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On April 03 2012 11:26 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 09:23 Fencer710 wrote:
The thing is, since the ghost nerf, often if Zerg is ahead enough to get that 5+ infestor 10+ broodlord deathball, it's over if Terran doesn't have either a very large army advantage, say, 70+ marines in a huge concave or a surround, or the Zerg screws up his fungals on ravens and has his broodlords all clumped up.
Naturally this has lead to a lot of QQ from Terrans(myself included), and a reluctance to go into late-game vs Zerg. It also means that there are two matchups that the majority of us are crippled in in the late game. I think ghost have the same problem infestor did in 1.4, they are still good, but since they got recently nerfed no one actually want to play them. Keep in mind that if you get a good EMP, or even some good snipe on the infestors since it's now a 2shot kill, the marine can just stim, advance and vaporize 2000 worth of gas in 3sec, completely winning the game. So i know getting ghost in range isnt that easy, but getting to BL tech isnt either. Also BL/Infestor is very slow, and deprive the Z of muta, making him extremely vulnerable to multiple drops
Except infestors were nerfed like 10%. Ghosts nerfed 33%/50%.
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On April 03 2012 16:12 Agenda42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 11:40 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Mech TvZ does not "rely" on hitting a timing before Infestor/Brood Lord, the same way PvZ doesn't. It is an important timing to hit in both match-ups though, because, unless they are far behind, they have an army advantage, and the Zerg is forced to use larvae/resources on units they don't want to. A Mech player doesn't auto-lose against Infestor/Brood Lord. Vikings + Thors can deal with Infestor/Brood Lord quite well. In PvZ, it is often a stale mate situation I agree, but that is because of Spine Crawlers. The 'perfect' Protoss army is much more powerful if they aren't attacking into 10-20 Spine Crawlers. Can you link me to some pro level TvZs where the terran goes mech, gets to a level game state against infestor/broodlord/corruptor, and then wins the lategame? I don't recall seeing this ever in the GSL, but I could be forgetting. In terms of elite players, MVP wins tons of games with mech, but he does it with a three base timing that is almost all-in. MarineKing's marine/hellion/thor thing also relies on getting to the broodlords before they are an effective army. Overall usage of Mech TvZ appears to be on the rise in response to the zerg switch from muta to infestor play, but zerg remains dominant on long game statistics.
Winter Arena, Sheth vs Thorzain on Daybreak; also I think (havent seen, only heard) the simultanously played Nestea vs DeMuslim Match.
From what I remember from the match, Thorzain beat both T3 armies, BL based and Ultrabased ones in that game very decisivly.
As far as I remember there have been progamers of both sides (T and Z), who have said that Terrans will switch to "turtlemech" sooner or later, due to the better lategame composition.
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On April 03 2012 20:32 Hider wrote:
Except infestors were nerfed like 10%. Ghosts nerfed 33%/50%.
I think he/she may have been referring as much to the Neural Parasite change as the damage change, as it made them useless against Thor/Colossi.
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As a general note, I don't think it is good to discuss balance through comparisons between the races. Sure Terran can be hard to kill in the mid game before you have brood lords. Sure Zerg will die if you get behind in the midgame. But simply because Terran can do something really well doesn't mean that Zerg should be able to do that too. The races are created with massive differences in mind. Those differences are crucial and necessary.
I often am frustrated with a lose a TvZ and I made 800 units and got 50 kills. Terrible cost efficiency. But the fact is, Zerg allows you to make 800 units. That's pretty sick. If I would have had better positioning I probably would have won. Maximize your race's strengths. Abuse those mechanics. Don't try to do things other races do well.
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TvZ is as frustrating as ZvT ( I play both race ). This is a good point because it makes the match up interesting and challenging.
baneling mines =)
Marine split =)
Close to death target fire =)
Fungal growth =)
banelings ( I just love explosions) =)
It's intense and stressful the whole game.
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On April 03 2012 21:00 Big J wrote:
Winter Arena, Sheth vs Thorzain on Daybreak; also I think (havent seen, only heard) the simultanously played Nestea vs DeMuslim Match.
