EPTroaches 3 supply plox
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[D] The true cost of a Broodlord - Page 4
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
roaches 3 supply plox User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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StrikeNova
Canada47 Posts
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IAmSlide
United States18 Posts
On December 30 2011 06:34 Chocobo wrote: Broodlords cost a lot, especially considering that you're taking a serious risk to attempt to tech to them. I think hive tech upgrade and time should absolutely count, because it's very rare that you'll upgrade to hive for a reason other than broodlords. Starting with lair tech already, it costs 200/150 (100 sec) for Hive, 100/150 (100 sec) for G.Spire (and add on another 200/200 if you didn't already have a spire, sometimes the case vs protoss). Then 150/100 (40) for a corruptor and 150/150 (34) to morph to BL. Grand total investment, from the time you decided "I think I'll try getting some broodlords": 600 minerals, 550 gas, and 4 minutes 34 seconds. I don't agree with this at all. Brood lord build time and tech cost is pretty cheap compared to other races T3 air. Take the battlecruiser for instance. It is more expensive (400/300) and takes longer (90s). Add to that the Fusion core (150/150) and weapon refit (150/150). Not to mention that you need at least 2 starports (300/200) to produce them at a decent clip with the long build time. | ||
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Elefes
Russian Federation164 Posts
Future/Present Value are economical terms, etc. Whatever. If I get it right: BL DON'T cost 350/200, since you kinda invest 150/100 into Corruptor, and then morph BL whenever you think it's necessary. Later on in the game you have a much higher income, so casrificing 150/100 @15 minute mark is MUCH more expensive than doing so @25. Which means BL probably cost 150/100 + I2/I1* (150/150), where I1 = income rate @ when you morphed corr, I2 = income rate, when you morphed BL. Don't want to theorycraft, but I2 might be 1.5x or even 2x+ bigger then I1, which means the discounted cost of BL is probably closer to 225/175! Now compare that to toss: you get Collosus tech, and start producing them paying 300/200 for each, which means you have to delay other tech/upgrades/army for awhile. If I had an option to produce 'Lossus', which cost 150/100, instead getting more bases/army/uprgrades RIGHT NOW, and only then upgrade them into Collosus whenever I deside, I'd totally use that opportunity. Don't get me wrong, that's not whining))) It's just that due to the Zerg mechanics you can't estimate cost of buildings/units in FIXED terms. 'Real' cost doesn't matter that much for zerg, it's about opportunity cost (i.e. what should I sacrifice to do ABC right now). What's the cost of 7 roaches? Well it's cost of 7 not-freaking-mining drones, not the 7*75/25 lol. BL/Corruptors don't pop up when you starve for drones, so it's harded to explain, but hope I expressed my thoughts clearly. | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
they get mass roaches into mass mutas and keep the protoss busy (im protoss... so only talking about pvz) while teching to broodlords. if the protoss gets surprised by them the game ends right here. ^^ if he reacts correctly (whatever way) zerg has so many possibilities. most of the time they float in resources and bases. so then they might tech switch into ultra/zergling/infestor..... into roach/hydra and then mutas again :< i won so many games against zerg because he was on mutas all game long and tried to enforce it. you just mass blinkstalker/HTs and mass cannons... if he just had switched to ultra/zergling/infestors i would have lost my whole army. ok, that was kinda off topic. but my point is: i dont think its the cost why zerg go broodlords. its rather that if they get into play too surprisingly they are incredibly hard to counter (as they are as it is if they are supported from ground units). ultras on the other hand: the counter for them is already in the field (for protoss) and the infrastructure is well established: robo, ground upgrades, mass gates. DT/zealot to tank and immortals do an ridiculous amount of dmg on them. killing a decent broodlord army (10+) without air is almost impossible if the zerg is no moron :< ok, im not sure if this was an answer to the posed questions ^^ at least its my opinion on broodlords. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Feos: I wasn't specifically talking about the tech switching aspect, this is dependent on your scouting abilities. Though it would be interesting whether such constant tech switches would be cost effective for a zerg. For example in the famous Huk vs Aria game, aria tech switches several times, but burns out eventually. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Void rays do not work at all against a Zerg that also has Infestors on the field. Even if you have like 12 VRs it only takes 2-3 fungals to root all of them in place while spammed Terrans kill them all. