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Hello, I just played a PvZ on Korhal Compound LE. Here is what happened:
- I Nexus first safely, he goes for speedling expo (21H)
- I probe up, get my gateway, cyber and 2 cannons cover my mineral line
- He runs in with a TON of speedlings at around 6 minute mark and bypasses the natural into my main
- As my WG is not done and I don't have enough probes, I lose my main and eventually the game
That being said, what could I have done better to prevent this? I tried scouting with a second probe, it got denied. I could not save my main. I 5-gated afterwards because I had to do damage, he was way ahead (42 drones to my 30 probes by the time I had a decent army).
No way I could have won that game.
What could I have done better to counter this? How could I have won?
Any help or insight will be appreciated! Thanks!
Replay attached:
http://drop.sc/115948
EDIT: I'm a high-diamond Protoss player if that helps 
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Dude, you had no wall-in! Why don't you close the front?
Your sim city was really bad and resulted in the ling action inside your main!
Just learn to build a good wall (watch pro replays on how to do that) and you should be fine.
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That was a problem I had when I started FFEing... What I do now is wall off the outside of the ramp when lings threaten to run by. They should retreat after that happens and you can cancel it and pretend nothing ever happened.
I'm actually lower in ladder rank than you but meh, it works for me.
Edit: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/urBed.jpg)
This works wonders for me. Denies just about any ling run-by. I don't see how that will change even if you toss me into GM league... You can even leave a zealot there to deny run-bys.
Edit 2: You can't do that sim-city on MLG and other tourney maps though!
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On February 20 2012 13:24 M1cha84 wrote:
Dude, you had no wall-in! Why don't you close the front?
Your sim city was really bad and resulted in the ling action inside your main!
Just learn to build a good wall (watch pro replays on how to do that) and you should be fine.
You do realize that you can't effectively full-wall on this map right?
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You can't full-wall, but plug the hole with your zealot. Make sure to hold position.
Try keeping a probe ready to drop a pylon or gateway to make it a full wall-off if needed.
EDIT: Wait... doesn't that screenie'd wall-in let you run straight into the main? O_O
My suggestion is to incorporate your initial pylon as part of the wall-in (right by the ramp, by the forge in the screenie posted earlier). Yeah, I know its flimsy, but you can always put a pylon in the back so you don't get Artosis'd.
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you CAN full wall and you CAN do a wall with a gap for zealot, I advise either of these over the one pictured above, I will update with a screen as soon as i switch my comp
Wall-off with gap for zealot (My wall off of choice)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mcwR8.jpg)
Complete wall-off with no gap (Both cannon and pylon vulnerable to banes!)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bp7op.jpg)
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this map you need another pylon then you'll have a gap big enough for a zealot.. if he tries to baneling bust you, just put another gateway down behind the gap and you'll be fine. So 2 things here, make the wall across with a pylon and zealot, and secondly, chronoboost out a zealot or 2 immediately after your gateway finishes warping in. I'm surprised you've survived against all sorts of early busts without doing that as default..
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wall at the front with forge pylon gateway cybercore zealot, what i do is that i make the pylon 3 blocks to the side of the ramp to fit in the forge and power more area for the rest of the buildings in case i need an emergency wall for some sort of early pool, the pylon will be a weak point of the wall but not a big deal with proper scouting
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- He runs in with a TON of speedlings at around 6 minute mark and bypasses the natural into my main
I wonder what is the reason for at 6 mark you have not your wall up :S work your sim city around the ramp
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I'm a master protoss and ppl are giving weird tips for you... I guess the guy who posted the pic with full wall-off with zealot and 4 cannons behind has to be a troll xD. And no, you don't need a sentry at 6 minute mark and you don't have to put a zealot on hold position on your ramp. With fast enough reaction time you should be able to block the ramp into your main base and after that select your probes at natural and surround the cannon so that lings can't attack it. But the most important thing that you missed was the scouting. You said: "I tried scouting with a second probe, it got denied." Well I didn't see that but I guess you tried to leave from your base when lings where in front of your ramp... That's not how to do it. I send my 2nd probe before the lings arrive (usually after the cannon has been started). Hide it and scout at 5 minutes and you should have been easily able to see some lings and prepare to defend the runby. For example roach all-in could have killed you in this game... And make a zealot pretty early and when it is finished you should take some map control with it, kill the ling in front of your base and take xelnaga towers. This zealot would have seen all the lings zerg had :/
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On February 20 2012 13:26 ctypewriter wrote:That was a problem I had when I started FFEing... What I do now is wall off the outside of the ramp when lings threaten to run by. They should retreat after that happens and you can cancel it and pretend nothing ever happened. I'm actually lower in ladder rank than you but meh, it works for me. Edit: This works wonders for me. Denies just about any ling run-by. I don't see how that will change even if you toss me into GM league... You can even leave a zealot there to deny run-bys. Edit 2: You can't do that sim-city on MLG and other tourney maps though!
