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In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm going to get a few things out of the way before I start:
i. I'm not an upper league player
ii. this guide contains my suggestions, which have nothing to recommend them save any good sense you observe therein
iii. none of the facts utilized in the approach below were discovered by me
iv. I'm posting this guide because I think it covers some little-discussed topics and presents an elegant methodology
iv. while I've never seen another zerg play this way, I'm not claiming to be the first, nor do I expect credit for the notion or any similar nonsense
Ok then. On to the content...
Handling Eggs Efficiently
This guide is about handling your larva and eggs in a specific way, in order to avoid or simplify other tasks throughout the game. More specifically, the point of playing this way is minimize or eliminate:
- units idling at rally points,
- overlords clustered in inappropriate locations
- difficulty re-rallying reinforcements in transit or still in production
- solutions to any of the above which involve moving the camera
In order to execute the approach below, you would make use of a number of facts. None are new or extraordinarily subtle, but to keep everyone on the same page, here are many of the relevant facts:
- morphing eggs can be added to control groups, and can have individual rally points
- larva can also be added to control groups, but cannot have a rally point (and thus are unaffected when setting a rally point for a mixed group of eggs and larva)
- rally points are (re)set when their group recieves a right-click command, including one issued via the minimap, but aren't effected by a-click commands
- ctrl-clicking one of the unit portraits in the group selection frame will remove all units of a different unit type from the selection (ie "only these ones")
- shift-ctrl-clicking one of the unit portraits in the group selection frame will remove all units of the same unit type from your current selection (ie "without these ones")
- for the purposes of the above (and similar), eggs count as their own unit type, and eggs always count as the same unit type regardless of what they contain
- selecting your larva via your hatcheries (obviously) never selects any eggs... an easy way to start a fresh group of eggs that doesn't involve the eggs in your current selection
So, in order to best leverage the above facts, you might spend your larva in the following manner:
- build all of the units you intend to give the same rally point to or to put in the same control group
- issue a rally point to the group (if required)
- ctrl-click the eggs in the group, then add them to the appropriate hotkey (if required)
- reselect your larva via your hatcheries and repeat
When doing so, there is no longer any special need to re-visit these units seperately in order to manage them.
Pending reinforcements for a given group can be given updated rally locations as part of controlling the group itself... add a right-click immediately before a-clicking for long big repositions and reinforcements will always head directly for your army.
Reinforcements in transit recieve the same commands as the rest of the group as soon as they hatch, keeping them up to date without effort and often switching them to an attack command en route as a bonus (useful if rallyjacked).
Hatching overlords proceed directly to a either spotting location or safe one rather than to your front.
Rolling this into your "spend larva" macro task eliminates the need for a "clean up rally point" macro task.
Mentally planning out what you want to make with a batch of larva before using it assists with managing supply; it becomes natural to think something like "ok I have 13 larva and I'm building roaches, that'll use up 20-25 supply so I want 3 of it to be overlords." Always do overlords first!
Keeping on top of all this without panning around is huge.
As a quick example of how this feels, imagine it's early game ZvT. You've just poked up his ramp and seen a reactored factory with 2 hellions behind the wall. An extractor is nearing finished. Your injects just popped off and you have 11 larva available. I'd probably do something that looked like:
select hatcheries -> select larva (ie, 4s)
build 1 overlord
right-click minimap
select hatcheries -> select larva
build 5 pairs of zerglings
ctrl-click the eggs and add them to group 1
select hatcheries -> select larva
build 3 drones
right-click extractor
select hatcheries -> select larva
build 2 drones
select group 1 and right-click them to near my spine crawler
Now none of this needs to be dealt with again,
For a pro game example where this seems like it would have been really beneficial, see game 4 of Ret vs WhiteRa at ASUS ROG november (tal'darim). Watch the big broodlord push starting around 21 minutes from Ret's point of view... and every time he pans away to grab a hydralisk, re-watch the same period of time looking at the battle. It's absolutely painful. At one point WhiteRa blinks forward while Ret is scrolling away to get a hydra; his zerglings are on hold position and some of his broods are hitting a robo while 3 of them are sniped. A little later, somewhat past the point when they might have really helped, Ret finds 20 lings that have been sitting under an overlord cloud at a disused rally point since he moved out. Later still, he finds 10 more where there used to be a hatchery... it died while they were morphing so they just stayed where they'd hatched. His control and his army presence were both *significantly* impacted. And while the game is probably over anyway at that point, Ret later gg's when WhiteRa's stalkers bump into the 30(!) unguarded overlords near the bottom of his natural ramp
edit:
A lot of people seem to raise points concerning the various ways that using this technique can lead to rallying reinforcements through enemy units.
