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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On December 30 2011 22:34 IMPrime wrote: Brood lord is generally better than ultra because brood lords can break down the front door of the opponent. Ultras are awful unless it's in the open. Utralisks are pretty good in ZvT. Ultralisk/Bane/3 infestors is pretty much unstoppable, unless he goes banshee. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On December 31 2011 04:41 Belial88 wrote: ^ And mech against protoss hasn't seen full use either, right? Ultralisks probably reached their peak a few months ago, back when Idra said "I always go ultralisks against protoss, they are way better than broodlords". Although this was back when infestors were useless, so Zerg didn't really have any good t3 yet ;/ Protoss can too easily dump into zealots which tear through ultralisks, and are great against banelings when gas becomes an extremely precious resource and being mineral inefficient isn't an issue, especially for protoss. Not to mention immortals and voids can be cranked out quite quickly. Ultras are too hard to be offensive with against wall-ins too (a single immortal on a ramp wrecks ultras) and turtles and cannons. I think overlord drop is way better than nydus. I think nydus has been a huge failure, although non-zergs insist on how great they are, they cost way too much and overlord drop is much better. They have a spot for some neat all-ins, but I don't think they are that viable in general play (read: not cute or all-in play, or being a pro player vs ladder). Ultra/Infestor/baneling is definitely the 'strongest' army composition for Zerg, but it's too cost inefficient, can't siege as well as broodlords, and gets countered too easily. Not to mention problems getting into the actual engagement. As for the OP - I think the best thing for Protoss to do is try to stay on somewhat even bases with Zerg, mass cannons at expos 5+, and beat BL based compositions with tons of void rays and mass gateway stalkers. BL/Infestor sucks ass when it's 8 base zerg vs 6 or 7 base protoss, but when toss is only on 4 bases vs 8 base zerg, yea, you are going to lose... just like you should. I don't really think archon toilet is a viable counter - yes, broodlords are too slow to dodge vortex which is ridiculously large (if you say dodge, I'll say lol dodge EMP pre-nerf by moving you HT bro), but Zerg should be extremely cautious against motherships and be able to FG/NP to keep it away from the broodlords and then rush a bunch of corruptors to snipe it (or spam IT's around the vortex). Keep getting bases, stay in the macro game. 99% of the time, it's not BLs you are losing to, it's the fact you are only on 4 bases against a zerg who has 6 bases. That assumes Protoss should be able to keep up with Zerg's bases, when that's clearly not the case. There are some split map situations where that happens but realistically if the game's even, Zerg should have the whole map when Protoss is on 4 bases. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 30 2011 20:12 Xequecal wrote: Against Protoss, Ultralisks have a hard counter (Immortals) and an extremely easily-accessible soft-counter. (Zealots) On the other hand, Broodlords have no hard-counter and the soft-counter is extremely difficult to access. (Mothership) Void rays do not work at all against a Zerg that also has Infestors on the field. Even if you have like 12 VRs it only takes 2-3 fungals to root all of them in place while spammed Terrans kill them all. Thats not really a good argument because i can counter your zealot/immortal easily with lings then you can counter them easily with colossi and in the end we reach a point at which we will see that every unit is easy to counter without support and hard to counter with support... And just to be clear. void rays are good against broodlords but as always infestor+combat unit is a very versatile combo and therefore works against most things to a certain degree. On topic: if you're just looking for ways to measure broodliords then you are fighting a lost war. a marine costs 50mins and 2zerglings cost 50mins. but with all the implied costs (raxes,techlab,reactor, shield,stim) and all the other factors that effect unit costs (build time, larva mechanic, unit behavior in certain amounts...) it is impossible to really compare them. Broodlords without mutas first cost more than broodlords as follow up to a muta strat because you have to calculate the whole spire into their costs. the same for the hivetech and the infestation pit. You can argue that they cost less supply because they cost more gas then they should... You can argue that they are more expensive than if they wete produced by terran, due to larva mechanic... cost is always a comparison and it makes little sense to compare BLs to other things if we dont even know how to exactly measure these other things/they have to be measured differently in different situations. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:02 K3Nyy wrote: That assumes Protoss should be able to keep up with Zerg's bases, when that's clearly not the case. There are some split map situations where that happens but realistically if the game's even, Zerg should have the whole map when Protoss is on 4 bases. Over half of the maps in any mappool dont allow zerg to take more than one half of the map. also it depends vastly on playstyles/compositions. Apart from terminus, calm and TDA i cant think of any maps that zerg really has the potential to take a lot of extra bases (after getting an advantage). Partly crevasse and even there splitmap is quite possible. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Utralisks are pretty good in ZvT. Ultralisk/Bane/3 infestors is pretty much unstoppable, unless he goes banshee. Siege tanks. And when Terran doesn't have siege tanks, he's lost the game. So Ultra/Bane/Infestor doesn't really help in lategame high level ZvT, because they are completely countered by something that defines the state of the game. It's like telling zerg to mass hydras in ZvP - it doesn't work because of colossi, and once all the colossi are gone, it works sure, but by then the game is already won. They are terribly cost inefficient, and aren't good siege units at all. Ultra/bane/infestor is indeed extremely fucking good as a comp, but it's not cost efficient, and doesn't do anything to break turtling terrans, usually ones who split a portion of the map, meaning you can't do shit to deny their further bases, which means the comp doesn't achieve anything for you. They can be good if your mutas or BL clean up the siege tanks, but by then, you've won, and just pure crackling or baneling would do the job better. That assumes Protoss should be able to keep up with Zerg's bases, when that's clearly not the case. There are some split map situations where that happens but realistically if the game's even, Zerg should have the whole map when Protoss is on 4 bases. Unless Zerg goes mutas (which, granted, is most of the time) or plays a mobile style like mutas or mass lings, Protoss should be only behind zerg by a base or two. If Zerg is comfortably on hive tech with an infestor group, no way a protoss with a 3+ base deficit will win. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:23 Big J wrote: Over half of the maps in any mappool dont allow zerg to take more than one half of the map. also it depends vastly on playstyles/compositions. Apart from terminus, calm and TDA i cant think of any maps that zerg really has the potential to take a lot of extra bases (after getting an advantage). Partly crevasse and even there splitmap is quite possible. I didn't mean Zerg takes Protoss' side of the map, bad choice of words sorry. But it's common to see Zerg lategame taking all their bases on their side and constantly having 3 base+ mineral income and 5 base gas income. That's not exactly "outmacroing" it's actually normal. | ||
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