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Hi,
I recently watched the LastShadow vlogs on TvP (which everybody should watch if you already haven't), and after playing some games with my practice partner, something LS talked about wasn't as apparent as he made it.
In his vlog he states the number of rax after CC are used for the following reasons:
3: all looks standard for P, relatively fast tech wanted for T
4: Unsure of what P is doing; safe for T, but can punish greed (soft counter to 2gate robo)
5: Used when expecting cheese.
This seems somewhat simple, except scouting before you decide the number of rax can be somewhat problematic.
I see 2 forms of scouting to base our decisions on.
x: (y [z]) where x = what we see, y = what we can assume, z = our reaction
Initial scv scout sees the following:
1 gas: (could be fast expo, could be 4gate [3rax for the first, 4/5 rax for second?])
2 gas: (could be cheese [5rax], fast tech [4rax], or sentry heavy, expand into tech, bad economy management [3/4rax?])
LS talks then about scanning the main at 6.15; personally I find this somewhat wasteful through experience. First off, you can't really change the path you're on by that stage (if you've gone 3rax, your factory is finished and your starport has started iirc, if you've gone 4rax, your gas is already late for any kind of quick tech, etc).
Realistically, most times you will see 3gateways. On the off chance you see 2/3gate robo (which he could have done off a late second gas which you hadn't seen), you are already committed to your current pathway and likely can't punish it.
I guess my ultimate question is: how can I get the most out of my build order decisions in early game TvP, rather than blindly choosing how many rax I feel like building?
Should I simply go 4rax every time I see 2gas, and 3rax every time I see 1gas, or is this too simplistic?
Disclaimer: For those who care, I'm a Master Terran on EU. While there are no replays in this thread, I don't think adding a bunch of replays of me doing 3, 4 or 5 rax after CC openings would add anything at all. I've added as much detail as possible.
EDIT: Another quick thought; would chronoboost usage come into the thought process behind this? e.g.
1gas, no chronoboost (fast expand [3rax])
1gas, lots of chronoboost (4gate? [4rax])
I'm not sure what we could gather as far as tech goes from chronoboost, but perhaps banking chronoboost may be useful for double forge openings? Discuss!
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Just to tack on, I saw Polt use an 8 rax (no gas) after CC build to punish a player who was teching too quickly. It was incredibly bizarre and I'm not sure why it would work out exactly other than the gas is tight for the protoss so they skimp on sentries and eventually you overwhelm them before their teching pays off. That could also be decent against the 3 nexus greedy styles that you often see now. It was on ladder against a KR GM toss, so I suppose it's worth looking into.
My opinion is that the best way to make a decision is to scan the natural for gas timings and possibly peek at units/production. Typically it's pretty hard to make a proper choice, but that seems to work reasonably well.
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The important thing is the expandtion timing and whether he has 1 or 2 Gas. Aggainst a 2 Gas protss i would allways go 4 Rax. Your economy should be better than your opponent and if he does a sentry expand you can pressure him with your first 12 Marines and either do a lot of damage if he was to greedy or to bad or you can trade some your Marines for some sentries/stalker and you did a good trade in the beginning and slow his tech down. In the other way, when he has enough units to stop your pressure, you are also fine because his tech will also be delayed. The thing is the faster you get your raxes, the more pressure you can put on your opponent in the midgame stage and that´s the most critical timing when protoss wants to get his 3rd. With 4 Raxes you are also quite fine aggainst allins. Imo a fith Rax before teching to Medivacs is a little bit too safe and can hurt you more than help.
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I do a 1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax Medivac -> 5 Rax -> 3rd CC
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the number of rax should be choosen on how easy the natural is to defend.
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4 rax if u want to go mass marine and go for an early attack (attack with 12-16 marines)and if there is not a small ramp
3 rax fast teech , if there is a tiny ramp and if u want to go fast tech
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On March 04 2012 00:38 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Just to tack on, I saw Polt use an 8 rax (no gas) after CC build to punish a player who was teching too quickly. It was incredibly bizarre and I'm not sure why it would work out exactly other than the gas is tight for the protoss so they skimp on sentries and eventually you overwhelm them before their teching pays off. That could also be decent against the 3 nexus greedy styles that you often see now. It was on ladder against a KR GM toss, so I suppose it's worth looking into.
My opinion is that the best way to make a decision is to scan the natural for gas timings and possibly peek at units/production. Typically it's pretty hard to make a proper choice, but that seems to work reasonably well.
This might work in a game here or there, but I don't think it's a solid playstyle. It's not like you can 8rax every game and expect to win, it's too allin.
On March 04 2012 02:45 Sianos wrote:
The important thing is the expandtion timing and whether he has 1 or 2 Gas. Aggainst a 2 Gas protss i would allways go 4 Rax. Your economy should be better than your opponent and if he does a sentry expand you can pressure him with your first 12 Marines and either do a lot of damage if he was to greedy or to bad or you can trade some your Marines for some sentries/stalker and you did a good trade in the beginning and slow his tech down. In the other way, when he has enough units to stop your pressure, you are also fine because his tech will also be delayed. The thing is the faster you get your raxes, the more pressure you can put on your opponent in the midgame stage and that´s the most critical timing when protoss wants to get his 3rd. With 4 Raxes you are also quite fine aggainst allins. Imo a fith Rax before teching to Medivacs is a little bit too safe and can hurt you more than help.