While this can happen, I personally feel that the optimal way to play around this danger is to expand on your use of this technique, not to abandon it. To illustrate what I mean, I'm going to share here some of my personal techniques for handling these sorts of situations; I feel they are solid and recommendeable, but I post them mainly as example ideas.
1) right-click near your army, then shift-a-click to move it
+ Show Spoiler +For example: you're playing bottom position on xel'naga caverns. Your opponent has static defense at his gold. You have a control group (let's say roaches) sitting on the left tower, including some units still in eggs as well as some units walking up from your hatcheries. You want to attack his natural.
Right-click the tower your roaches are at, then queue up an attack move towards his natural. Your roaches at the tower will simply a-move, but your eggs will be rallied to the tower, and your reinforcements will go to the tower (and around the gold expansion) before moving up to join your army.
2) box or ctrl-click the units actually present
+ Show Spoiler +So simple it should seem obvious: issue the "safe" commands to the whole control group, then select the units already in place before issuing further commands. In the first example, you might box the roaches on your screen immediately after issuing the queue'd a-click, ready to control them as they fight... or ready to re-select the whole control group for more broad repositioning.
Similarly, if I plan to dance my muta flock back and forth across a cliff, I'll usually right-click the control group to the "safe" side, then ctrl-click the mutas (deselecting the eggs) before moving them across. Then when I see fresh mutas arriving, I simply re-select the control group to add them to the fun.
3) make a new control group
+ Show Spoiler +Another thing that probably seems bonehead obvious, if I *really* don't want the units I'm building to try to join up with any of my control groups (perhaps there are seiged tanks in between), I simply start a new control group. Genius strategy? Maybe not, but at least I can see what's waiting at my rally point with the tap of a key, send them in without minimapping around, or add them into an existing control group once that becomes safe.
If you find you run out of army hotkeys, I recommend using alt-1 through alt-5 as alternate binds for 0 through 6 (you can also set shift-alt-# and ctrl-alt-# for adding or making groups on these numbers. Just don't make alt-binds for camera hotkeys... trust me, you will accidentally alt-F4).
Hopefully I've provided some food for thought!
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brilliant! ive been doing the same thing, and just finally incorporated stuff like rallying my mutas to a safe position then A moving the rest of them while im harassing. i agree ive never seen pro players use it yet, but i always thought it was sort of an obivous thing that will catch on sooner or later.
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This might be nitpicking. But it would probably to be easier to do:
Select hatchery(ies)
Select Larva
Rather than just Select larva. Since it's easier to hit 4 S rather than move ur mouse to the wireframe and hit ctrl+click
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On January 11 2012 07:03 nobuild wrote:
brilliant! ive been doing the same thing, and just finally incorporated stuff like rallying my mutas to a safe position then A moving the rest of them while im harassing. i agree ive never seen pro players use it yet, but i always thought it was sort of an obivous thing that will catch on sooner or later.
Stephano and Dimaga are notorious for using this since forever.
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On January 11 2012 07:07 darkrage14 wrote:
This might be nitpicking. But it would probably to be easier to do:
Select hatchery(ies)
Select Larva
Rather than just Select larva. Since it's easier to hit 4 S rather than move ur mouse to the wireframe and hit ctrl+click
This is what I do. I'll update the OP to be more clear.
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I do use this, but for discussion's sake I'll mention some drawbacks:
1. In some situations the amount of units in eggs or running towards the battle outnumber the number of units. The problem is if you jump back to your base to build something, then want to jump to your army, it won't center on your army but rather the largest clump of units on the map.
