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On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for?
Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early.
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On March 07 2012 01:28 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for? Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early.
No they don't. It's generally around 7 mins when it gets sent in.
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On March 07 2012 02:10 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 01:28 Affluenza wrote:On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for? Zerg usually sacrifice OL anywhere between 5-6 min mark so its not really early. No they don't. It's generally around 7 mins when it gets sent in.
7 minutes? You're already dead.gif
You have to know the amount of gases taken before 7 mins to make an appropriate reaction. Protoss timings are between 7-9 mins mark...
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On March 06 2012 19:50 Oboeman wrote:
Would you recommend getting drop tech with this style, especially when a protoss takes a fast 3rd with a high sentry count? It gives you another access point, for putting lings in his main while you are attacking his 3rd.
Not really, you are going to be super gas starved as it is when having roach/ling/muta and getting upgrades I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend burrow though  .
On March 06 2012 20:38 babysimba wrote:
Mutas are much better than some small drop harassment. With mutas, you have higher dps and can choose to attack and retreat at will. Drops are much harder to put on constant pressure and you can't really retreat.
Staying on lair tech means you have to do enough damage during trading of units or you will lose to the inevitable "death-push". Roaches don't do enough dps (also slow in chasing down probes) and lings (under-upgraded) get shredded by zealots warp-ins. Lack of dps and retreat options mean that it is not that urgent for toss to clean up the multi-pronged threat. As long as they save enough probes and not let too many buildings die, they can move around a bigger army to clean up area by area with superb cost efficiency.
On a side note, i wonder if anyone has a good solution to a well-executed warp prism harassment into immortal timing. Warp prism forces you to make units earlier and you can't even force them to commit their units due to shitty anti-air. Then, they come with a big timing with reinforcements right in your face. Zergs already have problem dealing with normal timing attacks, now this is one that forces you to have worse eco and absolutely no way to cut reinforcements.
Just thought I would say I have played vs a well executed immortal/stalker/sentry/zealot/warp prism push on korea, super hard to hold off as immortals are so strong xD. Need spines vs it or I am pretty sure you will die .
On March 06 2012 21:02 aebriol wrote:
How do you feel it compares to Stephano's style?
He use pretty much the same build,but he use first 100 gas for lair, second for ling speed, third for +1 range attack, 4th (unless aggression) for roach speed.
I feel the faster lair helps more than the faster ling speed in my play.
I don't really watch stephano so I can't really say how it compares sorry  .
On March 06 2012 21:30 TheGreenMachine wrote:
I love this style of ZvP, ive been doing something similar for a few months.
Some suggestions and questions!
-How would a slightly delayed gateway / cyber core affect your build? Im not entirely sure of the timing personally, I know many zergs say evo and roach warren between 7:00 and 7:30 and ofcourse the gate/cyber timing is crucial when making that decision.
-burrow is so good with this runby ling, roach, muta style tho it might require even more multitasking. What I love is hitting 3 places at once, do a runby hit the main and the nat, do major attack on the 3rd. Main is zealots vs your lings so you burrow, natural is some roaches just burrow, his army positioned well at his 3rd. So run more lings to his natural unborrow ect ect. Not too expensive for what it can force from your opponent including a burrowed ling u can put at his 3rd if u manage to kill it.
-worst thing I run into with this style is a lot of cannons or a very well positioned army / sim city. After seeing this type of thing I like to drone hard and spine up, 4 base brood. What would you do vs many cannons? or some tactics to get around good sim city / army positioning?
-gas timings past your first 3 gases? do you wait until 6 gas before you get aggressive? or get aggro with roach ling on 3 gas first? maybe a game-to-game decision.
Just means you can drone more if they are doing a delayed gate/cyber core ^^. I also agree with burrow being really good, been trying to incorporate it more in zvp like DRG.
If I see a lot of cannons, that often means he's doing some heavy teching of some sort. I would start scouting hardcore in his main/natural and see if he's doing stargate tech of some sort. Normally tosses don't just make a lot of cannons early-midish in the game unless teching.
I do get all 6 gases before I am aggressive just because of the muta transition and I alwasy feel gas starved once I have all my bases saturated while taking a fourth.
On March 06 2012 22:05 NeonFox wrote:
I love this, been playing like this since I saw Stephano's fast 3 base in ZvP. The difference is that I get both gasses at 6mn and an evo, then in order metabolic boost, +1 carapace/range then lair. It times so that you can plop down the roach warren when you start the evo upgrade, and the +1 will finish just after lair allowing you to get +2 asap, and still in time to defend gateway aggression. Also 3rd and 4th gas when you start lair. I don't like timing stuff in relation to the ingame timer thus this way I do it related to when my buildings/gas finish.
I don't like at all the spire before infestation pit if not going for mutas though, and the spire by default anyways. Relying on overseer scouting to know when to put it down is better imo. You also already adressed the 6:15 overlord sacrifice which seems too early to see some things to me.
If you are going infestors you obviously should get that first not the spire unless you see some carrier/mothership or mass phoenix play. Or fast colossi . Going to put a /infestation pit so people know that in the build.
