lasted 1 hour and 1 minute and featured raven BC into every unit terran can make except ghosts. Bomber never makes a ghost and subsequently loses to pure infestor (like pure, 36 at once and probably around 50 made the entire game). It was gross.
Bomber transitioned out of Raven BC because after losing a bunch of ravens and BCs while Zerg happily reached endgame tech, there was no way he could have the time to peacefully remake such an army so he had to just throw units at the wall and see what stuck.
This is an interesting point that you make. I've been experimenting with lategame terran, and especially BCs, and the most difficult wall to overcome is "what do I do if my big expensive army just dies at some point?" This is the question zerg faced for a really long time and they managed to figure out this "remaxing problem".
I wrote a guide a while back that talks about playing bio against zerg while slowly transitioning into a lategame mech/air army: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353517 I solve the problem of remaxing and having a strong army by retaining ~8 rax with 3/3 bio upgrades as well as having the flexibility to remax on 3/3 thor/hellion.
In relation to the topic, I prefer a BC transition first instead of Ravens. Ravens take a lot of time to get up with 5 upgrades, energy accumulation, and build time. In the end, I've found a it a much smoother transition to go through BCs, retaining a strong army while buying yourself more time to get up all your geysers and tech. I think the most important thing that BC's do is skew the army composition of zerg a bit. Because of the large air army of BC/viking, zerg is forced to make less Blords and focus on more corruptors/infestors. Obviously, the less Blords there are, the weaker the zerg army is against the ground. In addition, BCs kind of serve the role of being a giant PDD, drawing some of the fire away from your vikings. That being said, I've had incredible success with just adding 3-4 BCs to a hellion/thor/viking army. With this slight skew of units, everything in your army suddenly has a much higher survivability rate. In addition, BCs in general are just good against everything on the ground.
Obviously, you want to get at least a few ravens in there by the endgame, but mech/BC with the flexibility to switch back into bio at any time is immensely powerful on its own. I really think BC transitions are the future of terran in both TvP and TvZ.
P.S. If you didn't know, a lategame BC transition was the choice in BW in TvZ. Firebathero did this with great success, forcing the zerg players to have to incorporate hydras/scourages into their army instead of the more cost-efficient ling/lurker/ultra. It just gave all the terran units a little more suvivability because of less lurker/ultra.
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This guide is for mid diamond and lower, isn't it ?
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EPT