2. Particularly with mutas you don't want to rally over places where enemy AA may be present.
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can someone give me more info on this ctrl click thing.
Lets a have 2 infestors on ctrl group 3 and build 3 more, your saying I hit 5s (larva) make 3 infestors and then while the eggs are on the larva page hit ctrl 3? to add them?
Do they walk to the control group of units once the hatch or do I have to task a move coomand to them first?
Master zerg and I obviously dont know basics =(
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can someone give me more info on this ctrl click thing.
Lets a have 2 infestors on ctrl group 3 and build 3 more, your saying I hit 5s (larva) make 3 infestors and then while the eggs are on the larva page hit ctrl 3? to add them?
Do they walk to the control group of units once the hatch or do I have to task a move coomand to them first?
Master zerg and I obviously dont know basics =(
The answer is that so long as they are in the same group once hatched they will obey the same commands as the rest of the group automatically but they stay at the hatchery if not rallied until a command to that control group is given.
My one comment about this that has kept me from implementing is that I group my hatcheries on one hotkey so it is not always clear at which hatchery a particular type of unit is built which makes it difficult to CTR add eggs to the right group. What is your solution for this...do you simply tab through hatcheries individually when building units or do you select all larva at the same time. Also for mid-level players that do not have much APM this is actually a little more difficult in terms of the macro mechanic even though its an advantage in terms of unit management. For myself I find that I tend to start the game utilizing this but have to abandon it the further I get through the game as it becomes more APM intensive. I suppose the solution is simply playing more games and improving my APM/management skills.
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can someone give me more info on this ctrl click thing.
Lets a have 2 infestors on ctrl group 3 and build 3 more, your saying I hit 5s (larva) make 3 infestors and then while the eggs are on the larva page hit ctrl 3? to add them?
Do they walk to the control group of units once the hatch or do I have to task a move coomand to them first?
Master zerg and I obviously dont know basics =(
You make the infestors, control click the eggs on the unit selection page (you can skip this if you used up all of your larvae) and then add them to the control group with shift+x (where x is your desired group). Once that's done, any move command that you give to that control group will also rally those eggs to that position.
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On January 11 2012 07:28 Parodoxx wrote:
can someone give me more info on this ctrl click thing.
Lets a have 2 infestors on ctrl group 3 and build 3 more, your saying I hit 5s (larva) make 3 infestors and then while the eggs are on the larva page hit ctrl 3? to add them?
Do they walk to the control group of units once the hatch or do I have to task a move coomand to them first?
Master zerg and I obviously dont know basics =(
If you had 9 larva total, it'd look like so: (L for larva, F for infestor, e for egg)
(3) => you now have group 3 selected, which looks like:
[F][F][F]
(5s) => your group selection frame looks like this:
[L][L][L][L][L][L][L][L]
[L]
(fff) => now you see this:
[e][e][e][L][L][L][L][L]
[L]
(ctrl-click on "[e]") => your group selection frame now looks like:
[e][e][e]
(shift-3) => now your infestor eggs are in control group 3
(3) => you now have group 3 selected, which looks like this:
[F][F][F][e][e][e]
(right-click somewhere) => your 3 infestors move to "somewhere", and the rally point for your 3 eggs is set to "somewhere"
(a-click somewhere else) => your 3 infestors attack-move to "somewhere else", but the rally point for your 3 eggs remains at "somewhere"
Units do not exactly "walk to the control group when they hatch", but their rally point gets updated whenever you move-command the control group, and while they're on their way to the rally point they recieve commands normally when you control the rest of the group.
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I started doing this after seeing stephano's stream. It looked more complicated at first, but once you get used to it you realize most of the actions you're adding are mouse clicks that you line up while your other hand hits 4sv, 4sd, 4sz.
Using this as well as adding a camera location hotkey (I use W) and getting into the habit of setting/resetting it every time you right click to move your hatchery rallies made managing reinforcements super flexible and almost effortless. If you don't want to rally eggs to the rest of the units (ex: mutas harassing with turrets/marines between them and your base) or don't have time for ctrl-clicking as you're spending your larva then you can snap to your hatchery rally later and add them from there without any screen dragging or minimap clicking.