6:15 does not seem early to me like I have said I always see if they are doing stargate/gateways being built. I would delay it a little bit if I saw a later then normal cyber core, but otherwise timing has always worked good for me so I am not going to change it ^^.
On March 06 2012 22:17 Zrana wrote:
I'm a bit of a nub and have trouble with 4gates (off ffe), 7gate blink and 6gate robo allins; what would your responses be with this build? Just roach/ling, or do you add in hydras or infestors or even muta?
By 4 gates do you mean Forge expand then early zealot pressure or something? If he does that it's easy to hold with roach/ling and its normally not to commited. 7 gate blink I would add hydra's or go infestors (especially vs +2 blink). Robo all in I would have spines roach/ling while getting mutalisks or roach/hydra/ling most likely is what I find, roach/ling does die to this alone if toss does proper force fields.
On March 07 2012 00:22 TangSC wrote:
Nice guide blade. I feel like the overlord scouts are a bit early (at least compared to my personal style of ZvP macro-aggression). Could you explain why you scout then and what you're looking for?
I always see the stargate/gateways being built when I scout at this time. I see no reason to delay it when it has worked so well for me and I always see gateways/stargates unless they proxy the stargates of course then I don't.
Thanks for the responses guys, will try to add more replays :D
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Can you still hold off 6 gate +1/7 gate builds with this while going fast lair? I've been under the impression that going lair and having a fast third will leave you too far behind economically to have the units to hold it off.
/plat noob
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On March 07 2012 04:48 Effay wrote:
Can you still hold off 6 gate +1/7 gate builds with this while going fast lair? I've been under the impression that going lair and having a fast third will leave you too far behind economically to have the units to hold it off.
/plat noob
Oh yes you can hold that easily. If its just gateway units yeah you can hold a 6/7 gate +1 all in with roach/ling while going lair 7-7:30 no problem. With the such late gas you have more drones earlier so you can pump out a ton of units and should hold just fine unless you supply block yourself or something.
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You said you don't like to continue getting melee upgrades, but if you're going for a bl/infestor/ling composition, don't you find they help immensely?
It's sort of rare that the protoss gets armor upgrades, but if they do non melee upgraded lings are significantly worse against stalkers, and even if they don't go armor, the added damage to BL and lings is immense, no?
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On March 07 2012 05:13 KhAmun wrote:
You said you don't like to continue getting melee upgrades, but if you're going for a bl/infestor/ling composition, don't you find they help immensely?
It's sort of rare that the protoss gets armor upgrades, but if they do non melee upgraded lings are significantly worse against stalkers, and even if they don't go armor, the added damage to BL and lings is immense, no?
Everytime I get melee upgrades I feel it costs me zvp games due to making so many roaches all game long. I don't just make ling/infestor/bl I have roaches as well. You can get it if you want but I don't
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Cool, another great guide by blade55555!
I've been using your ZvT Roach opener in practically every ZvT I get, I love it!
One question though, what's your usual ZvP build on Tal'Darim where the third is blocked by rocks? Do you just build more lings at the start? Or place a macro hatch by the rocks first? (I usually do one of these)
I've tried taking the nearest fourth base as my third befre, but then I lose horribly to air.
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On March 07 2012 07:29 archon256 wrote:
Cool, another great guide by blade55555!
I've been using your ZvT Roach opener in practically every ZvT I get, I love it!
One question though, what's your usual ZvP build on Tal'Darim where the third is blocked by rocks? Do you just build more lings at the start? Or place a macro hatch by the rocks first? (I usually do one of these)
I've tried taking the nearest fourth base as my third befre, but then I lose horribly to air.
On a map like that and shattered you need to go 2 base either infestor or muta, your choice  .
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United States8476 Posts
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
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On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
You wouldn't happen to have a few replay examples of this build / dealing with those early pylons? Would really like to take a look, I think it's an interesting approach.
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Looks good. I really like how your 3 protoss guides can be used as a history lesson of meta-game paradigm shifts in macro style zvp.
My only objection in this version would be to just go for one set on lings instead of two if you manage to place a 16 hatch. In my experience that little mineral difference in the beginning multiplies to 3-5 extra drones by the 8 minute mark if you stay on top of your injects.
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On March 08 2012 06:26 VoirDire wrote:
Looks good. I really like how your 3 protoss guides can be used as a history lesson of meta-game paradigm shifts in macro style zvp.
My only objection in this version would be to just go for one set on lings instead of two if you manage to place a 16 hatch. In my experience that little mineral difference in the beginning multiplies to 3-5 extra drones by the 8 minute mark if you stay on top of your injects.
I go for 2 sets for a reason. I like having control of watch towers, I think it's a must honestly and will never understand why zergs dont' control them. I also have lings scouting for proxy pylons/probes which is a must imo to do against forge FE.
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On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else.
Blade this is addressed at you as well
How do you progress your upgrades from there, do you keep up with carapace, switch to an attack or add another evo chamber? How valuable do you think that carapace ups are going into the late game?
In that same vein with brood lords do you prefer attack or carapace, I've seen both used and both obv have their merits.
