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On April 16 2012 18:28 Xana wrote:
Whenever I see this I stream slow lings. It may sound ludicrus but slow lings are able to easily deny the expansion from going down from a few zealots. On most maps you'll also be there before he can toss up cannons. When speed kicks in thats basically one gate FE denied, and the Zerg will be on two base w/ speedlings.
So far I've yet to experience my slow lings arriving too late, but I assume you can cut probe production if you somehow scout the lings popping out at my base.
The build is holdable vs. speedling openers. You basically can have 2 zealots when your initial 6 lings arrive and the ramp walled-off, and 3 zealots + a cannon when ling speed is done @ ~5mins if you opened gas -> pool. If you actually deny the expo protoss messed up pretty badly, and as Zerg you basically have to do a TON of damage to even the game up because if you stream lings you're sitting at something like 16 probes for a very long time.
On April 16 2012 21:24 Crow! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 15:48 Skyro wrote:On April 16 2012 14:10 Crow! wrote:Basic concept reminds me of my gateway forge +1 weapons pressure opening I wrote up a while ago. Here's a link to that one for anyone interested in comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268044I still use the basic framework linked above, with a few tweaks here and there. I'll give this variant a try, but my experience generally leads me to be leery of using Zealots prior to +1 completing. Decent Zerg micro lets the Zealots be removed awfully cost effectively by the zerg without requiring him to tech at all. You can easily time +1 weapons and WG tech with a gate-nexus-core opening. If you think a +1 Zealot push is strong, one backed up with WG tech is like a gazillion times stronger. How fast you can get it depends on probes cuts, as if you don't cut probes this can be done @ 7:20, but if you do cut Probes this can be done even before 7:00 minutes. In my experience, by 7:00 Zerg can have Roaches without having cut any meaningful amount of their economy, and Roaches on creep in theory remove an infinite amount of slow Zealots. Without enough time to charge up force fields, sentry+stalkers wouldn't work especially well either. And speed is likely ready too, so you can no longer retreat (especially if you made any stalkers to deal with the Roaches). Basically, by that point it seems to me more like a sissy version of a 4 gate rather than like a noncommital pressure build. +1 weapons is strong so long as the Zerg hasn't yet developed enough tech to ignore it. I'm not convinced 7:00 or 7:20 is early enough for that to be true if they're diligent about scouting your front. I could be wrong, the lessened damage to the Zerg to have the tech ready by then could be equally balanced by the faster second base this grants compared to my build. Another thing that worries me is scouting. When playing Gateway+Forge, I find that when I head out with my Zealots at ~5:50, I arrive at their base just barely in time to see any 2 hatch all-ins that I have to cannon up heavily for. Can the non-upgraded Zealots really get in to the Zerg base in time to determine whether this is happening? I feel like making 8 lings and intercepting the Zealot pair shortly before they enter Zerg's base would leave us in a pretty hard guessing game. If you don't see the flood of lings such as Xana is referring to until they're almost at your door, it's too late to make cannons, while getting cannons blindly is setting yourself behind.
Normal 3-hatch no gas openings get roach warren like @ 7 mins and double extractors @ 6 mins. A 7:20 zealot push means a <6 min warren AND <6 min double extractors. It is not possible for a zerg player to have ling speed done AND roaches when the limiting resource from a 3-hatch no gas opening is, well, gas.
Your build hits earlier, but is 100% scoutable. That is a very, very big problem at higher levels, because a zerg player can make exactly the correct amount of lings to defend. This is not something they can do if you have warpgate tech done. What this means is that they essentially have to overmake units in case you do warp-in more zealots, and since it's impossible for ling speed to be done if they went 3-hatch no gas you can just simply run away, and not even waste any resources on zealots you don't need by not warping them in if they have a lot of roaches out already.