From what I remember from the match, Thorzain beat both T3 armies, BL based and Ultrabased ones in that game very decisivly.
As far as I remember there have been progamers of both sides (T and Z), who have said that Terrans will switch to "turtlemech" sooner or later, due to the better lategame composition.
I don't want to be too rough about this, as I thank you for the game recommendation, but it's hard to draw any useful conclusions out of that game because Sheth bungled the control so badly.
When we get to the infestor/broodlord/corruptor versus tank/thor/viking fight, Sheth didn't fungal anything at all in the first engagement, and his corruptors weren't even shooting anything as they were just sitting put west of the engagement. Then in the second engagement he flew his broodlords out where the infestors could only fungal about half the vikings, and his corruptors again weren't shooting at anything, this time because they were follow clicked on the broodlords.
I remember watching the NesTea-DeMuslim match and being utterly baffled. In game 3 on Shakuras, NesTea makes a nice transition into infestor/broodlord/corruptor behind a spine wall as DeMuslim's mech push hits his fourth, and he crushes the army at the cost of losing a couple of his infestors. Then he inexplicably decides to build a bunch of banelings instead of infestors, and he starts the death push with no corruptors and no fungals. Predictably, the vikings do great, and by the time NesTea gets around to making some infestors, 11 broodlords are dead. It's so strange to see a player of NesTea's caliber lose from a dominant position like this.
I do think mech is a better TvZ lategame army than marine/tank, and perhaps better than both is MarineKing's marine/hellion/thor TvZ as siege tanks are really quite poor against hive tech. I also think TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror match in the game at present. My complaint is that the way zerg is winning doesn't feel at all zergy, and I hope they fix this in the expansion.
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On April 04 2012 15:41 Agenda42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 21:00 Big J wrote:
Winter Arena, Sheth vs Thorzain on Daybreak; also I think (havent seen, only heard) the simultanously played Nestea vs DeMuslim Match.
From what I remember from the match, Thorzain beat both T3 armies, BL based and Ultrabased ones in that game very decisivly.
As far as I remember there have been progamers of both sides (T and Z), who have said that Terrans will switch to "turtlemech" sooner or later, due to the better lategame composition. I don't want to be too rough about this, as I thank you for the game recommendation, but it's hard to draw any useful conclusions out of that game because Sheth bungled the control so badly. When we get to the infestor/broodlord/corruptor versus tank/thor/viking fight, Sheth didn't fungal anything at all in the first engagement, and his corruptors weren't even shooting anything as they were just sitting put west of the engagement. Then in the second engagement he flew his broodlords out where the infestors could only fungal about half the vikings, and his corruptors again weren't shooting at anything, this time because they were follow clicked on the broodlords. I remember watching the NesTea-DeMuslim match and being utterly baffled. In game 3 on Shakuras, NesTea makes a nice transition into infestor/broodlord/corruptor behind a spine wall as DeMuslim's mech push hits his fourth, and he crushes the army at the cost of losing a couple of his infestors. Then he inexplicably decides to build a bunch of banelings instead of infestors, and he starts the death push with no corruptors and no fungals. Predictably, the vikings do great, and by the time NesTea gets around to making some infestors, 11 broodlords are dead. It's so strange to see a player of NesTea's caliber lose from a dominant position like this. I do think mech is a better TvZ lategame army than marine/tank, and perhaps better than both is MarineKing's marine/hellion/thor TvZ as siege tanks are really quite poor against hive tech. I also think TvZ is the most balanced non-mirror match in the game at present. My complaint is that the way zerg is winning doesn't feel at all zergy, and I hope they fix this in the expansion.
The biggest thing in the nestea game was that he lost all of his infestors when demuslim pushed before broodlords were done. The casters were screaming "GREAT FUNGALS OH MY GOD NESTEA IS SO GOOD" and failed to notice that 7 out of 8 infestors died in that battle and he didn't replace them, so when he did his broodlord push he had one single infestor, and he needed more, either for fungaling vikings or even just using infested terrans against thors.
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EPT