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On March 08 2012 11:27 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 12:02 NrGmonk wrote:
I'm really a fan of +1 armor vs toss, as it lets you use lings versus the +1/+1 immortal push and lings will take 1 more hit to kill from +2 stalkers. However, what do you find is the exact advantage of getting the 6:00 evo instead of the standard 7:00-7:20 evo or the DRG 7:45 evo? Vs the drg timing, the advantage is that you get +1 in the timing window between 9:15 and 11:00. There are 3 different timings I could see the +1 being useful. Between 8:00 and 8:30, you'd hit the standard 4 gate +1 timing and your +1 won't help too much. And 11:00 is around the exact time most 2 base allins come, which I believe is the purpose of drg's timing. The advantage of of your +1 timing is vs the funky +1 pushes like 4 gate voidray and other weird late 4 gate pushes, which I believe roaches can hold perfectly well. However, if you don't want more roaches in your final army or want to punish these pushes, the early +1 would be useful. On the other hand, with later +1, you get more econ.
The way I believe drg holds early gateway pushes with such late gases/roach warren is by making large rounds of slow lings to deny proxy pylons. Thus, he can get away with about a 30 seconds later roach warren than normal and later gas than most people.
For reference, this is drg's build:
6:45 triple gas
lair asap
ling speed asap after
7:30-7:50 roach warren
7:45 evo
8:10 4th gas
roach speed asap
burrow usually asap
macro hatch somewhere in there
queens against stargate play
Idra has said that the reason drg is so successful vs toss (besides his multitasking) is that he gets such late gas and more drones than everyone else. Blade this is addressed at you as well How do you progress your upgrades from there, do you keep up with carapace, switch to an attack or add another evo chamber? How valuable do you think that carapace ups are going into the late game? In that same vein with brood lords do you prefer attack or carapace, I've seen both used and both obv have their merits.
I think I said something earlier, but yes I do get a second evo and get carapace + ranged attack. One of those upgrades will start later (for me ranged starts later then carapace).
I think carapace ups are important, but that's just my opinion on it I love the carapace upgrade first and yeah think its definitely worth it ^^.
For brood lords I believe carapace but I don't know for sure for this one.
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Thanks for the guide --- I was pretty much doing exactly what I was supposed to except in a non-optimized fashion. I also think I needed to get a spire much faster after infestation pit.
I do prefer:
9 overlord
12 pool
16 queen/ 4 lings
20/18 expo
19 overlord
21 queen
25 expo
24 overlord
24 Queen
12 pool makes it so I don't need to send a drone at 15 because one of my lings arrives at his base just in time for me to decide whether to take a 3rd. It also lets me handle hatch blocks more easily.
EDIT: I changed my mind about scouting at 15. If my lings have to kill a pylon, they don't spot his FFE in time for me to change my build efficiently.
EDIT2: Another advantage of 12 pool is that, if you make a 2nd queen right after your first, you can send your first queen to your nat, make a tumor/inject and send it straight to your 3rd. Make a queen at your nat right after that, and you will have 3 injects all perfectly aligned all game. You also get a single tumor that you can use to spread creep REALLY far by 11 mins. The tumor is laid at 5:20 so you can make tumors (380 seconds / 30 seconds per tumor) = 12 additional times by 11 mins.
Comparing my drone amounts to DRG, 12 pool is just as good as 14 pool.
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Deltrus I will never like 12 pool, I don't think it's even worth it with how tosses can just block the pathway to their natural with a couple gateways and then your lings are useless and I don't see 12 pool getting you more drones then 14 pool. Expansions seem later to me (20/18 expansion compared to 16). My main issue with zvp is I keep forgetting to make a 4'th queen to spread creep but otherwise I prefer my build to yours .
Now guys I updated the guide with same type of style, but I took mutalisks out completely. I have been having more success with roach/ling/infestor aggression with drop play if the toss decides to take a fast third. I mean I have really had a lot more success with it, forcing the toss to deal with drops while attacking into his army is great and the infestors make it so that immortals aren't so hard to deal with.
I was having trouble vs tosses who took a third and got heavy immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot as I always get stomped vs that with just roach/ling/muta . OP is updated and here are the two replays from korean server.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tn1y9kb25u2kd5w
http://www.mediafire.com/?ki8otws0bl9hm50
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I like the style a lot and play it quite similar. Not that fast and on your high level (diamond here), but harrasing with mutas, while keeping the toss main army somewhere else, by pressuring with my main army of roach/ling/infestor (Yeah I go infestor after the first 8-12 mutas). I also find it very helpful to set up a nydus at one point. Some toss totally wall off and you cant run in with lings. When facing this I harras a base with mutas and morph a nydus under them to send in some lings. (I would also do multi-nydus if I had the APM  )
Special thanks for the exact timings and the BO layout. This will definitly help me to improve.
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you should see the game of Stephano and WhiteRa in IPLMap Sanshorn Mists AE in their IPL4 SXSW Showmatch, shows how to drop Protoss' base as Zerg and how you can use Ovie drop with pure Roaches to deal with low Colossus counts and a decent number of Sentries.
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EPT
