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On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z?
Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important.
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On February 23 2012 16:31 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z? Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important.
The same 6 min speedling allin is just as capable of killing a 1 gate expand as a FFE. Like FFE it comes down to building placement and unit control. Just changing the build does not solve the problem in this post at all.
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On March 05 2012 23:39 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 16:31 jcroisdale wrote:On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z? Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important. The same 6 min speedling allin is just as capable of killing a 1 gate expand as a FFE. Like FFE it comes down to building placement and unit control. Just changing the build does not solve the problem in this post at all.
I totally disagree wit hgoing for a gate 1 expo which solve the problem. It just comes down to having the right building placement and leaving a probe there in-case.
Also when you see a zerg getting gas you should send a probe out at a certain timing to check if theres an all-in coming.
Sending 1 probe maybe getting 5 minerals less each time but holding the all-in which gives you a huge advantage after, is worthy it. Also it doesn't get you behind if the zerg is going 3 base, you have to scout if he goes 3 base or tech anyways.
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Always wall in the choke if possible, not wall in around Nexus.
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Austria24420 Posts
I would be careful with going Nexus first on certain maps. On 2 player maps I'd generally never do it unless you see a really no gas / hatch first. But a standard FFE works just fine, wall in with nexus as part of your wall and you'll be fine. I've only FFE'd on Korhal and never had any problems with it even though there were roach ling all ins and other types of cheese. Just scout well and if you see early gas you shouldn't nexus first on smaller / 2 player maps.
Keep the probe alive and check the natural always. If zergs doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas.
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On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zergs doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas.
A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min.
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I would simply 1gate FE on that map tbh, and it is a terrible map to play protoss on anyway.
1gate FE into +1 sentry/immortal all-in is probably what I would do.
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Austria24420 Posts
On March 06 2012 00:17 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zerg doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas. A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min.
In that case the hatch is super late already. You should expect hard pressure and react as if it were an all in, especially if you scouted early gas. Actually around the 6 minute mark you should know exactly what your opponent is up to. By that time a possible 3rd is already long taken. If they're not doing that, expect them to either pressure or tech hard. In both cases, just prepare with cannons and sentries while keeping in mind that you should maybe do a six gate push if the pressure doesn't come.
Really speedling expands have fallen out of fashion for a reason. The hatch is super late and it's too easy to prepare for. Late hatch means pressure / all in. If that pressure fails, the zerg is already behind for investing in something that didn't work + cutting drones.
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Here's MC's wallin at top position done by me
From MC's stream, his wallin
And done by me:
1st main pylon
Forge
Cannon
2nd Pylon
Important things: the main pylon position! It must be perfect otherwise the cannon can't get into the perfect position covering the whole wallin.
P.S I used the cheat "moredotsmoredots" to do the wallin faster, so don't mind the strange supply numbers
P.S2 I forgot to take a screenshot of the gateway position so just know that the main pylon should be completely blocked
edit: ugh... tinypic looks awful using the img tag so instead I'll use the url tag, well sry :/
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On March 06 2012 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 00:17 MstrJinbo wrote:On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zerg doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas. A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min. In that case the hatch is super late already. You should expect hard pressure and react as if it were an all in, especially if you scouted early gas. Actually around the 6 minute mark you should know exactly what your opponent is up to. By that time a possible 3rd is already long taken. If they're not doing that, expect them to either pressure or tech hard. In both cases, just prepare with cannons and sentries while keeping in mind that you should maybe do a six gate push if the pressure doesn't come. Really speedling expands have fallen out of fashion for a reason. The hatch is super late and it's too easy to prepare for. Late hatch means pressure / all in. If that pressure fails, the zerg is already behind for investing in something that didn't work + cutting drones.
That's kind of the point of speedling expand. Most of the time the Zerg will pull drones off gas after metabolic boost and just macro like normal. Its slightly worse economically than a gasless FE but if the Protoss overreacts and builds extra cannons it is good for the Zerg. The gas allows the Zerg to potentially allin so the Protoss needs to be on top of their scouting and account for that.
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FFE wall-in on korhal is very easy. Just this morning I held off a roach all-in with speedlings. I walled a bit closer to the ramp than the pictures above and had 3 cannons down as soon as I scouted the early roach warren. Three forcefields later he had no raoches and my voidray was headed over to his natural with a phoenix close behind and he left the game as soon as I lifted the queen. Smooth as butter.
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EPT