I also agree 5rax is a bit TOO safe. I think your points on 2gas are really interesting though.
On March 04 2012 02:53 deathtrance wrote:
I do a 1 Rax FE -> 3 Rax Medivac -> 5 Rax -> 3rd CC
did you read the OP?
On March 04 2012 03:00 freetgy wrote:
the number of rax should be choosen on how easy the natural is to defend.
That seems somewhat irrelevant though? Bunkers do that, and the differences between naturals are very minor. Granted, I would accept you could perhaps get away with 2rax tech on a very safe map, but that's being greedy as opposed to playing standard/punishing a protoss. Equally, a seemingly safe natural for a protoss would make you think you ought to tech, but generally a safe map is one a player plays greedy on, and early sentries with no backup units could take huge damage to a 4rax.
On March 04 2012 03:06 Killmouse wrote:
4 rax if u want to go mass marine and go for an early attack (attack with 12-16 marines)and if there is not a small ramp
3 rax fast teech , if there is a tiny ramp and if u want to go fast tech
Kind of the same as above, but I think you're simplifying it too much. I'm trying to play my builds in reaction to what my enemy is doing, not what the map says. If it's so easily defendable, I'd just 15CC every game!
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I can't say I've had a ton of practice with 3rax, but one game I lost to a simple 3gate/robo pressure. I feel 3rax is too much tech, not enough units. 4 rax OTOH, way more marines, possible early pressure, tech still comes along at an OK pace. IMHO of course
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I watch Demuslim's stream a bunch and his standard TvP is 1 Rax FE into 3 extra Rax. So that would be a total of 4 Rax before tech. He doesn't change the number of Rax he builds based upon what he scouts. Instead, he changes when he decides to get addons. Scout expo? -> Early addons, more Marauders. Scout pressure? -> Late addons, more Marines.
I think this makes a lot of sense because if the P is going for a late 1 base or early 2 base timing, extra MM won't help much because we are always limited by the surface area inside our choke. Especially with offensive forcefields. At that point we need Medivacs in order to escape the contain and reapply pressure to the P.
I've also noticed that Demuslim only does the 6:15 scan if he thinks there is a possibility of 1 base Robo. I think that makes sense too, because Marines+Bunkers+Medivacs can repel all 1-base Gateway/Stargate/Twilight timings easy even when they go unscouted.
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If you make 5 rax it is not only for cheese defence. You can apply a really strong marine pressure at their base between 7-8 minutes, esp good if your on a map where you can circle around the XC tower. I saw marine king doing it and then you throw down two gas and get the infantry upgrades and go for later tech. Works pretty well on ST or AS for example.
I would say that 4rax is effective for cheese defence, but I feel like it delays your medivacs and reduces your ability to do pressure if they do expand , you can do like a 9minute pressure but the current metagame is really early 8.5-9min collosus so it hasnt been working for me too well whereas the 5rax marine only pressure has.
3rax is for medivac pressure plain and simple, best on easy to defend maps. You CAN defend any cheese with only 3rax is just tougher because your macro, reactions and micro has to be good against some all-ins.
There is little useful you can figure out at 6:15 except for a 1base which will leaev you no time to react, you are better off scanning between 7.5-8 minutes to look for 2base allins.
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4 rax is probably the best one in my opinion. In master on NA, all these protoss try these dumb 2 base gateway immortal pressures. With 4rax, you easily stop their pressure and then crush them the second stim and medivacs finish.
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depends on how you want to play. 3 rax means faster tech. 4 rax is safer but you should be aggressive with it. and 5 rax is to just kill a super greedy protoss
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On March 04 2012 00:29 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
I see 2 forms of scouting to base our decisions on.
x: (y [z]) where x = what we see, y = what we can assume, z = our reaction
Initial scv scout sees the following:
1 gas: (could be fast expo, could be 4gate [3rax for the first, 4/5 rax for second?])
2 gas: (could be cheese [5rax], fast tech [4rax], or sentry heavy, expand into tech, bad economy management [3/4rax?])
i dont understand this notation, could someone explain it to me???
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4 rax is super safe, doesn't really put you behind too much on tech, but 3 rax is also pretty good because you don't lose to stupid timings (other than mass gateway)
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3 rax is standard for then teching medivacs and hitting that 10 minute timing. 4 rax is a power build where you will hit with just units really and no tech.
do not push marines off 4 rax unless you scout really really fast tech like 1 gate expand into robo. If he did a 1 gate expand into 3 gate ur 4 rax marine will get crushed and now you have less units for ur actual timing, which leaves you really fucked cause now u have no tech and no units.
5 rax is borderline all in.
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EPT