And in terms of econ, it's all relative. Your build right out of the gate starts at an econ disadvantage, but out of a FFE or gate-nexus build your econ is on par with a zerg until 7 mins as this is when the 3rd hatch/3 queen production really starts to kick in. By doing zealot pressure at this time to force units rather than drones it buys you time to stay on par with the zerg econ and grab a 3rd, gear up for a 2-base all-in, etc. Since your build already starts off at an econ advantage, it means you HAVE to do damage or you are behind. That makes your zealot pressure even MORE predictable than it is, even if it is already 100% scoutable. With a FFE or gate-nexus build you can fake pressure and just fall back and you're still in the game. I can fake pressure and fall back on a 6-7min third base for instance. And like I said if you really wanted to hit earlier than 7:20 out of a gate-nexus you could but you have to cut probes, but you're probably still ahead of your build econ-wise since your nexus up so fast!
In terms of scouting you can generally move out with 4 zealots @ 6 mins so there is no difference there. If he actually makes enough lings to kill off 4 zealots then that means he's probably going to baneling bust you because with proper micro 4 zealots, even unupgraded, can kill a truckton of slow lings. If he opened gas-> pool and has ling speed you probably shouldn't have been pushing out in the first place. IMO the main threat are baneling busts since they can hide their banelings and bust you when your zealots are out, but that is a problem with any kind of zealot pressure build. I think to be 100% safe vs. baneling busts at this time you need to forgo the zealot pressure if you scout no fast 3rd hatch and make a sentry after the 2nd zealot.
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I've been playing this a few times. I still can't quite believe that it's safe, and even hatch first can just shrug off the zealots with slowlings, and the cannon rush is too late to be effectivevs hatch first (too much creep, so can't build it in a corner). However, the zealots do get in for scouting (at lower levels at least) and I do get a notably faster economy going compared to my usual +1 zealot pressure build.
I'm worried that at higher levels the scouting the Zealots are supposed to provide can be completely denied by slowling micro, leaving this build too blind, so that it has to flip a coin and either prepare for an all-in or play greedily.
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On April 17 2012 05:38 Crow! wrote:
I've been playing this a few times. I still can't quite believe that it's safe, and even hatch first can just shrug off the zealots with slowlings, and the cannon rush is too late to be effectivevs hatch first (too much creep, so can't build it in a corner). However, the zealots do get in for scouting (at lower levels at least) and I do get a notably faster economy going compared to my usual +1 zealot pressure build.
I'm worried that at higher levels the scouting the Zealots are supposed to provide can be completely denied by slowling micro, leaving this build too blind, so that it has to flip a coin and either prepare for an all-in or play greedily.
I don't know what you mean by slowlings shrugging off zealots, as +1 zealots with micro destroy slowlings like nobody's business. Yes a gate expand cannot cannon rush a hatch first as you have no early forge, that is pretty obvious. The flipside of that equation is that you have higher initial income because you don't scout until 15/16, and if they hatch first you do not have to cut probes at all except for when you throw down your nexus at 17.
I also don't understand your point about zealot scouts not working at higher levels. Your +1 zealots are there to pressure, scouting is just a side benefit. There are a ton of pros who just use probes to scout. If you're scouting only with zealots then you should get out of that habit. Like I said above if you only scout with zealots he could baneling bust you when your zealots move out and you are pretty much dead. It's best to only go through with your zealot pressure if you scout the fast 3rd hatch. So what I'm trying to say is that this build is no more or less blind than any other protoss opening is since you should be relying on probes to scout.
In regards to the build being safe or not I can vouch for it (masters), Yuffie made a guide on it (high EU masters), and TitaN uses the opening a lot as well (who plays zergs like LZ and Nerchio in tourneys).
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I really like gate expands in PvZ. I usually go for Cecil's 1-gate 1-gas expand, but I'll have to check this build and Nony's 2gate build out.
For me at a plat / low diamond level I occasionally have trouble with roach/ling all-ins and early speedlings, but those losses are usually a result of poor scouting and build execution.
What I don't like about FFE is that usually the game revolves around the question of "Did the protoss manage to do decent pressure on the zerg third?, yes/no". With gate expands I feel you can keep the zerg a lot more honest, stopping them from droning for 7 straight minutes and forcing them into making units, contesting map control and being defensive etc. etc.
Thanks for the build. 