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On December 30 2011 16:19 Elefes wrote: Uhhhh, I think most of you completely missed ideas OP came up with. Future/Present Value are economical terms, etc. Whatever. If I get it right: BL DON'T cost 350/200, since you kinda invest 150/100 into Corruptor, and then morph BL whenever you think it's necessary. Later on in the game you have a much higher income, so casrificing 150/100 @15 minute mark is MUCH more expensive than doing so @25. Which means BL probably cost 150/100 + I2/I1* (150/150), where I1 = income rate @ when you morphed corr, I2 = income rate, when you morphed BL. Don't want to theorycraft, but I2 might be 1.5x or even 2x+ bigger then I1, which means the discounted cost of BL is probably closer to 225/175! Now compare that to toss: you get Collosus tech, and start producing them paying 300/200 for each, which means you have to delay other tech/upgrades/army for awhile. If I had an option to produce 'Lossus', which cost 150/100, instead getting more bases/army/uprgrades RIGHT NOW, and only then upgrade them into Collosus whenever I deside, I'd totally use that opportunity. Don't get me wrong, that's not whining))) It's just that due to the Zerg mechanics you can't estimate cost of buildings/units in FIXED terms. 'Real' cost doesn't matter that much for zerg, it's about opportunity cost (i.e. what should I sacrifice to do ABC right now). What's the cost of 7 roaches? Well it's cost of 7 not-freaking-mining drones, not the 7*75/25 lol. BL/Corruptors don't pop up when you starve for drones, so it's harded to explain, but hope I expressed my thoughts clearly. What if your "Lossus" was a HT without storm? What if two HT (Without storm) could be morphed into a colossus? Would you consider that to be a good opportunity? To have access to a virtually useless unit while the Robotics bay finishes building? Yeah, it could be nice to pick sentries or banshees, and it has some purposes, but for the most part, if you build it and they come for you with an army, you're going to get rolled. Realistically, you would just make the "Lossus" (HT) and right when it finishes, immediately begin building the brood lord, this delays the cost only very slightly. Zergs almost never split the cost of brood lords, the exception is occasionally when against Protoss. Some zergs get corrupters to deal with colossus, in which point I can see this argument having a -degree- or relevance. On the other hand, versus Terran or another Zerg, corrupters have no usefulness before brood lords come out, essentially ever. The game in both those instances moves along with ground vs ground, or mutalisks, and then a time comes when broodlords could be really beneficial, at which point you make a corrupter and immediately morph it into a brood lord, where the split cost is almost non-existent. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
The answer should always be broodlords, simply because ultralisks can be ridiculously hard countered. Ultralisks have their uses (esp. thanks to the ease of tech - spire > greater spire is a huge investment) but broodlords are a far more stable unit when paired with infestors. You'll never wish you didn't have broodlords, no matter the composition. Ultralisk/roach/infestor against 5 (+3) immortals and some buffer units? Those fat bastards would have been better off as zerglings. | ||
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Revelatus
United States183 Posts
 But in all seriousness, I don't think you can consider the present value of the money you invest into the corrupters simply because the corrupters have utility before they are morphed. You can use them for scouting, corruption spell, and attacking air units + colossus. The only time I would consider them to have no utility until they are morphed is if the zerg made a bunch of corrupters after spire, and then let them sit in the corner of the map until greater spire.. I think it is important to not over-make them. | ||
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[AG]AggressionGaming
Canada43 Posts
Well the first thing is the broodlord actual cost.. We have a corruptor, 150 100. Which is 2 food of wasted gas and minerals. (assuming no air) Then we have a greater spire. We won't add this into the cost. We morph the broodlord which is another 150/150. Basically that means that zerg has to run around with a 1/3rd smaller army just to get broodlords out. Most zergs lost the game right before broods hit because of this. so overall the cost for broodlords are very cheap, but the time it takes to make them destroy most zergs. Ultralisk are just terrible units, they don't do anything special that is helpful lategame zvx, and they aren't maneuverable. Every situation a ultralisk is used, broodlords are better. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On December 30 2011 20:12 Xequecal wrote: Void rays do not work at all against a Zerg that also has Infestors on the field. Even if you have like 12 VRs it only takes 2-3 fungals to root all of them in place while spammed Terrans kill them all. This would require a spread of the VRs, the same way you can spread broodlords vs the vortex. But that is pretty difficult whenever you change your position, because both units are very slow. At the engagement you still have to micro your voids to focusfire the broods and a group of spammed ITs and maybe some corrupters will get some kills. I guess you are lucky if you trade a void for a broodlord. edit: That's my (personal) answer to the OPs question, to trade one void for one broodlord. If this is possible depends on the pace of the game. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Broodlords being the most supply effective unit in the game really helps them to even this out. As for countering it with protoss it really depends. Blink with some micro works really well if zerg doesn't have a good supporting army (not enough units and especially no infestors), this typically happens if zerg tried to rush to broodlords. If zerg does have an supporting army you want to attack the broodlords by air, voidrays are quite ok but won't cut it anymore if zerg gets to really high corruptor / infestor counts, at that point you want a mothership preferrably with archons ofcourse. Some people suggest a few carriers are good too because of their long range, this way you can attack broodlords and force the corruptors in a bad position. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On December 30 2011 06:56 FeyFey wrote: broodies are nice in mirror as well. The hate comes from one unit needing micro, the other simply being a click. Though broodies allow micro, but still you see 10 broodlords die to a vortex, which should basically be something to never happen in a game. But the true cost is what they cost, the morphing cost nothing else. You could have used corruptors to prevent drops or get air dominance, so in some situation they payed for themself already, where you can't incorporate the corrupter cost for the broodlord. Calculating the teching cost to something isn't helpful. You should have a plan on how to get your high tech out, not just tech up and pray it works. For example, teching up to mutas and use them for harassment, and try to save as much minerals as possible till you reach t3, meanwhile you get the ground attack/armor upgrades. Then you add adrenal glands on t3 and use your overmins and lings to tech up to broodlords. The only interesting part should be how much extractors do you need to effectively use the tech. Because every fight messes up any timing calculation. For example ultra compositions are low gas, using 6 extractors for them is almost over the limit you should use. Unless you still need upgrades or want to do a high gas unit switch. PS: always fun to see zerg players die because they think they can win with only t3 units. And then you see 16 broodlords flying around or 12 ultras walking in a line and complain about their bank running dry so fast. You need 6gas to afford broodlord/infestors and air upgrades  | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
[AG]AggressionGaming: I wasn't asking how one stops broodlords, its a [D] thread not a [H]. A simple search reveals many text book answers. I was interested in opinions as to which one would offset the cost effectiveness of brood lords the most i.e. how do I counter brood lords while keeping an even footing on the macro front. Making 5 stargates to mass void rays against a race which can tech switch in the blink of an eye seems unwise. Your assertion that corruptors are useless isn't quite correct, they certainly see a lot of use in PvZ, but you may be correct in TvZ (this has been mentioned several times before). Ultras see a lot of use in TvZ too. Revelatus: You make a good point, but wouldn't that make the eventual brood lord cheaper since the corruptor has paid a bit off a bit of it's cost? Overmaking them would nullify this, and you would rather have something else. Felnarion: Exactly, this is imo the reason for the different unit choices in TvZ as opposed to PvZ, since broodlords are actually more expensive than ultras in this case. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
But the fact that you're ignoring the effecitveness of the unit in-game, the "direct utility" shows that this is a pointless exercise. The reasons zerg don't make ultras has nothing to do with up-front of deferred cost except partially in ZvP. The reason zerg don't make ultras is because they do not scale at all. I don't mean to say they don't scale well, i mean, they don't scale at all. 20 brood lords create a never-ending stream of broodlings that traps and pushes back the army as it kills them. 20 ultras act confused and block not only each other, but other units as well, while they fail to attack, or tank, or do anything effectively. Too often does a zerg watch his ultras flail about on a ramp as a Terran holds it, easily, losing almost nothing. In the same instance, even 5 brood lords would slowly eat the marines, marauders, away, and draw their fire, as your roaches and