Now I cringe when I see really good zergs who drag their screen around furiously boxing units as they rally in from 4 different directions mid-fight or lose games because they rallied slow overlords to one spot the entire game. 
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i play random in team games and i do this as zerg as well.
this is actually the reason why i think its soooo nice as zerg to manage control grps. nothing easier than adding units to your grps while they are still mophing.
i do that also with my drones. i always set my eco rally point of each hatch to the corresponding minerals. when building drones i manually divide them to the mineral lines where they are needed (or gases).
i really wonder how many pro gamers this use. its a really big advantage of zerg.
one problem with is if you forget to assign them to a its kind of harder to remember those units ^^ since your not checking your rally point that often.
also if you accidently add "wrong" eggs to a grp. and if this grp already has eggs in it you cant seperate the "wrong" eggs without checking all the eggs or wait until they hatched. but if you dont make mistakes, this style is very nice
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On January 11 2012 07:47 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +can someone give me more info on this ctrl click thing.
Lets a have 2 infestors on ctrl group 3 and build 3 more, your saying I hit 5s (larva) make 3 infestors and then while the eggs are on the larva page hit ctrl 3? to add them?
Do they walk to the control group of units once the hatch or do I have to task a move coomand to them first?
Master zerg and I obviously dont know basics =( The answer is that so long as they are in the same group once hatched they will obey the same commands as the rest of the group automatically but they stay at the hatchery if not rallied until a command to that control group is given. My one comment about this that has kept me from implementing is that I group my hatcheries on one hotkey so it is not always clear at which hatchery a particular type of unit is built which makes it difficult to CTR add eggs to the right group. What is your solution for this...do you simply tab through hatcheries individually when building units or do you select all larva at the same time. Also for mid-level players that do not have much APM this is actually a little more difficult in terms of the macro mechanic even though its an advantage in terms of unit management. For myself I find that I tend to start the game utilizing this but have to abandon it the further I get through the game as it becomes more APM intensive. I suppose the solution is simply playing more games and improving my APM/management skills.
why does it matter where those units get morphed? most of the time it just doesnt matter, right?
so lets say your grp 1 are roach/hydra, grp 2 are infestors.... grp 4 are all hatches -->
- 4s, R,R,R,R,R.... now you have 5 eggs and rest larvae in your selection window.
- ctrl click the eggs (now only the eggs are selected... notice that you dont have to move the screen and you dont care where those eggs are).
- shift 1 and those eggs are added to your control grp 1. as long as you do not issure a MOVE command, the roaches will rally to your rally point (or the individual rally point of "their" hatchery if they might differ).
now you can hit 4s again and you selected the remaining larvae.
- F,F,F and you build 3 infestors. in your selection window are 3 eggs and rest larvae.
- ctrl click eggs and add them to grp 2 with shift 2.
most of the time you will want to issue a move command somewhere at least near the grp they belong to.
Oh and btw:
some of these functions can be used by protoss as well. warping units can be given a move command and they will act as if this was the rally point. i find this helpful for warping in reinforcements and they will walk immediately towards your army. i guess the "normal" way is to spam a command and when they finish warping in, they will start attack moving with the first attack command. i found it annoying when units stood around for some time if you didnt spam a move. just alternate move and a-move sometimes when they are still warping in (same as with eggs).
archons will rally to a move command as well.
you cant select the units like eggs but its no problem to ctrl click each unit type and either shift # them to their grp oder if you have already selected their grp shift-strl click them to add them to the current grp and hit ctrl # to save the grp again.
hope this isnt explained too weird ^^ it all makes sense in my head 
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On January 11 2012 07:27 zylog wrote:
I do use this, but for discussion's sake I'll mention some drawbacks:
1. In some situations the amount of units in eggs or running towards the battle outnumber the number of units. The problem is if you jump back to your base to build something, then want to jump to your army, it won't center on your army but rather the largest clump of units on the map.
2. Particularly with mutas you don't want to rally over places where enemy AA may be present.
I've done this for a long time as well. I always control click my eggs and add them to my control groups. There are definately some advantages, but overall I consider it to be a bad habit and I am actually trying to stop doing this.