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something i have been playing around with is pushing out with the first 2 zealots to take control of the watch towers then back up until my 4th zealot is done and then go attack. taking the watch towers can put the zerg on edge and not know how many lings to make. as i push out i drop my forge and build a fifth zealot. i am still working on perfecting this build but the 4 chrono boosted zealots hits pretty early in the game and either gets a lot of ling kills if backed up aganst a wall or hatchery, or a hatch kill or it can be stopped by a 2 base roach rush., if roaches are spotted just retreat as on most maps the roaches are popping right as the zealots are getting to the zergs base and by dropping a few cannons you can hold it while you tech.
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I'm Fairly certain I saw white-ra do this on his stream a while back (like 3-4 weeks); looks fairly interesting to say the least.
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I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
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On April 17 2012 22:30 Crow! wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
You should be walling off at the top of your main ramp and plug it with a probe to prevent lings from running in your main. If they attempt to run up your ramp they will lose a few lings as they have to come back down.
Also it helps to not completely wall-off from your ramp to your nexus when the initial lings get to your natural. This allows your zealots to play "ring-around-the-rosie" with the lings making it much harder for them to juke your zealots and snipe stuff (like your cannon). Once your cannon completes you can complete the wall-off. I generally get my cannon between my 2nd and 3rd zealot vs gasless 14 pool openings.
Outside of that I don't know what issue you are having. The micro is honestly not that hard. The micro is fairly similar to how you would defend a 6 pool if you opened with a pylon + gate right next to your nexus. Post up a replay if you are still having issues.
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On April 17 2012 22:30 Crow! wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
Hi,
This is exactly why I have suggested the 1 gate 1 pylon low ground wall off. It allows you to keep your ramp walled and free the zealots to defend forge, pylon. Without this, a 13 pool just rallying slow lings can prevent the expansion.
I will update the guide with wall sim city for the new maps soon. I know my walls are not perfected yet, so I am eager for stronger players to toy with the concept.
The main disadvantages to the low ground wall are:
1. doesn't look like normal gateway build. this gives zerg easy scouting that you are expanding, not 4 gating/ 1 base stargate, etc.
2. awkward building placement on some maps (entombed) and inefficient compared to FFE building placement on others (shakuras)
3. Pretty much all your structures are on the low ground, so if you lose the front to roaches, you are finished. So far in my experience you can hold vs roach aggression, as the wall finishes quite early, and you have space for lots of cannons.
More details as I update guide with new maps.
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Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily.
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On April 30 2012 06:29 Skyro wrote:
Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily.
Hey skyro
I've taken to building gate and two pylons all low ground, which seems to held vs 6 pool blind if you get zealot before nexus. 2 pylons and tight ramp wall makes it hard for lings to do any damage. The only problem is you can't skip zealot as I like to do vs hatch first. So basically you can get an eco boost from delaying scout, or from skipping zealot, but not both.
BTW what is the standard sin city for metropolis? I haven't settled whether it's better to wall at rocks or tight with nexus. O guess it isn't on the pool right now anyway, but its the one I don't have set yet
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On April 30 2012 07:02 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 06:29 Skyro wrote:
Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily. Hey skyro I've taken to building gate and two pylons all low ground, which seems to held vs 6 pool blind if you get zealot before nexus. 2 pylons and tight ramp wall makes it hard for lings to do any damage. The only problem is you can't skip zealot as I like to do vs hatch first. So basically you can get an eco boost from delaying scout, or from skipping zealot, but not both. BTW what is the standard sin city for metropolis? I haven't settled whether it's better to wall at rocks or tight with nexus. O guess it isn't on the pool right now anyway, but its the one I don't have set yet
I always skip the first zealot unless I scout the early pool. With a 12/13 scout on a 2-player map you will see lings from a 6 pool leaving their base. This is right around the time you throw down your 2nd pylon, but before your nexus. The travel time from their base to yours should allow you to chrono out a zealot in time to defend. You're also going to want to pull a small batch of probes to defend as well, and fortify your wall-off with your 2nd pylon.
I think if the map allows to wall-off completely, rather than just from the ramp to your nexus, you should wall-off completely. It's just safer that way. So on maps like metropolis and daybreak where I can wall-off completely I make my initial pylon and gate on the low ground. If I'm just walling off from my ramp to my nexus I usually do not need the initial gateway and can just use the forge and core, so on those maps I make my initial pylon and gate on the high ground. The advantage of making it on the high ground is it is safer vs early pools and may also fool the zerg into thinking you are 3-gate sentry expanding or something.