lings tear down the production structures that make up their wall. In fact, in that case, the zerg makes brood lords IN SPITE of the additional cost. Brood lords take longer to make, are more gas heavy, require an additional step in the build process, a step which is totally useless in that situation, and brood lords are a slower unit, leaving the base significantly more vulnerable. Further, if a drop or push kills the greater spire, no air units of ANY kind can be built for 100 in-game seconds and 200 gas, and then another 100 in-game seconds and 150 more gas before brood lords become available again. Attention is a resource in SC2, and the brood lord/corrupter must be "touched" twice in order to get your unit. It's entirely possible and common to forget to morph your brood lords, only to have them not ready as the protoss or terran pushes to your base. While this is the case for any unit, it's easy to forget to build something, there are two instances for brood lords, one for other units. In contrast, an ultra pops faster, does not require an additional step of a useless unit in a matchup and therefore additional attention after production, costs less in minerals/gas, and the tech structure builds in 1/3 the time at significantly less cost. In fact, you can get Chitinous plating AND the ultra cavern with fewer resources and less time than a greater spire. But zerg players consistently choose brood lord, why? Because it's significantly better in most cases and this HAS to be taken into account in any serious discussion about the units. That said, I believe I've revealed how you handle brood lords in an even game. Snipe the spire. If you do, Zergs will almost universally transition into ultras, because their first ultras will pop out, literally, about the same time the regular spire will finish. Chitinous plating, if they choose to get it, will finish approximately half a minute before the greater spire will be done, at which point you have multiple ultras, on the field, doing their work, in a significantly shorter time. If there's any benefit to the cost effectiveness of the brood lord in its ability to have the cost spread out, it is completely countered by the vulnurability of the tech. EDIT: I'd like to add, if I could, that the Brood Lord tech tree also appears to be the longest one of any unit in the game, requiring: Hatch > Spawning Pool > Lair > Spire/Infestation Pit > Hive > Greater Spire As opposed to Carriers or Battlecruisers Nexus > Gateway > Cybernetics Core > Stargate > Fleet Beacon CC > Barracks > Factory > Starport/Tech Lab (Switchable) > Fusion Core | ||
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Usyless
54 Posts
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EPIqFuFuFluX
United States15 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Ultralisks probably reached their peak a few months ago, back when Idra said "I always go ultralisks against protoss, they are way better than broodlords". Although this was back when infestors were useless, so Zerg didn't really have any good t3 yet ;/ Protoss can too easily dump into zealots which tear through ultralisks, and are great against banelings when gas becomes an extremely precious resource and being mineral inefficient isn't an issue, especially for protoss. Not to mention immortals and voids can be cranked out quite quickly. Ultras are too hard to be offensive with against wall-ins too (a single immortal on a ramp wrecks ultras) and turtles and cannons. I think overlord drop is way better than nydus. I think nydus has been a huge failure, although non-zergs insist on how great they are, they cost way too much and overlord drop is much better. They have a spot for some neat all-ins, but I don't think they are that viable in general play (read: not cute or all-in play, or being a pro player vs ladder). Ultra/Infestor/baneling is definitely the 'strongest' army composition for Zerg, but it's too cost inefficient, can't siege as well as broodlords, and gets countered too easily. Not to mention problems getting into the actual engagement. As for the OP - I think the best thing for Protoss to do is try to stay on somewhat even bases with Zerg, mass cannons at expos 5+, and beat BL based compositions with tons of void rays and mass gateway stalkers. BL/Infestor sucks ass when it's 8 base zerg vs 6 or 7 base protoss, but when toss is only on 4 bases vs 8 base zerg, yea, you are going to lose... just like you should. I don't really think archon toilet is a viable counter - yes, broodlords are too slow to dodge vortex which is ridiculously large (if you say dodge, I'll say lol dodge EMP pre-nerf by moving you HT bro), but Zerg should be extremely cautious against motherships and be able to FG/NP to keep it away from the broodlords and then rush a bunch of corruptors to snipe it (or spam IT's around the vortex). Keep getting bases, stay in the macro game. 99% of the time, it's not BLs you are losing to, it's the fact you are only on 4 bases against a zerg who has 6 bases. | ||
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