Zylog hit it on the money with his first two but there's several other drawbacks as well.
Generally speaking I think it's a good idea to do this early game or if you have map control. However I think it's a bad idea to do this if you are defending or in the late game.
With this method you can no longer set individual rally points for each hatch (well you can but as soon as you move your control group it will override the rally point). So if there's a siege line cutting off the area between your natural and your 3rd, you're going to have a difficult time rallying your units to one place.
Another example where you would want a hatch to have it's own rally point is if you took a hidden expo or a distant base, you may end up accidentally revealing it because units will be streaming in from that area.
I think the biggest reason why I want to stop adding my eggs to control groups is because it hurts my macro. I tend to make a TON of 1 unit at a time where it may be optimal to make a few of each unit.
For example, I am microing some mutas and it's time to make additional units/drones. I want to do this as fast as possible so I can go back to microing my mutas. Lets say I want to make 4 drones, 6 zerglings, and 2 mutas. Using this method I would have to press 4sdddd, 4szzz control click the eggs and press shift 1 to add them into my zergling group, then 4stt control click the eggs and press shift 2 to add them to my muta group. Without using this method I would just press 4sddddzzzztt and then go back to microing. I would worry about grouping them later whenever I need to actually use those units.
It's a real pain in the ass to control click and shift add small amounts of each units to each control group every time you make them. This leads to me making 30 zerglings and adding them to my control group to save time rather than making a variety of units.
Finally, whenever you have to split your army (such as multi drops) it's actually easier if you didn't have all your units in their respective control groups. You can 1a your army to deal with one drop and then box whatever is left to deal with another. That way you can still use your 1st control group hotkey. If you split up a control group you can no longer micro that group using the hotkey.
Overall it is a nice trick to know, but I wouldn't do it once you get into the mid late game and you have a ton of things to do at once; I think it slows you down too much.
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the question is: how do you add those units to your control grp if you dont use control click on the eggs?
you go to the rally point and then?
i would say like everyone else (toss/terran) by either control clicking one unit of a type (or double click for that matter) and then shift # or you select your grp, control shift click on that type of unit and hit control # again.
am i missing something? is there an easier way? ^^
if not how is control clicking the eggs worse? you have to do the same "work" anyway
of course there are circumstances where you dont want to override your rally points. if they stand in the supply line as you mentioned for example. but is it really that hard to pay attention and NOT adding them as eggs in that moment?
and the disadvantage might as well be that your reinforcements could get picked up at their individual rally point. or as mentioned in the op: if you do not forget those units you always have to switch screens and add them as they spawn.
i guess in the end it up to the player what he prefers. i have seen some strange habbits of some players and it still worked ^^
whatever floats your boat, right? ^^
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I love putting eggs in the control group especially when you are aggressive. your units will just join the battle immediately (and none of the zerg units have spell like stim). And they won't die when you need to retreat because all you have to do is to retreat all of them from your control group.
However, there are several bad things that i know:
1. if there is some fight going on in another place and you need to split your units up asap, it is not easy. for the rally point method, all you have to do is to grab some from the rally point and go.
2. It is hard to stop them from streaming into your opponent's army if they lock up a choke point in your base, you can set different rally point with each hatchery, so they don't just stream into frowntown, but with the egg grouping, it is really hard to split the army again.
3. the muta problem. sometimes your reinforcements will just run into marines/phoenixes/mutas and die horribly.
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Dear Sir,
you just made my day. This is 100% brilliant. I will work very hard to incorporate this into my play until I next hit the find match button. There will never be idle units anymore.
Thank you.
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i prefer poached eggs.
User was warned for this post
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1534 Posts
I think Stephano does this i know he clicks his eggs into his control groups.
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Lots of pros do it, it's not as common as one could expect though. Personally I only use it in some situations, for example with muta, I always make sure to add the eggs to the control-group immediately since you always want them as massed as possible. I also often rally drones while they are in their eggs so I can have all my hatcheries rallied to my newest base and still keep my saturation when I build stuff.
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EPT