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Half of the people on EU at a ~high master level play 1 gate nexus nowadays, good OP for the people unawares, but please don't act like you, yuffie, and adonminus are the first to do it.
Btw, on your build order, in my experience you can very often delay your zealot until after the nexus (depends on pool of course) and a cyber or forge (that depends on how fast you want a cannon).
If he goes 15 hatch you can get gas and cyber really fast, and if he doesn't get gas and you scout the 3rd and he doesn't get more lings, you can skip the cannon and go for a really fast 4 gate +1 (1 zealot ofc).
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I would like to thank you for that guide and I hope I will see this buid more and more in ladder.
Do you know why I go gaz first vs P ? To free win vs any variations of this buid, then my zvp ratio is not so low (master eu).
Yesterday I felt crazy and went gazless, the protoss was doing that and I have won with some slow lings... ( he was 600+ or something)
Don't copy build from pro in tournament, they have specific buid for opponent and map... Ok JYP did that vs Ret on dual sight but you know what ? Ret doesn't drone scout and makes only one pair of ling !
I really don't understand why people try to do this build, imo it is not viable...
Just go ffe and free win, oh, you may be bored of that.
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@BriTadeb: We're looking for alternatives to FFE because it often feels like it just sets us up to helplessly lose.
Failing to drone scout is alarmingly common these days. With my Gateway Forge +1 weapons rush, which I expect to just force the opponent to make enough defenses that we wind up economically even, I'm finding that Zergs just assume I'm doing FFE and wind up dying to basic Zealot pressure.
Any variation to the norm that forces the Zerg to start scouting again is a good thing - Zerg not having to scout while we have to 9 scout or earlier is another part of how going FFE sets you up to fall so far behind the Zerg. I'm still trying to figure out how much pressure I can actually do in this variation, though - if it's not enough, it might not matter whether they scout that it's different from FFE.
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Quillian,
I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod:
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ).
He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush.
The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30.
He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it.
If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt.
From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
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On May 01 2012 00:37 Nyast wrote:Quillian, I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ). He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush. The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30. He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it. If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt. From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
Interesting. So Attero 9 Pylon scouts for the 6 pool which allows him to throw his initial gate down as part of his wall-off at his natural. This seems to only be safe on 2P maps though, otherwise if you don't scout their location correctly on the first try then you have to throw down a forge instead of gate to be 100% safe.
I'm not so sure about early zealot harass though. What if the zerg player splits his lings and sends some to protoss' third? He has no wall-off or units to defend. And is it even worth delaying your tech? Delaying tech means you're not going to hit any +1 WG timing. There certainly are merits to making a zealot before nexus though.
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I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it
I was very skeptical of this build myself as I was a huge fan of FFE; however, after stephano style roaches, I began experimenting with different builds because it seemed to me that zergs had figured out the FFE. I've had enormous success with this build, and old school 1 gate cyber into a slower expands. Your honestly not giving up much economy because your going to force the zerg to respond and keep him from droneing. If the zerg tries to take a fast 3rd vs this type of build, it's much easier to punish them. ]
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On May 01 2012 00:37 Nyast wrote:Quillian, I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ). He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush. The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30. He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it. If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt. From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
Hi Nyast!
Interesting, thanks for the link!
After watching it, I feel like it isn't as secure or economic as what I've been doing. 9 scout loses some minerals, and the very loose low ground sim city with the first 2 pylons and gateway would be very vulnerable to a 13 pool slow ling attack.
I feel like if the zerg had ignored the pylon at his natural and just run by the incomplete wall with his fist lings it would have been ugly.
If you build you pylon and gateway at the bottom of your ramp and scout on 13, you will be secure from ling cheese and see his pool in time to cancel the zealot and go nexus first, or chrono additional zealots to defend against lings.
The early zealot pressure is interesting. Not something I would try every game, but maybe good to have in your pocket on some maps.
note: there is another pvz with the same build at 1:00:00 where he gets a gg just from chrono'd zealots... crazy.
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EPT