This is the best wall off on this map, because it is easy to block off the main and dosnt use a pylon in the wall, if you ever use a pylon in the wall, expect to be banling busted by any decent zerg that knows how to deviate from his original plan.
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On February 20 2012 13:46 AGIANTSMURF wrote:you CAN full wall and you CAN do a wall with a gap for zealot, I advise either of these over the one pictured above, I will update with a screen as soon as i switch my comp Wall-off with gap for zealot (My wall off of choice) Complete wall-off with no gap (Both cannon and pylon vulnerable to banes!)
This is a terrible wall if i roach bust this looking at the timing on your game clock my 7 roachs and 6 lings are going to arrive 10 seconds before your cannons finish. also the back 3 cannons are usless against a roach rush. i snipe the first cannon and then I can just pick off your gateway cybercore and forge for free, then i can continue to all in and win. or just mass expand cause you cant attack with no tech.
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I have to agree with above post, the wall looks pretty easy to bust
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Work on simcity. Get at least 3 sentries "every" game you play FFE.
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On February 20 2012 23:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Work on simcity. Get at least 3 sentries "every" game you play FFE.
I felt my simcity was pretty decent, although I didnt do a full-wall as AGIANTSMURF showed. However, I do agree that a full full wall would leave my cyber and and pylons too vulnerable to a roach bust.
Did you even watch the replay? Lings ran in at 6 minutes, I had no time to even get 1 sentry, which wouldn't help.
Please try to watch the replay before commenting guys...
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but thanks for the tips so far everyone, they're pretty helpful!
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On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO)
Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover
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On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover
Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in.
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On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in.
Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)?
I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically.
Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z?
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On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z?
Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important.
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On February 23 2012 16:31 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z? Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important.
The same 6 min speedling allin is just as capable of killing a 1 gate expand as a FFE. Like FFE it comes down to building placement and unit control. Just changing the build does not solve the problem in this post at all.
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On March 05 2012 23:39 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 16:31 jcroisdale wrote:On February 22 2012 13:46 LOLZEY wrote:On February 21 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On February 21 2012 10:12 Lobotomist wrote:On February 20 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:
You should have Sentries by that point in time. Forcefields are your friend.
(I wouldn't FFE on this map. FFE that use the Nexus as part of the wall are horrible IMO) Why are walls that include the nexus horrible? it's not like it's easy to kill, unless there's a huge area that cannons don't cover Having a wall-in with a nexus is not always bad, on a map like Metalopolis it's better to use the nexus as part of wall for a forge FFE. But as the person you quoted said that on this map specifically FFE is not the best idea. I find that its very hard to hold a roach all-in on this with either any FFE regardless of the Wall-in style if you wall in with the nexus then any cannons you make to stop a roach all-in are too vulnerable while if you make a complete wall in at the front you still have a lot of problems with the different type of roach all-ins and possible baneling bust if you use part of a pylon for the wall-in. Which builds would be most effective on maps like these then (where you can't full wall/ full wall too vulnerable)? I nexus first as my standard BO on maps that allow full-walloffs like Shakuras, and I feel that this is pretty the safest way to not fall behind economically. Are there any builds out there that allow P both map control and economically-matching Z? Your only choice on this map would be 1gate expo. You could do some 3gate pressure or 2gates and a stargate but most zergs can stop each of these fairly well and any units you have early game as Toss are very important. The same 6 min speedling allin is just as capable of killing a 1 gate expand as a FFE. Like FFE it comes down to building placement and unit control. Just changing the build does not solve the problem in this post at all.
I totally disagree wit hgoing for a gate 1 expo which solve the problem. It just comes down to having the right building placement and leaving a probe there in-case.
Also when you see a zerg getting gas you should send a probe out at a certain timing to check if theres an all-in coming.
Sending 1 probe maybe getting 5 minerals less each time but holding the all-in which gives you a huge advantage after, is worthy it. Also it doesn't get you behind if the zerg is going 3 base, you have to scout if he goes 3 base or tech anyways.
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Always wall in the choke if possible, not wall in around Nexus.
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Austria24422 Posts
I would be careful with going Nexus first on certain maps. On 2 player maps I'd generally never do it unless you see a really no gas / hatch first. But a standard FFE works just fine, wall in with nexus as part of your wall and you'll be fine. I've only FFE'd on Korhal and never had any problems with it even though there were roach ling all ins and other types of cheese. Just scout well and if you see early gas you shouldn't nexus first on smaller / 2 player maps.
Keep the probe alive and check the natural always. If zergs doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas.
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On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zergs doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas.
A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min.
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I would simply 1gate FE on that map tbh, and it is a terrible map to play protoss on anyway.
1gate FE into +1 sentry/immortal all-in is probably what I would do.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 06 2012 00:17 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zerg doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas. A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min.
In that case the hatch is super late already. You should expect hard pressure and react as if it were an all in, especially if you scouted early gas. Actually around the 6 minute mark you should know exactly what your opponent is up to. By that time a possible 3rd is already long taken. If they're not doing that, expect them to either pressure or tech hard. In both cases, just prepare with cannons and sentries while keeping in mind that you should maybe do a six gate push if the pressure doesn't come.
Really speedling expands have fallen out of fashion for a reason. The hatch is super late and it's too easy to prepare for. Late hatch means pressure / all in. If that pressure fails, the zerg is already behind for investing in something that didn't work + cutting drones.
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Here's MC's wallin at top position done by me
From MC's stream, his wallin
And done by me:
1st main pylon
Forge
Cannon
2nd Pylon
Important things: the main pylon position! It must be perfect otherwise the cannon can't get into the perfect position covering the whole wallin.
P.S I used the cheat "moredotsmoredots" to do the wallin faster, so don't mind the strange supply numbers
P.S2 I forgot to take a screenshot of the gateway position so just know that the main pylon should be completely blocked
edit: ugh... tinypic looks awful using the img tag so instead I'll use the url tag, well sry :/
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On March 06 2012 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 00:17 MstrJinbo wrote:On March 06 2012 00:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:
If zerg doesn't have their hatch down around 20 supply, they're all in. In that case, throw up a million cannons and chrono out sentries as fast as you can.
A standard speedling expand should never be a problem, just don't Nexus first if you scout early gas. A great many Zerg Allins take the hatch in the natural. The one described by the op is a speedling expand 14 g 14 p 21 h. Drones are cut when the pool finishes and a ton of zerglings are morphed and attack at about 6 min. In that case the hatch is super late already. You should expect hard pressure and react as if it were an all in, especially if you scouted early gas. Actually around the 6 minute mark you should know exactly what your opponent is up to. By that time a possible 3rd is already long taken. If they're not doing that, expect them to either pressure or tech hard. In both cases, just prepare with cannons and sentries while keeping in mind that you should maybe do a six gate push if the pressure doesn't come. Really speedling expands have fallen out of fashion for a reason. The hatch is super late and it's too easy to prepare for. Late hatch means pressure / all in. If that pressure fails, the zerg is already behind for investing in something that didn't work + cutting drones.
That's kind of the point of speedling expand. Most of the time the Zerg will pull drones off gas after metabolic boost and just macro like normal. Its slightly worse economically than a gasless FE but if the Protoss overreacts and builds extra cannons it is good for the Zerg. The gas allows the Zerg to potentially allin so the Protoss needs to be on top of their scouting and account for that.
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FFE wall-in on korhal is very easy. Just this morning I held off a roach all-in with speedlings. I walled a bit closer to the ramp than the pictures above and had 3 cannons down as soon as I scouted the early roach warren. Three forcefields later he had no raoches and my voidray was headed over to his natural with a phoenix close behind and he left the game as soon as I lifted the queen. Smooth as butter.
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EPT
